Israeli Blockade Unlawful Despite Gaza Border Breach

[Tom Joad]

Israel/Gaza: Israeli Blockade Unlawful Despite Gaza Border Breach
Indiscriminate Palestinian Rocket Attacks Violate International Law

(New York, January 26, 2008) – This week’s Gaza-Egypt border breach temporarily eased the humanitarian impact of Israel’s blockade, but Israel as the occupying power remains responsible for the well-being of Gaza’s 1.4 million residents, Human Rights Watch said today. Gazans remain almost completely dependent on Israel for fuel, electricity, medicine, food, and other essential commodities.
Human Rights Watch also called upon Palestinian armed groups in Gaza to stop their indiscriminate rocket attacks into populated areas in Israel in violation of international humanitarian law. The attacks have wounded 82 Israeli civilians in the past six months.

“Israel’s rightful self-defense against unlawful rocket attacks does not justify a blockade that denies civilians the food, fuel and medicine needed to survive, a policy amounting to collective punishment,” said Joe Stork, acting director of Human Rights Watch’s Middle East division. “Gazans can’t turn on the lights, get tap water, buy enough food, or earn a living without Israel’s consent.”

Some Israeli officials have suggested that the temporary breach in the Egypt-Gaza border means that Israel has relinquished all responsibility for Gaza. “We need to understand that when Gaza is open to the other side, we lose responsibility for it,” said Israeli Deputy Defense Minister Matan Vilnai on January 24, 2008. “So we want to disconnect from it.”

Israel withdrew its military forces and settlers from the Gaza Strip in 2005, but it still controls Gaza’s airspace, territorial waters, and land borders – with the exception this week of the Rafah border area with Egypt. Israel is Gaza’s primary supplier of electricity, which is essential for water availability and sewage treatment. In addition, Israel controls Gaza’s telecommunications network, its population registry, and its customs and tax revenues. Israeli security forces have frequently re-entered Gaza at will.

“The sudden opening of Gaza’s border with Egypt has changed, for the time being, only one of the many indices of Israel’s control over essential aspects of life in Gaza,” Stork said. “Israel remains responsible for the well-being of Gaza’s civilians.” ... more at http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/01/26/isrlpa17891_txt.htm

[Jim Sagle]

1. "Israel as the occupying power"

Who are these clowns? Rip van Winkle wannabes?

[breakaleg]

2. Perhaps you missed the part in bold? Or maybe you didn't read it at all. nt

[Tom Joad]

3. All lies and jest; still a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest...

li la li.....

[Tom Joad]

4. ain't it interesting that human rights organizations, humanitarian

aid organizations, Israeli peace groups, Palestinian peace groups are held in such contempt in these parts by some, on a consistent basis.

[mac2]

5. The world thinks it's genocide

All but the British, Israelis, and Americans don't. Those who are Neo Cons don't think it's a "bad thing" to strave, roll over with bulldozers, withhold their own money, murder old men, women, and children. They are Islamic mostly aren't they disposible?

It's OK to kill Christians in Lebanon too.

Where is their moral compus? Yes Israel says it's in danger when it is the land stealer and aggressor. How come no one else in the world does? Could it be because they have nuclear weapons and no one else does in the area? Do ya think?

[Violet_Crumble]

8. The world thinks what Israel's doing is genocide? I don't think so...

I don't know where yr located, but I'm in a part of the world that isn't Britain, Israel or the US, and I don't think it's genocide. In fact, none of the parties involved in the I/P conflict are or have committed genocide. Israel's treatment of the Palestinian people violates international law, but it's not genocide, not even if the more loose definitions of the term are used...

[mac2]

13. Definition of genocide

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

[eyl]

15. Your point being? n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

18. I'm familiar with the definition, which is why I can safely say genocide doesn't apply in this case.

The most important words in that definition are 'with intent to destroy'. There's another few words that are nearly as important, but I'll wait until someone stumbles in trying to claim that genocide is being carried out against Israel before I shoot that argument down with those words.

Wiki does go on to outline the eight stages of genocide. While no genocide is the same, those eight stages are common to all genocides, and they just aren't there when it comes to the I/P conflict. I can argue kind of convincingly when it comes to some events that wouldn't commonly be viewed as genocide that they were genocide, but the I/P conflict isn't one of them...

[ana89]

30. 'with intent to destory'

'with intent to destroy' - Palestine has been almost completely wiped off the map ... doesn't that mean that there was an 'intent to destroy'? Or are you going to tell me that it was accidental?

[Violet_Crumble]

35. But there isn't an intent to destroy involved in it...

When yr looking at something and trying to decide whether it's genocide or not (and I really hope this is what people do, and not decide first it's genocide and then try to massage things to try to make it fit the definition)....

The motivation of Israel hasn't been the destruction in whole or in part of a population. The motivation has been a territorial one. Israel has tried to ignore that the Palestinian people were there, and would have preferred them not to be there at all, and during the Nakba did engage in what we now know as ethnic cleansing, but the intent to destroy the population wasn't what drove Israel then or now. What's been done to the Palestinian people can rightly be called a lot of things, including brutal and oppressive, and when it comes to the Palestinians of Gaza right now, it's clearly collective punishment, but it's not genocide...

To give you an example of how the intent to destroy has worked in a genocide I'm reasonably knowledgeable about, and that's the genocide of the Tasmanian Aboriginals. The official government policy which came about as a response to the spearing of livestock by Aboriginals was the rounding up and slaughtering of Aboriginals in areas where there was European settlement, and for no other reason than they were Aboriginials. The policy was accompanied by language dehumanising the Aboriginals, and they were referred to as 'vermin', 'hideous to humanity' etc. They were used as 'sport' and I've read some gruesome accounts of the killing of Aboriginals by settlers who treated their killing as a sport to be proud of....

[ana89]

41. .

I honestly never thought that what Israel did could be considered genocide until I saw that some people here were saying that it might be. I'm just trying to figure it out ... so the definition says that the main objective is the intentional destruction of a national group. The creation of Israel means that Palestine must be in part or in whole destroyed, no?

[LeftishBrit]

16. No they do not think this is genocide

These organizations think it's oppressive and against human rights.

Not that it's genocide. Using the term for everything that is seen as wrong or against human right trivializes its use for real genocide (e.g. Darfur, Rwanda).

The UN have *not* called it genocide; and they are certainly not biased in favour of Israel.


'It's OK to kill Christians in Lebanon too.'

Who says so?

Look: I am speaking here as someone who *opposed* what I considered as the Israeli over-reaction in Lebanon - and especially the use of cluster bombs - so I'm not even particularly defending them here. But facts are facts:

(a) The Israelis were not directly attacking Christians, certainly not *as* Christians. They were attacking Hezbollah, who are an Islamic organization. Not that the religion matters all that much, but one might as well get the facts correct.

(b) Not directly related to the Second Lebanon War but a relevant point: The Lebanese have not exactly been wonderful in their treatment of Palestinians over the years. In the Sabra/Shatila case, the *direct* perpetrators were Lebanese militia, not Israelis. Sharon stood by and let it happen, and was thus implicated IMO, and should have been kicked out in disgrace and never have been allowed to hold public office again - but he wasn't the direct perpetrator. Over the years, the Lebanese have kept the Palestinians in refugee camps, and often acted very violently toward them. So if we're to condemn the Israeli government and military for their treatment of Palestinians, why not also condemn the Lebanese government and military for their frequently worse treatment of Palestinians?


'Israel says it's in danger when it is the land stealer and aggressor. How come no one else in the world does? Could it be because they have nuclear weapons and no one else does in the area? Do ya think?'

Do you really think that everyone in the entire world holds the same view that Israel isn't in any danger and is the only aggressor? As regards nukes, I'm not happy about *anyone* in the region (or anywhere) having nukes, but nukes are unlikely to be a real defense for Israel IMO, because if they nuked a neighbour, their own country would probably be destroyed by the nuclear fallout. (Same goes for Iran.) Nukes between neighbours aren't just 'mutually assured destruction'; they are generally 'self assured destruction'.

[Vegasaurus]

17. Dude, you are deluded if you think that this is a genocide

We have a real genocide or two going on in the world at the moment. Go get all hot and bothered about one of those, where hundreds of thousands of people are being murdered and displaced. Take a look at Darfur. That is a genocide.

[mac2]

19. Darfur is genocide but not Palestine?

Same reason for death and destruction...religion and resources...power.

[LeftishBrit]

21. The reasons are irrelevant. What is important is what is done.

If there is a serious attempt to exterminate an entire ethnic group, and a large proportion are indeed killed, that is genocide.

I don't see that a large proportion of Palestinians are being killed, or even targeted for killing. (Or Israelis, if it comes to that.)

Do you really think that what's happening in Darfur is no worse than what's happening in I/P?

[mac2]

24. Over the years no.

[Vegasaurus]

27. Oh really?

There are estimates of as many as 200-300,000 murdered and more than 2.2 million people displaced. Would you like to compare photographs of conditions in both places? Makes the pictures of the new motorcycle driving, refrigerator toting Palestinians look like they live in paradise.

John Prendergast, who was director of African Affairs at the National Security Council for the Clinton White House, says that these tribal blacks have "been subjected to one of the most brutal campaigns of ethnic cleansing that Africa has ever seen."

[Usrename]

32. Oh yeah, and what about the million dead Iraqi civilians?

Not to mention the two million that have fled and the other two million that are in refugee camps (or concentration camps, all nice and sorted by ethnic identity)?

And the five million Iraqi orphans.

[Usrename]

33. Cool.

If you want to make this particular comparison, do you think it is a good idea to send 30 billion of US taxpayer dollars to the Sudanese military in order to assist and support them in their slaughter, like we do with Israel? Or would that be a BAD idea?

And another thing about the numbers, since you seem to be stumbling over this one too, if a tribe has only 100 people and you wipe them all out, or if you move them from their home and scatter them to the winds, it is an act of genocide.

Really!

[Violet_Crumble]

36. Sorry, but yr post has to be one of the most stupid comments I've seen on genocide...

Would you like to compare photographs of conditions in both places? Makes the pictures of the new motorcycle driving, refrigerator toting Palestinians look like they live in paradise.

Yep, if someone owns a fridge or a motorbike, they can't become a victim of genocide with those powerful anti-genocide symbols. Do I need to put a sarcasm thingy on the end of this for you? I hope not...

on edit: Living conditions aren't an indicator of genocide, btw. If changed living conditions was then there's a few genocides that wouldn't be viewed by you as genocide as the living conditions of the majority of the targetted group didn't change (eg many Australian aboriginals during the colonial genocide, as they still lived the same way and were slaughtered when they ventured into areas of white settlement)...

[Vegasaurus]

38. I repeat

would you like to compare photographs from the Sudan and for Kenya this week, with Gaza?

I think the persecuted people in Darfur would be delighted to put up with the suffering of the Gazans, even without their televisions or motorcycles.

[pelsar]

31. just out of curiosity...

so is it just the Palestinians that are on the receiving end of thsi genocide...or are there other groups in the world as well......

[LeftishBrit]

39. Just wow.

Is there ANY conflict or policy in recent years that you think is as bad as the I/P situation?

What about China's occupation of Tibet for example? Or Russia's of Chechnya? (Neither of which I would call genocide by the way.) What about Bosnia - which I would call genocide?

[mac2]

42. The Palestinian genocide has to be measured to other

ones in our world? They are all wrong. They are genocide for land, resources, profit, and power.

[pelsar]

43. may i suggest a dictionary?

or at least you should explain that your definition of genocide is not consistent with websters, UN, and any other official body..and that you've taken it upon yourself to redefine words.....

[LeftishBrit]

44. Do you consider all war or violence to be genocide?

[Vegasaurus]

45. You need a quick lesson in history

seriously

[eyl]

11. Given that they make pronouncements on international law

without apparently knowing what it is (such as the difference between an occupation and a siege)...

[mac2]

14. They turn a blind eye

[Violet_Crumble]

9. If it wasn't in the title, then Jimbo didn't read it n/t

[Jim Sagle]

23. Read what?

:beer:

[mac2]

6. George Bush style occupying power

Monkey see monkey do?

[mac2]

40. Gaza people demand help

http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_2896.shtml

[azurnoir]

7. In the past few days

I have read a number of comments on how Gaza is not Israel's "problem", fight, responsibility, whatever- I would be willing to agree with that if Israel ends the air and sea blockade, as I have said in the past then Israel can lock off all it's and build a wall to the moon if that is what it takes for at least some Israeli's to "feel safe" but as long as the blockades remain Israel is stuck.

[kayecy]

10. I agree but ........

I agree but having made a million people destitute does Israel not have some moral responsibility for helping them recover, even if it is only financial help?

Who knows, an offer of financial help from Israel might just be the key to opening the Gordian knot.

[mac2]

12. Religion and greed for oil has kept this part of the world

in war and crisis much too long. If they were secular governments they could be a very powerful area. Right now there is little they offer the world but disaster and death. Peace and prosperity is the answer. Some of them had that post Bush.

Too many Americans want their religion to win sending money and political influence. They don't live there under fear and war do they? They are "couch warriors" mostly.

[azurnoir]

22. Israel should release some of the

tax revenues it is withholding, it will release some to Abu Mazen with strings however-no feeding the Gazans for example.
While Israel may have a moral responsibility to Gaza and financial help may go a ways towards mending relations, it is a dream that to me has almost no hope of realization.

[mac2]

25. Whose fault is it for bombing the oil storage in Lebanon?

and causing a huge oil spill on their beautiful beaches? That should be an enviornmental crime for any country.

[azurnoir]

26. Well you could say it was the fault of the ones that

dropped the bombs, which would be logical, but on this forum there are those that would claim it is the fault of those that "made" them drop them, which makes for a kind of logic also.

[mac2]

28. The military carries out it's orders.

How is it those at those prisons camps doing torture were prosecuted by not the bombers in Israel? It's because the ones who ordered it won't take responsibility. It is usually at the top of the command.

[azurnoir]

29. Were you refering to the

part of my post that said those who the bomb droppers, drop the bombs (redundancy demerit)? I meant Hezbollah "forcing" the bombing, but you are right about command.

[mac2]

20. It's hard to tell who is bombing who

since good intelligence is lacking in that part of the world. OR they lie about it.

Bush was just there so I can say...he's up to his old war games again. He wants to go after Iran in a big way. Israel wants land and water in a big way. Both want Empire in that part of the world.

[Usrename]

34. But both sides, everyone agrees about what is happening in Gaza.

No one is even trying to deny it at all. They are, instead, claiming that they have a RIGHT to do these things. Get it now?

snip>

GAZA CITY, Jan 28 (IPS) - A stream of dark and putrid sludge snakes through Gaza’s streets. It is a noxious mix of human and animal waste. The stench is overwhelming. The occasional passer-by vomits.

Over recent days this has been a more common sight than the sale of food on the streets of Gaza, choked by a relentless Israeli siege.

snip>

The sewage treatment plant in al-Zaytoun neighbourhood in Gaza City requires 20,000 litres of fuel a day. Last week Israel ceased delivery of all fuel and supplies to Gaza. The consequences have been catastrophic.

Without fuel to pump it away, the waste backs up, flooding the streets and clogging the plumbing. The local ministry of health has declared this an environmental catastrophe.

much more> http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=40959

[msmcghee]

37. Self delete n/t