Israel, U.S. May Shun Palestinian Gov't

[AnOhioan]

JERUSALEM (AP) -- The U.S. and Israel agreed ahead of a three-way meeting with the Palestinians to shun any new Palestinian government that does not renounce violence, recognize Israel and accept existing peace agreements, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said Sunday.

The so-called Quartet of Mideast negotiators - the U.S., European Union, U.N. and Russia - has set these demands as a condition for lifting crippling international sanctions. The platform of a new Palestinian power-sharing agreement, reached in Saudi Arabia earlier this month, speaks only of "respect" for existing peace deals.

Snip

"A Palestinian government that won't accept the Quartet conditions won't receive recognition and cooperation," Olmert said. "The American and Israeli positions are totally identical on this issue."

Snip

Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas, who has been charged with putting together the next government, said the Palestinians must hold firm against international criticism. "We stand by President (Abbas) in defending this agreement and facing outside pressure, whether from the U.S. administration of others," Haniyeh told reporters outside his office in Gaza City.

More at http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/ISRAEL_PALESTINIANS_US?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=HOME

[ohio2007]

1. Hamas still calls for the wiping Israel off the map

from the posted article link;


... Abbas had tried during months of coalition talks to press Hamas to agree to abide by existing peace accords - something that would imply recognition of Israel - but yielded after multiple rounds of deadly Palestinian infighting.
.....



negotiations are not going back to "square one" bc of this refusal of recognition,
the starting point will be more like going back to negative square 15.

Remember,before answering, say to yourself;
"What would Obama say about Israels position ?"

[sellitman]

8. I noticed...

None of the good Liberals who disagree with your post have the courage to explain why AND answer the question.

They all use a straw man to knock it down.

[ohio2007]

11. Speaking of straw men, recent history is a subject best left ignored

A vote for Hamas ( by the Palestinians due to the death of Arafat ) was actually a vote against the politics as usual of Yassar Arafats party.

On a closely related side note, I'll bet the people of Lebanon understand the term straw man.
This section of this link titled;
Occupied Lebanon (1982 AD - 1990 AD)
http://www.lgic.org/en/history_lebanon1982.php
is a good springboard to study up on recent history of Israels neighbors. Some of the characters are not that far removed from what created the current situation that we see today.
I think people like Obama understand that no matter which party controls the oval office,there is no hidden magic wand behind presidential portraits to cure all that's wrong with the world.

[Zhade]

17. So far, you're the only person who's responded to that post.

Talk about a strawman!

[eagler]

26. There should be no compromise on Israel's right to exist

[The Stranger]

22. Israel still calls for the wiping Hamas off the map

Now that that is resolved, are Chimp and Chucky going to push for peace, or is this another charade?

[Behind the Aegis]

23. And yet, Hamas is not a country of millions.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hogwyld]

3. Shhhhh

You're going to upset the "Israel is alway right" people.

[ashiebr]

4. Palestinian Government

Israel and the US obviously retain the right to veto any Palestinian government they don't like the look of.

Democracy in action!

[ohio2007]

6. You 're talking about people like Obama ?

Sen. Obama: U.S. must help Israel defend itself
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2733615&mesg_id=2733615

the middle east "in a nutshell"
http://www.conceptwizard.com/nutoo/nutshell3.html

I'm guessing it is a zionist propaganda website ;)

[cali]

10. Fuck, it upsets me and I'm certainly not an "Israel is always right"

person. Oh, and your comment is utterly mindless snark. Saying that Israel wants all of the WB is no better than saying Palestinians want to push Israel into the sea.

But hey, go ahead and support hateful crap. It certainly wouldn't be the first time.

For the record, I think not recognizing the Unity Gov is wrong and counterproductive.

[wellst0nev0ter]

12. . . .

'Outposts' thriving in the West Bank

By RAVI NESSMAN, Associated Press Writer Sat Feb 17, 11:31 AM ET

BRUCHIN, West Bank - With its playgrounds, identical houses and manicured flower beds, Bruchin looks like any placid Israeli suburb. Except that Bruchin is not supposed to exist.

Bruchin is among more than 100 West Bank outposts never officially authorized by the Israeli government. And Israel's repeated commitments to freeze settlement construction haven't hampered Bruchin's transformation from a cluster of trailers less than eight years ago into a thriving community of 380 people, girded by government supplied roads, electricity and water.

"Normally, when you think of an outpost you think of a water tower. This is a real town," said Amishai Shav-Tal, one of Bruchin's founders.

Unlike the full-blown settlements that have been built in the face of international criticism, the outposts have never gone through the public process of gaining official government approval. Many of them began as little more than a cell phone tower or trailer erected by settlers on a West Bank hilltop to establish a presence there, a seed they used to quickly establish a new community.

The outposts infuriate the Palestinians, who see them as part of a plan to strengthen the Jewish grip on land they want for an independent state.

With the international community focusing its disapproval mainly on the traditional settlements, Israel has managed to quietly plant a slew of the outposts across the West Bank, say Palestinians, Israeli critics and even the settlers themselves.

"This is the game that the government always played with the settlers: 'You will do it, we will turn a blind eye and then one day when we are politically able to, we will legalize it,'" said Dror Etkes, who monitors settlements for the Israel's Peace Now movement.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070217/ap_on_re_mi_ea/west_bank_birth_of_a_settlement

[cali]

15. Yes, I know about this. In fact, this article

has been discussed in I/P, and as I'll repeat what I said there: It's inexcusable. But that doesn't make the case that Israel is determined to permanently annex the WB. I could point to the fact that Israel has exchanged land for peace in the past. It's a complex situation, and simplifying it, does no one any favors. And a quote from one person isn't the gospel.

Israel's land grabs are patently illegal and immoral, but they don't prove that the current Israeli Government- let alone the Israeli people- are set on establishing "Greater Israel".

[Zhade]

18. Yes, they 'traded back' land they STOLE through the illegal settlements.

They don't exactly deserve a medal for that.

As far as a greater Israel - ever heard of "A Clean Break: A Strategy for Securing the Realm"?

[JohnLocke]

24. Nice antisemitic slur.

"According to some anti-Zionist and Islamist rhetoric, Greater Israel refers to an extremist Zionist conspiracy to stretch the borders of the state of Israel from the Nile to the Euphrates according to the kingdom of David in the above mentioned verse from the Bible...The term is not used in this sense in mainstream Israeli discourse, and nowadays no prominent Zionist or Israeli intellectual or political figure openly advocates pursuing such borders."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Israel

"It has been alleged by some groups that the blue stripes on the Israeli flag actually represent the rivers Nile and Euphrates, which some Zionist thinkers (such as Avraham Stern and Israel Eldad) had claimed as the boundaries of Eretz Yisrael, the land promised to the Jews by God. <7> Those making this allegation insist that the flag "secretly" represents the desire of Jews to conquer all of the land between the Nile and Euphrates rivers, which would involve conquering and ruling over much of Egypt, all of Jordan, and some of Syria and Iraq. Yasser Arafat also made the allegation, <8> and repeatedly tied this notion to the stripes on the Israeli flag. <9> <10> Both Zionist and anti-Zionist authors have debunked the claim that the stripes on the flag represent territorial ambitions. Daniel Pipes notes "In fact, the blue lines derive from the design on the traditional Jewish prayer shawl", <11> and Danny Rubenstein points out that "...Arafat... added, in interviews that he gave in the past, that the two blue stripes on the Israeli flag represent the Nile and the Euphrates... No Israeli, even those who demonstrate understanding for Palestinian distress, will accept the... nonsense about the blue stripes on the flag, which was designed according to the colors of the traditional tallit (prayer shawl)..."<10> Persistent critic of Israel and Zionism Israel Shahak is equally explicit."

Saqr Abu Fakhr, an Arab writer, has also spoken out against this idea. He demonstrates that the "Nile to Euphrates" claim regarding the flag is one of seven popular misconceptions and/or myths about Jews which, despite being unfounded and having abundant evidence refuting them, continue to circulate in the Arab world. <12>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Israel#.22Nile_to_Euphrates.22_controversy

Googling the phrase does indeed bring up a lot of paranoid sites...

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-US&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&q=Nile+to+the+Euphrates&sa=N&tab=nw

[ChairmanAgnostic]

5. we instruct them to form a unity government,

and then Condi bitches when they do?

[hack89]

9. No

we asked them to renounce violence and recognize Israel. Why should Israel recognize them if they don't recognize Israel. Seems pretty straight forward to me - what possible reason should the Palestinian government have for not recognizing Israel?

[wellst0nev0ter]

13. Can The Palestinians Ask Israelis To Renounce Violence

And recognize their right to exist as a state not drawn by Israel?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

14. THANK YOU.

exactly.

[Zhade]

19. Yes. Unfortunately, the rightwing Israeli government has already ignored calls for peace...

...from Israeli citizens.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

21. it will only get worse.

when Hamas joined up, it threatened the region with peace, and Israel can't have that. They called and plotted with George, and Condi showed up with her shiny shoes, ready to insult Abbas until he would crack.

[HuffleClaw]

7. bwhahaahahhahahhaaa

oh sure. why not simply have israel and the us APPOINT a palestinian 'government'?

[Zhade]

16. "accept existing peace agreements" - ah, there's the rub.

See, the first two are no-brainers. Israel's not going to vanish, and renouncing the unjustified violence on both sides is necessary.

But that the Palestinian government should be forced to accept the rightwing Israeli government's expansionist maps that steal water and land as a peace plan is going too far. There must be peace, but further theft of Palestinian land is not an acceptable start.

[The Magistrate]

27. Public Acceptance By Hamas Of Existing Agreements, Sir

Is the bare minimum that can be accepted as surety the organization has actually recognized the exitence of Israel and foresworn violence against it.

So long as this is refused, signifigant alteration of the current state of affairs will remain impossible.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

20. a couple of points

a) This is the first time in 6 BLOODY YEARS that the US has done something about the Palestinian Israeli conflict. To make things worse, who do we send but Ms. Anti-Midas Touch herself.
b) The US told Abbas that they needed one unified government, meaning that Palestine had to speak with one voice. Abbas, after much bloodshed, hard work and doing something that appears to be missing in our new and improved State Department, he NEGOTIATED with Hamas, brought them in and got them to accept the current framework and treaties already in force. That was huge and potentially a great step.
c) Israel cannot stand the idea that its demands might actually be met, so it added more and more and more demands, while it continued to allow futher incursions into Palestinian territory. And continued with a horrific wall construction. And continued to harass palestinians on their own land AND continued to shoot children in the streets.
d) Condi, probably the worst excuse for a diplomat sine Atilla the Hun, made things worse. But this is not the first time that she blew it in this region. She egged on Israel to attack Lebanon and we all know how well that went.

This is what happens when AIPAC and AEI make your foreign policy. Blood, death, apartheid and pointless suffering.

[Shaktimaan]

28. ??

She egged on Israel to attack Lebanon

What are you talking about dude? You think Israel invaded Lebanon over the summer because Condi egged them on? For real?
OK, but how did Condi get Hezbollah to attack Israel first? Seriously, if this went down like you're suggesting then we should all be giving Condi much more credit. To my knowlege Israel has never gone to war because of peer pressure.

Israel cannot stand the idea that its demands might actually be met, so it added more and more and more demands, while it continued to allow futher incursions into Palestinian territory. And continued with a horrific wall construction.

What new demands did they add?

Do you actually believe that the wall was built to stymie the peace process and not to reduce the amount of suicide bomb attacks on Israel? Why would Israel choose such an expensive and negative publicity generating way to scuttle the peace process if that was really their intention? When the PLO was ready to deal Israel certainly didn't build a wall then, when peace looked likely. They helped create the PA instead and transferred authority to parts of the territories.

But now that Oslo is dead, Hamas is refusing to recognize Israel or even abide by peace treaties signed by their last administration and by every measure the peace process is deader than a doornail, NOW Israel is so afraid of the Palestinians meeting their basic requirements for initial negotiations that they built a billion shekel wall to inconvenience the Palestinians to such a degree that the vibrant, sure-to-succeed peace process will finally be halted forever?

:spray:

[breakaleg]

29. When the PLO was ready to deal, Israel was busy expanding the settlements.

[MasonJar]

25. Stellar way to bring peace to the region.