Israel threatens to unleash 'holocaust' in Gaza

[bemildred]

An Israeli minister gave warning today that the army may unleash a “holocaust” on the Gaza Strip if Islamists there do not end their daily barrages of home-made Qassam rockets and their increasing use of Iranian-built Grad missiles.

"The more Qassam fire intensifies and the rockets reach a longer range, they will bring upon themselves a bigger holocaust because we will use all our might to defend ourselves," Matan Vilnai, the Deputy Defence Minister said.

The use of the term "holocaust” is usually restricted to descriptions of the Nazi genocide of the Jews in Europe in the Second World War, and many Israelis resent its use in any other context. Mr Vilnai’s deployment of the word appeared to show Israel’s growing frustration that Hamas and other militant groups in Gaza refuse to curb their attacks, despite heavy tolls inflicted in Israeli air strikes and tank raids.

Israel has killed 32 Palestinians, including four children and a baby, in the past two days amid a dramatic escalation of the cross-border war. Palestinian rocket fire killed one man on an Israeli campus, but scores more of the unguided missiles have landed in recent days, including some that hit the southern city of Ashkelon today, wounding several people.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3459144.ece

[femmedem]

1. "Error. You can't recommend threads from this forum."

Interesting he said, "bigger holocaust." That sounds like an admission that it is already a small-scale holocaust.

[ixion]

2. To all those folks who support the government of Israel and frantically deny that

Israel is practicing genocide on the Palestinians. I present this: words from their own mouth.

How people can defend the rogue state Israel is beyond me.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tom Joad]

3. What a choice of words. And that would make Olmert to be ...

[Scurrilous]

4. Terrible choice of words.

Israeli minister warns Palestinians of 'holocaust'

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3512978,00.html

By stepping up Qassam rocket attacks on Israel 'Palestinians will bring upon themselves a bigger holocaust because we will use all our might to defend ourselves,' says Deputy Defense Minister Vilnai says. Hamas in response: We are facing new Nazis

<snip>

"Deputy Israeli Defense Minister Matan Vilnai said on Friday the Palestinians would bring on themselves what he called a "bigger holocaust" by stepping up rocket attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip."

<snip>

"Israel said it was responding to rocket fire by Gaza militants, which killed one Israeli in the southern border town of Sderot on Wednesday, and it threatened to launch a larger-scale offensive unless the barrage stopped.

"The more Qassam (rocket) fire intensifies and the rockets reach a longer range, they (the Palestinians) will bring upon themselves a bigger holocaust because we will use all our might to defend ourselves," Vilnai told Army Radio.

Hamas official Sami Abu Zuhri said of Vilnai's comments: "We are facing new Nazis who want to kill and burn the Palestinian people."

[Phx_Dem]

5. He used the hebrew word shoah

to mean disaster, not genocide. It wasn't a good word choice.

[azurnoir]

7. Bad translation????

kind of like that Iranian guy? Bad translation or word with 2 meanings or whatever he said it, not to worry the American press will scramble with the correction, if the whole thing makes the M$M at all.

[Behind the Aegis]

18. self-delete. n/t

[Phx_Dem]

24. shoah gdolah

is the expression he used, if he were referring to the Holocaust he would have said "ha'shoah" which translates as "the Holocaust".

[azurnoir]

25. I was pointing out the irony

Hebrew is I would imagine, more commonly spoken and understood in the west than Farsi so the correction is quick in coming.

And on the not to worry paret I have read 2 other accounts of the speech in American media, the word disaster was used in one shoah was mentioned about 2/3's of the way down.

[Vegasaurus]

26. So you don't think that the Ahmanidiot actually said what he said?

It;s a "translation issue" for you?

[azurnoir]

30. As I said it is an irony issue

as to Mr A I have read a couple of different translations, none were particularly kind to Israel, but MEMRI's was particularly apocalyptic which works for those desiring war with Iran.

As to translations in general they can be slanted to suit the translator, all languages have words that there is no exact equivalent for in another given language.

[Behind the Aegis]

32. And the other irony...

...this "translation" works for those who claim the genocide meme. The only real difference, there have been attempts to "wipe ISRAEL from the map," as opposed to the "GENOCIDE" of the Palestinians.

[Tom Joad]

13. What human calamity is associated with the Hebrew word Shoah?

[oberliner]

6. In case anyone cares about what he actually said..

"The more Qassam fire intensifies and the rockets reach a longer range, they will bring upon themselves a bigger 'shoah' because we will use all our might to defend ourselves," Vilnai told Army Radio.

Vilnai's spokesman said: "Mr. Vilnai was meaning 'disaster'. He did not mean to make any allusion to the genocide."

Israel's Foreign Ministry spokesman, Arye Mekel, added: "Deputy Defence Minister Matan Vilnai used the Hebrew phrase that included the term 'shoah' in Hebrew in the sense of a disaster or a catastrophe, and not in the sense of a holocaust."

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20080229/twl-uk-palestinians-israel-13abf6c.html

I know that folks are keen on making sure translations are as accurate as possible.

[Howardx]

8. As the Guardian points out

"Shoah is the Hebrew word normally reserved to refer to the Jewish Holocaust. It is rarely used in Israel outside discussions of the Nazi extermination of Jews during the second world war, and many Israelis are loath to countenance its use to describe other events."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/29/israelandthepalestinians1

[oberliner]

9. I think that actually came from Reuters

The Reuters article includes this paragraph:

"Holocaust" is a term rarely used in Israel outside discussions of the Nazi genocide during World War Two. Many Israelis are loathe to countenance using the word to describe other contemporary events.

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/articlenews.aspx?type=worldNews&storyid=2008-02-29T103515Z_01_L28686017_RTRUKOC_0_UK-PALESTINIANS-ISRAEL.xml

[Howardx]

10. it came from the article

i linked to in my post.

[oberliner]

11. The article linked in your post lists "staff and agencies" in the byline

I believe that the "agency" in question is Reuters.

This article was not written by anyone at The Guardian.

[Howardx]

12. so?

whats your point? so it came from reuters, it doesnt change the meaning of what i posted.

[Tom Joad]

15. What solution do you want? More weapons sent to Israel?

You said that aid is a good thing, and especially aid to Israel (which is almost all military aid).

They can't make this Shoah happen without support of people like you. Even Bush might get a little queasy thinkin' of the long-term consequences of such a bloodbath. But with political support of people like you it's much easier.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oberliner]

20. I support two states living side by side at peace with one another

I wish that more folks who share this vision could get their voices heard.

Maybe ordinary Israelis and Palestinians who desire such a solution can get together and organize some kind of peaceful unity event (maybe a concert?) so that the world could see just how much most folks in the region long for peace.

[Tom Joad]

28. Just recently here you suggested the most important thing

was more US aid to Israel. The context was bulldozing West Bank farms. So as i understand it, your prescription for peace is
a) More Cats/weapons to Israel! Israel needs to get up to speed.
b) A concert to celebrate it all.

Sounds like a sure winner. :sarcasm:

[LeftishBrit]

21. No. The 'moderate' way (you seem to use this term for left-wing Zionism) is to support peace...

and a viable two-state solution.

However, many people here seem awfully concerned about whether Ahmadenijad actually said that Israel should be wiped off the map, or just wanted the 'Zionist regime' to vanish from the page of time, or whatever. Why not be just as fussy about translations from the Hebrew as from the Persian?

[Tom Joad]

27. "far Left" zionism? what are you talking about?

[LeftishBrit]

29. I said 'left-wing' not 'far-left'...

(though there are some far-left Israelis and Zionists).

Left-wing Zionists would include supporters of organizations such as Peace Now; ameinu.net; left-wing parties such as Meretz-Yachad.

[Behind the Aegis]

33. But, Zionism is racism according to those here.

[Tom Joad]

39. Sorry for the misread.

missed it by an important vowel. Anyway, for some, "moderates" would include the Labor Party, like the Deputy Defense Minister here. Or the Likud Party for that matter. (Isn't Likud "in-between" what the "far-left" wants and what avigdor lieberman's party wants? Therefore, it fits Oberliner's definiton of "moderate".


But as far as groups like Peace Now, i wish they had more say in Israeli policies. I wish what they said was given more attention here. a few days ago i posted a very enlightening press release from them, and no one seemed to give it any mind at all, at least from the "moderates" here.

You know what else i would like to see? We saw McCain, Hillary, Edwards, Obama, and huck make speeches before the aipac crowd. why don't they speak to the "peace now" crowd? I never heard any of them talk on the campaign trial about the expansion of Israeli settlements in the West Bank being the slightest bit of concern for them.

[Behind the Aegis]

19. Very few will care.

It will prove to be nothing more than fodder for those that spew the "genocide" meme. It was an idiotic use of the word, though it is used on rare occasions to describe situations other than the Holocaust. However, this will be lapped up as "proof" that Israel is committing genocide, once again proving that the "genocide" of the Palestinians is "real," despite facts showing otherwise.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tom Joad]

16. It should be noted that Matan Vilnai is a member of the Labor Party

Supporting traditional Labor Party values.

[LeftishBrit]

22. I know little about Vilnai but he sounds like a bloody fool

I realize that 'Shoah' does not just mean 'Holocaust'. Nevertheless, the use of the term will be inflammatory to Palestinians, and offensive to many Israelis.

[azurnoir]

31. Thank you

The "blow hard" theory works for me.

[Violet_Crumble]

41. His name rang a bell, so I did some digging...

What he said was totally idiotic and inflammatory, imo, but it's in complete contrast to what he said back in 1993 as the OC Southern Command when he was talking to troops in Gaza about soldiers being forbidden from firing at vehicles that failed to stop at checkpoints:

'Every time we shot at a vehicle like that we killed a child. It’s not worth it. It’s just not worth it. We had a story like that with reservists in Khan Yunis who opened fire and killed a four-year-old boy. And when you start to check the story, it turns out that the father had bought a new car and was taking his family for a drive for the first time in the car. He didn’t notice the roadblock, he was so thrilled at having a new car, he turned, ignored the checkpoint, and then the reservists open fire and kill a child. It just doesn’t pay.'

http://www.btselem.org/Download/199402_Firing_at_Vehicles_Eng.rtf

I haven't been able to find anything else about him, but based on what I read from when he was in the IDF, I'm hoping this recent shoah comment was an out of character thing for him...

[Igel]

23. Suggested understanding of "bigger".

Shoah = catastophe, usually the Holocaust.

"Bigger shoah" would mean bigger than the Holocaust. Given the number of Palestinians and and around Palestine, that would be quite a trick. So we can rule out that reference.

That leaves the logical--as though language were logical--reading that he's saying there's a less shoah, which can be identified as the current mess in Gaza and the WB. Possible. But that means he believes that the current few hundred Palestinians killed a year, with the usual increase in population, as somehow similar to the Holocaust. While in the mind of some people this seems plausible, simply reinforcing what they already believe, this seems doubtful. So I tend to discount this explanation.

There is of course a different way of assuming that he intended the current Palestinian plight, and that's through the prism of empathy: Palestinians reguard it as equivalent to the Shoah, so he's echoing their use in an attempt to speak like his audience. Quite possible, certainly more plausible than the implied equivalence from the preceding paragraph. But there's another catastophe of note, one that also would imply that he's using language that he thinks his implied audience--the Palestinians--would understand.

Naqba = catastrophe, 1948. "Bigger catastrophe" = "bigger Naqba".

Assuming, of course, that the two words are equivalent when translated. Any bilingual Hebrew/Arabic speakers around?

[malaise]

34. Looks like they mean it. Will anyone stop them?

Jimmy Carter was 100% correct.

[sabbat hunter]

35. That minister

should be dismissed from the cabinet immediately for his comments.

[Tom Joad]

44. Now that is a rational response.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

36. Arab-American Anti-Discrimination Committee (ADC) comdemns Vilnai's comments

Israeli Minister Says Palestinians Bringing Holocaust Upon Themselves


Washington, DC | February 29, 2008 | www.adc.org | The American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee (ADC) strongly condemns the deplorable comments made by Israeli Deputy Defense Minister Matan Vilnai. Speaking on Israel's army radio yesterday, Vilnai said: "They (the Palestinians) will bring upon themselves a bigger holocaust because we will use all our might to defend ourselves." ADC calls on the US and Israeli governments to take immediate action and publicly condemn, reject, and repudiate the Holocaust comment made by Israeli Deputy Defense Minister Matan Vilnai.


http://www.adc.org/index.php?id=3274

[ProgressiveMuslim]

37. As Pelsar would say: At last! A little honestly here! nt

[Tom Joad]

40. Matan "Let's give them a big Shoah" Vilnai is a big supporter of "One Voice" concerts.

I guess he not only wants the Palestinians to accept what he has planned for them, but to actually sing a nice song while the Israeli army does its usual work.

[Violet_Crumble]

42. A question for you, Tom...

Is that honestly all you think One Voice is about? Singing a song?

Also, some of the groups that were opposed to One Voice had members who support violence against civilians. So why aren't you speaking out against those groups?

[Tom Joad]

43. Oberliner, i have said many times that i oppose all attacks against

civilians, both Israeli and Palestinian, and the universal application of human rights and international law.

Something One Voice fails to mention, and yes, that is its greatest deficit, not the silly concert thing.

[Violet_Crumble]

45. I'm not Oberliner, and that's not the question I asked you...

I know you oppose attacks on all civilians, so why would I ask you that question?

I asked you why you don't speak out against groups that were opposed to One Voice who had members who supported violence?

fwiw, I've found the way you make false accusations against One Voice and it's goals (eg they support the settlements) to be every bit as annoying as the pro-Israel types and their nonsense. I support One Voice and I wouldn't support any group who was opposed to human rights and international law...

[Tom Joad]

46. I will not apologize for not supporting an organization that bills itself for

"peace" that has this man, Matan Vilnai, on its "Honorary Board of Advisers" (along with Danny De Vito!)

All while pretending to "oppose extremists"!!??!!

[Violet_Crumble]

47. Again you didn't answer the question I asked you...

Tom, it was a simple question and I'd like you to answer it...

And coz I'm in a crap of a mood this afternoon, I'm going to be very blunt with you. I didn't ask you to apologise for not supporting One Voice. In fact, I don't give a fuck about what you think about One Voice. And if I don't give a fuck what you think, why do you think anyone else would?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

48. Violet, how do you make sense of the fact that the organization that is all about "moderation"

includes the likes of Vilnai?

I think a "peace" group that includes unabashed shoah apologists, shows how terribly wrong their analysis of the problem, and by extension -- their mission are.

One Voice is wrong-headed and silly, not because Vilnai is an advisor, and he's a violence seeker, but because One Voice sees the core issue as "extremism."

The massacre we're witnessing isn't perpretarated by "extremists." It would be one thing if a band of rogue settlers had murdered scores of innocent civilians, including children. This monstrosity was conceived and implemented by the democratically elected, representative government of the state of Israel. You know and I know that there are far too many Israelis who believe this is the proper course of action. That is the central problem.

Everyone was tired and heart-sick yesterday, Violet. But today's a new day, and I sure would like to get a better sense of what you are actually asking Tom to condemn.

[Tom Joad]

49. We could also mention Dennis Ross, that served as a

apologist for the Camp David fiasco, when Israel offered a take it or leave it deal that even Arafat had to refuse.

Again, even with the grand intellectuals among this cast, like Danny Devito and Rhea Perlman ( :sarcasm: ) most of this group has been working to do everything possible to stop any real attempt to hold Israel accountable for its crimes against the Palestinian people. One Voice is silent on everything that matters in this issue.