Did Jews Drink Blood? (Return of the Blood Libel)

[AlienGirl]

According to a new book by history professor Ariel Toaff, medieval Jews not only sacrificed Christian children, they also used their blood as an ingredient in baking matzo (unleavened bread). In Bloody Passovers: The Jews of Europe and Ritual Murders, Toaff, son of Rabbi Elio Toaff, describes "the mutilation and crucification of a two-year-old boy to recreate Christ's execution at Pesach" near the northern Italian city of Trento. Not surprisingly his allegations have outraged quite a few people in Italy and across the world including 12 of Italy's chief Rabbis who stated in response "the only blood spilled in these stories was that of so many innocent Jews, massacred on account of unjust and infamous accusations."

More: http://blog.washingtonpost.com/offbeat/2007/02/do_jews_drink_blood.html

[Goblinmonger]

1. This is a joke, right.

Please tell me this is a joke.

[sodenoue]

5. I thought jokes were funny?

This is horse shit slander.

[skypilot]

9. His claims are based on...

...confessions "extracted by torture" during a "medieval trial" in 1475.(from the article)

[AlienGirl]

10. Sadly, this is not a joke

Every old slander and lie about Jews is being dusted off these days. :-(

Tucker

[rebel with a cause]

45. Read the article

Aliengirl, this in not particularly for you, only posted here so it will be close to the top of the thread.

The article states that "What seems to have been forgotten in the shuffle though is that Toaff is describing a "deviant sect" of fanatics some 500 years ago -- a time when all types of brutal behavior (NAFW) took place. And even if there is some truth to his claims, to consider them indicative of an entire religion would be like believing the Branch Davidians are representative of all Christians. Admitting that these events may have taken place and examining the evidence empirically is not anti-Semitic; however, believing they provide justification for centuries of genocide is."

Toaff (son of a Rabbi) himself states that the evidence might not be submissive because it came from torture, and the book is focused on history of rituals that supposedly took place during this time long ago. I don't support his claim, nor do I necessarily believe it, but if there is a chance that there were things like this happening, then he has the right to write about it. What people do not have the right to do is to judge all people of that time by what a few might have done and especially not to judge people of today by what happened in days gone by. Just look at what was done during the crusades in the name of Christianity. Children were killed then and who knows what else was done by the crusaders. By this, I am saying that none of us have a right to throw stones because if we look close enough probably all of our ancestors did things we would not be proud of.

I think it is a book that will be read by few, causing a controversy that will stirred by many to create an outrage that has little to do with the real work.

[Connie_Corleone]

2. Breaking news?

[sakabatou]

3. Here we go again...

[aquart]

4. Doesn't know much about kosher laws, does the idiot?

[AlienGirl]

13. Or about the reliability of torture as an interrogation tool.

[Warren Stupidity]

16. The only problem is that he isn't an idiot.

And before you jump all over me, google Ariel Toaff. He is in fact a published and it seems respected scholar of medieval european jewish history. His claim is that there was a small fundamentalist jewish sect that actually did carry out the ridiculous blood libel. I don't belive a word of it, but you cannot dismiss this guy as simply an idiot.

[BonnieJW]

26. Sure you can.

Pat Robertson graduated from Yale. He's an idiot.

[sharp_stick]

6. Unbelievable that this shit continues today

:freak:
:banghead:

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[manic expression]

8. Is this 2007 or 1937?

Why is this crap still being spewed?

[AlienGirl]

12. I ask myself that daily.

[deutsey]

11. Bases his claims on confessions "extracted by torture" in 1475

"Toaff, a professor at Bar Illan University, near Tel Aviv, bases his claims on confessions 'extracted by torture' during a 'medieval trial' in 1475. Suffice to say, this might not be the most reliable source, and even Toaff only goes so far as to say the accusations "might have been true.' "

Well, that settles it. :eyes:

[Howardx]

39. "might have been true.' "

is worth a whole book?

[John Gauger]

14. What?

Jews have historically thought that the human body was unclean. When the Greeks met them they were horrified by the Jews' assertions that the human body was vile and dirty (the ancient Greeks basically worhipped the human form.) Jews would never drink blood. They thought is was unholy. As Lewis Black points out, if Jews ever kidnapped a Gentile, the last thing they would have done was kill him. They need somebody to burn shit and pick up twigs on the Sabbath, which they were not allowed to do.

[bobthedrummer]

15. Fwiw, AlienGirl I alerted on this because you are a moderator

this isn't LBN and might be considered information warfare.

[AlienGirl]

18. "Information warfare"? What does that mean?

This is a very disturbing story, and as far as I can tell has not yet hit CNN/other TV news sources, and has not yet been discussed here.

It is certainly more important than whether Anna Nicole choked on her vomit or died of a heart attack, as claims like this guy's tend to result in very bad things happening.

Tucker

[bobthedrummer]

20. Yep-this is a review of a book isn't it? You are a moderator, is this LBN?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x71919

[AlienGirl]

23. I am not an LBN mod, and have never started an LBN thread before.

This is from a newspaper, and it's what showed up when I typed "blood libel" into Google News Search after someone told me such claims were being made.

Tucker

[Poll_Blind]

38. FYI, there is a page which comes up with a big stopsign on it.

  That has the rules for the LBN forum. It looks like this:

Know the NEW Rules for Posting in the Latest Breaking News Forum!

Thousands of people use the DU Latest Breaking News forum as their primary source for news. Please do not "dilute" the forum by starting threads that are not news.

Please be aware of the following restrictions when posting in Latest Breaking News:

(and there are a bunch of rules)

  It's usually a good idea to read those before posting in LBN.

PB

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Poll_Blind]

35. Why are you bringing anti-Semitic rhetoric into this thread? n/t

PB

[bobthedrummer]

21. dupe of post 20, self-delete

[EVDebs]

17. Did the Saudis pay for this story ? nt

[Lilith Velkor]

54. Mystery solved. n/t

:eyes:

[MidwestTransplant]

19. I don't think Midieval Jews were doing much persecuting of Christians

[Bicoastal]

22. This guy is welcome to my blood....

...because its BOILING hot right now!

You take a few confessions extracted from innocent jews under torture and turn it into a historical account?! A son of a RABBI would this?!

Worse yet, comments posted at the bottom of the story lead one directly to blatantly anti-Semetic, Holocaust-denying website. Man oh man, fanatics of all stripes will have a FIELD day with this tripe, and probably already are. WTF?!

A cult of Jews sacrificing Christian children--just, just goddamn this guy, and goddamn anyone who listens to these goddamn lies!!!

Sorry, eloquence escapes me right now.

[JoDog]

27. revival of old slander

The "Blood libel" as it was called, was a frequent feature of pogoms and witch trials in medieval Europe. The revival of this idea, which makes absolutely no sense in terms of what Jews in that time period believed, is reprehensible and disgusting.

I suppose since thousands of men and women admitted under torture that they could fly, had sex with the devil and could change shape into animals at will makes that all true too, right? Take a look at some of the torture methods the various Inquisistions and witch hunts used, and you'll understand why these people were willing to admit to almost any thing. Quite often, they just told their accusors what they knew they wanted to hear.

For instance, when the black death hit in the 1340's, many people blamed the Jews, accusing them of using demonic magic to create and spread the disease. Under torture, some people admitted just that, agreeing with officials that they had used methods of biological warfare that would remain science fiction until well into the modern era. Of course, the whole premise was ridiculous--Jews died of the plague too.

It is one thing if a researcher is trying to figure out how the blood libel got started. It is another thing to say it is all true.

[RaleighNCDUer]

31. I've always thought the blood libel started much earlier, in the

1st or 2nd century, when Romans or other pagans saw no discernable difference between Jews and early Christians - those Christians who "drank the blood of Jesus". I understand that was one of the charges leveled against Christians by Nero - they induldged in human sacrafice and drank blood.

When Rome adopted Christianity, it kept the blood libel, but attached it to Jews, instead.

Just my theory.

[Goblinmonger]

24. Thank you Mel Gibson

for making this kind of shit mainstream again. Passion of the Christ indeed.

[Lurking Dem]

28. Why is an Italian academic's book

about medieval Jews moved to IP?

Talk about conflating Jews with Israel.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

29. This is where the "jews drink blood" comes from, (i'm a jew)

The jews drinking the blood of babies stuff is based on some circumsision methods used is some extremely ultra-orthodox communities in which the rabbi literally sucks up the blood from the wound.

I can't imagine this is done in America - even among the ultra-orthodox.

It was probably more common centuries ago, and the observation of which is probably the root of the myth. They certainly were not sacraficing babies for blood though.

[BayCityProgressive]

30. yuck.

that is disturbing. Definately nothing that would justify any of this anti-semitic crap though!

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

32. I don't think too many people are getting worked up about "blood libel" these days,

It's all about Israel, for whom I have no use.

[Poll_Blind]

33. Actually this is apparently common in New York. It hit the major media when...

...a rabbi with herpes transmitted it to a number of baby boys (oral to genital contact) that he had circumcised traditionally and it caused the death of one of three baby boys who contracted herpes from him. I'm sure it's still practiced in this fashion to some extent, at least in very traditional orthodox Jewish communities. This the traditional orthodox method of performing circumcision, not an aberrant deviation.

  In very close-knit religious communities in America sometimes things go on which we would...not expect would go on.

  The article I remember reading was from sometime in 2005.

PB

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

43. disgusting,

I was able to find that in Lexis-Nexis, just repulsive. Boy am I glad my family has been secular for five generations.

but my word, how would such a man of god get herpes... must have been that toilet seat at JFK huh?

[ikojo]

40. Metzizah b'peh is done in the US in very orthodox

communities. There was an article in the New York Times a few months ago about babies who died because they contracted a disease from the mohel.

Sick practice.


http://jewishwhistleblower.blogspot.com/2005/02/ny-officials-bar-rabbi-yitzchok.html

NY Officials Bar Rabbi Yitzchok Fischer from Circumcision

Wed Feb 2, 2005 04:46 PM ET
By Larry Fine
NEW YORK (Reuters) - New York City health officials have gone to court to stop a rabbi from performing a type of ritual circumcision they believe may have led to the death of a baby boy from herpes.

The baby was one of three infants found to have contracted herpes simplex virus after being circumcised by Rabbi Yitzchok Fischer, who used his mouth to draw blood from the infant's wound, a traditional Orthodox practice during the bris, or religious circumcision.

[Shaktimaan]

44. Actually...

The ultra-orthodox in some areas have not yet abandoned metzitza b'peh. There was a scandal a few years ago here in Williamsburg, (Brooklyn) when a Moyel gave two kids herpes. I can't believe this practice is legal.

I feel so bad for those fucking kids.

[LiberalFighter]

34. Why would THESE Jews want to recreate Christ's execution?

The last I knew Jesus was not part of the Jewish belief.

[sabbat hunter]

36. well jesus

was a jew.


but i think the rumor came about from the lie that the jews cruxified jesus. when in reality it was the romans

[ama]

37. o dear

are you off your meds? think happy and love bob

[geek tragedy]

41. Stupid thesis to rely on torture confessions. From what I understand, the

Jewish blood libel originated from Jewish families sacrificing themselves, including the children, when faced with alternative fates at the hands of rampaging Christobarbarians during the First Crusade.

[Lithos]

42. Poor writing

This does not represent any traditional or even moderately associated line of Jewish tradition that I'm aware of. Even the Satmar Rabbi's who went to Iran have a stronger claim to mainstream Judaism than any who would violate such significant Jewish prohibitions involving killing and blood.

Prof Toaff should have known who would latch onto such writings to try and spread their hateful memes and is extremely irresponsible given the lack of precautions framing his point than he did. Even if there is a kernel of truth beyond the fantasies obtained by torture, which is a big "if" that I think requires a tremendous leap of faith to suggest, he should have noted just how deviant and abhorrent such behavior would have been from the vast mainstream of Judaism.

L-

[Porcupine]

46. Please can we drop this? It represents the worst of libel's

that came from the inquisition hundreds of years ago.

We actually have real problems to address.

[Behind the Aegis]

47. Bar-Ilan historian's allegations on blood libels spark outrage

A Bar-Ilan University historian has raised a storm by alleging in a new book that some blood libels - accusations that Jews killed Christians in ritual murders to add their blood to matza and wine on Passover - may be based on real ceremonies in which the blood of Christians was actually used.

"Pasque di Sangue," by Ariel Toaff, was just released in Italy. It shocked the country's small Jewish community - in part because he is the son of Elio Toaff, the chief rabbi who welcomed Pope John Paul II to Rome's synagogue two decades ago in a historic visit that helped ease Catholic-Jewish relations after centuries of tensions.

The author, who is considered an international expert on Italian Jewry, delves into allegations that resulted in torture, show trials and executions, periodically devastating Europe's Jewish communities.

Historians have long dismissed the allegations as racism, but blood libel stories remain popular in anti-Semitic literature.


more...

[Lithos]

48. Very good article

I thought this passage added significant detail:

Monsignor Iginio Rogger, a church historian who in the 1960s led the investigation into the murder of a 2-year-old Simon of Trento, for which 16 Jews were hanged, said many scholars have concurred that the confessions were completely unreliable.

"I wouldn't want to be in shoes, answering for this to historians who have seriously documented this case," he said. "The judges used horrible tortures, to the point where the accused pleaded: 'Tell us what you want us to say.'"

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Scurrilous]

50. Toaff to retract claim that Jews killed Christians for their blood

<snip>

"Professor Ariel Toaff, who 10 days ago ordered a halt to the distribution of his controversial book about the use of human blood by Jewish communities in the Middle Ages, plans to clarify his positions in a scientific journal, stressing that Jews did not murder Christian children for their blood.

In his book "Pasque di Sangue" , Toaff discusses at length the possibility that Jews murdered Christian children to use their blood in religious rituals, and argues that confessions to such acts extracted under torture should not be dismissed.

Toaff uses as an example the blood libel of Trent in 1475, and suggests that Jews did murder the young child, Simon, who is at the center of the affair.

He now wants to make it clear that the Jews of Trent did not murder Simon or any other Christian children for ritual purposes. Toaff will also make it clear that the blood of dead Christians could not possibly have been used, whether in food, beverages or for medicinal or magical purposes, because the blood traded by Jews and Christians at the time came from living donors, not corpses. His conclusion is that Jews could not possibly have murdered Christian children for their blood."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/830711.html

[Shaktimaan]

51. He must have been getting slammed.

Let the charges of Jewish media control and censorship begin!

[dottym]

52. i've actually seen a video from the mideast

of a jew cutting the christian child's throat.

this is really sick shit. it's mind boggling that people would believe this.

[cubs4life]

53. Why does anything pertaining to Jews end up in the I/P forum?

Why does DU continue to connect all things Jewish with Israel?