32 Palestinians killed, 5 IDF soldiers hurt in Gaza

[Violet_Crumble]

At least 32 Palestinians were killed, among them 10 civilians - including five children and three women - during an ongoing Israel Defense Forces ground incursion near the northern Gaza Strip town of Jabaliya before dawn Saturday.

Five IDF soldiers were wounded during the fighting - three of them lightly and two others who suffered light to moderate injuries. The soldiers were evacuated to Soroka Medical Center in Be'er Sheba for treatment.

Sources in Gaza report that IDF soldiers exchanged heavy gunfire with Palestinian gunmen on the eastern outskirts of Jabaliya, situated 2-3 kilometers from the fence which lies on the Israel-Gaza border.

The ground forces, which included units from Givati Brigades, the Armored Corps, and the Engineering Corps, received air support from the Israel Air Force.

IAF planes launched missiles at groups of armed Palestinians during the fighting.

Believed to be among the dead civilians is a 17-year-old girl and her 16-year-old brother, a 45-year-old man and his 20-year-old son, and two sisters thought to be in their early 20s.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/959558.html

[subsuelo]

1. IDF bravery on display -- taking out the women and children too

What an obvious threat the women and children are.

In another article, a resident reports: "They're shooting at everything that moves"

They're turning Gaza into a slaughterhouse.

[Violet_Crumble]

2. Here's some info from B'Tselem on Israel's attacks on Gaza...

Since the outbreak of the second intifada, in late September 2000, Israeli security forces have killed at least 284 Palestinians near the Gaza Strip perimeter fence. At least 117 of the fatalities were civilians (including twenty-three minors) who were not taking part in the hostilities. The large number of cases indicates, apparently, that the IDF has classified substantial areas near the fence as "death zones," i.e., soldiers are under standing orders to fire at any person who enters the area, regardless of the circumstances. IDF officials, among them Judge Advocate General Avihai Mandeblit, vociferously deny that any such order has been given. However, the killings in the area since disengagement belie the army's denial.

It is also significant that, during the second intifada, the IDF has refused to reveal the open-fire regulations. Prior to the second intifada, soldiers received a written copy of the open-fire regulations; now, they receive verbal orders given them by their field commanders.

Israel completed the disengagement in September 2005. From then until the end of July 2006, soldiers have killed fourteen unarmed Palestinians near the perimeter fence. Five of the fatalities were minors, one of them an eight-year-old girl. Eight of the dead did not even try to reach the fence, and were shot at a distance of from 100 to 800 meters from the fence. Four other civilians were shot when they tried to cross the fence and sneak into Israel to work, and two were shot near the Israeli border. The IDF's announcement confirms that none of the persons killed were carrying weapons or objects with which they could mount an attack. B'Tselem's research also indicates that Israel 's security forces did not warn the Palestinians to go away from the area, and they were not given the opportunity to hand themselves over to the soldiers. The IDF Spokesperson's Office only announced that the soldiers opened fire when they suspected that Palestinians intended to fire at them or sought to place explosives near the fence.

A primary principle of international humanitarian law is the distinction between combatants and civilians. According to this principle, it is forbidden to attack civilians who are not taking part in the hostilities. When it is unclear if the persons are civilians or combatants, they must be treated as civilians. Automatically opening fire at every person who enters a certain area, regardless of the person's identity or the circumstances of the incident, such as in the cases described above, is "indiscriminate firing," which is liable to constitute a war crime.

Reducing the "safety range" in the Gaza Strip

In April 2006, the media reported that the IDF reduced – from 300 meters to 100 meters – the "safety range" between populated areas in the Gaza Strip and the area at which the army launches artillery fire. Given that a volley of shells disperses over an area of up to 100 meters from the target, and shell fire is not precise in any case, by reducing the range, the IDF knowingly endangers the lives of Palestinians living in these areas.

http://www.btselem.org/english/Gaza_Strip/Hostilities.asp

[MaryCeleste]

4. That srticle has the usual ME polemics

But its clear that the IDF intends to make sure that the if Hamas won't stop the rockets, the civilians will.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

5. Huh? I think you have it backwards. if Hamas wont' stop the rockets, the IDF will destroy

Gaza. At least that's how it looks on Al Jazeera right now.

I think the civilians are all cowering in fear for their lives.

[Vegasaurus]

6. So a sane government would try to protect its people

Since Hamas refuses, they are clearly insane.

[breakaleg]

7. Interesting reaction. When we see an article about someone in Israel "scared" by a kassam that

hits dirt, we get a more sympathetic reaction than actual dead women and children.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

9. Didn't you get the memo? Israeli lives are inherently more valuable.

Palestinians are to passively accept their occupation, denial of human rights, and any brutality the IDF wishes to dish out.

Unlike Jewish Israelis, Americans or Europeans, Palestinian Arabs don't share the same god-given rights.

Any resistance that actually disrupts any Israeli life is to be met with any degree of violent response.

The wholesale murder of scores of Gazans is perfectly reasonable because it is unacceptable that any israeli civilian should experience "shock."

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

21. .

[Englander]

23. The message in this edited post was "you do".

For the record.

[breakaleg]

26. My response would have been "when" but then those charges are never backed up. nt

[Violet_Crumble]

80. I just want to comment on the deleted post...

It might be gone, but I totally agree with what was said in it...

[Vegasaurus]

11. I have plenty of sympathy of the dead Palestinians

Just not for their leadership which has so little sympathy and concern for their own people.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

8. My point was that the destruction we're witnessing is not intended to motivate civilians.

[MaryCeleste]

13. Yes it it...

To motivate them to dump Hamas and stop the rockets. Its the unmistakable message of this action.

[azurnoir]

15. Unmistakeable? Like in Lebanon?

The same "reasoning" was used there also, what it did was allow Israel to kill over 1,000 civilians with impunity and and the by laying a virtual "minefield" of uxcb's the killing has not stopped. What is unmistakable is your complete indifference or willingness to excuse the killing of civilians as long as they are Palestinians and not Israelis

Your response that I am somehow doing the reverse or I am supporting terrorists, or once again to reiterate your original "it is their own fault meme" is predictable, but the bigotry and hate not to mention total disrespect for human life other then Israeli in this conflict, that it originates from is becoming more obvious with every post.

[MaryCeleste]

16. I think you posted this to the wrong person

I have not defended anything nor have I said anything about you supporting terrorists.

[azurnoir]

31. unfortunately no

I was posting to you.

Let's try another way-Not only has Israel used this same excuse about Lebanon, remember the Lebanese will or should rise-up against Hezbollah? Did that happen? Nope, in fact Hezbollah's popularity rose to new heights after the war, think about what you are glibly suggesting here- an almost certainly bloody insurrection in Gaza that would kill almost as many people as Israel will, is that somehow more desirable? Is so is that because it would be Palestinian on Palestinian violence making Israel "innocent"?

As far as my second part of my post I was circumventing the usual and tiresome answers to such a post.

[Phx_Dem]

39. A day does not go by anymore

where someone like you accuses pro-israel posters of bigotry and racism. I for one am totally fucking sick of it. Alerted.

[Violet_Crumble]

47. Yeah, but yr not sick of seeing pro-Palestinian posters being accused of bigotry and racism...

After all, that happens a hell of a lot and I do recall you doing it yrself....

btw, the poster that was being replied to was supporting the collective punishment and killing of Palestinian civilians until they do what Israel wants them to do. Surely you find such sentiments disgusting? Imagine if someone were to make that sort of comment about Israelis? Wouldn't you think such comments indicated a lack of value on the posters behalf for the civilians?

[Phx_Dem]

86. I think your mistaken

I have stated before that we all should stick to the facts and analysis, and stop trying to "infer" peoples motivations etc. I recall a thread started by Lithos recently that talked about this problem.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

17. Assuming you are right, what does Israel expect them to do?

Hold more elections that will be ignored?

you can't prompt people to take democratic action after you've basically said "FUCK YOU!" to their last act of democracy!!!

But if supporting Israel's genocide in this way helps you sleep better at night, go for it!

[MaryCeleste]

19. Hamas "election" was fuzzy, but their armed removal of Fatah was not

I would expect the reverse to happen or Hamas to announce it will actively stop the rockets. Democracy in the ME is pretty sketchy in general.

I have not said I supported either side, I was just commenting on what I thought the IDF's message was.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

22. You are factually incorrect and speaking utter nonsense.

There was nothing fuzzy about that internationally monitored election.

Hamas' removal of Dahlan's Fatah forces was brought about after Dahlan was attempting to wage a coup.

[MaryCeleste]

24. Actually there are very different views of that

There were a number of doubts about the way the election was held and while there are continuous claims of coup plots, nothing has happened. The Arab Street thrives on gossip of spies and plots. Its a hard charge to take seriously. Little changed in the lives of Gazans due to the election, it was still a hard scrabble existence. However with the increase in rocket attacks under Hamas and Israeli retribution, things are now clearly worse.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

29. Utter fabrication. Back up your nonsense with a credible link. nt

[subsuelo]

52. I wonder how long you will be waiting. nt

[ohio2007]

84. don't hold your breath nt

[ProgressiveMuslim]

88. Yawn. nt

[Violet_Crumble]

46. Nothing like a bit of motivational killing to send the message!

Sorry, but killing civilians in order to *send a message* is collective punishment, which is a violation of international law. Apart from that, I find it totally abhorrent that some folk in this forum appear to think that the deaths of innocent civilians are acceptable and that all they have to do is just Get The Message. You know what the obvious outcome of all this is? A very understandable hatred for the state that's carrying out the bombardment, defiance which will more than likely include a strengthening of support for Hamas, and in the little world of the I/P forum, a bunch of posters in future threads insisting that the ill-feeling is just because Arabs hate Jews coz there's no reason for them to feel badly towards Israel and its attempts to bring *peace* ;)

[ohio2007]

85. motivational recruitment videos

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=509_1177305637
because the promise of 72 virgins may not be appealing enough

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=92d_1204453732
wonder who that allah hakbar high plains jibberish he spoke translates into English

[ProgressiveMuslim]

89. Israel's actions are all the recruitment tools needed. nt

[Vegasaurus]

92. Bullshit

Israelis are not out partying, celebrating, passing out sweets and lowering prices of items when Palestinian are killed.

Their sons are not celebrated as martyrs and paid sums by the state for killing innocent people.

The Israeli government does not make promotional videos to recruit new terrorists, with promises of 72 virgins.

Israelis make lives for themselves, not perfect, but they have good lives. They don't spend their entire lives working on resistance and martyrdom.

The Palestinians should take responsibility for the government they elected, and the resistance they still support. That is why their lives suck.

[MaryCeleste]

12. No, what you are seeing is a classic terror operation

Israeli position is clear...no more rockets. They are bringing that message brutally to the people of Gaza. If Hamas does not stop the rockets, the people of Gaza will dump Hamas. Its a pretty basic equation.

There is not a lot of nobility or shoulder to shoulder or higher cause thinking in much of the middle east, and espcially not in the Gaza. That kind of thinking is reserved for the comfortable and the elite, there and here. The reality on the groung is that it is a crude fight for survival on a daily basis. The IDF is making sure that the people of Gaza know that if the rockets continue, their lives can and will get worse.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

18. Dump Hamas how? Israel has destroyed the electoral process in Palestine! nt

[breakaleg]

34. It's funny. The US wanted to spread democracy and they did. And when it didn't go their way, they

essentially worked to throw out the results. Now, to those Palestinians, how much faith does that give them in democracy? I bet that whole process came across as no better than any other system of government they've seen in the past.

[Behind the Aegis]

44. Are the Palestinians responsible for **anything**?

[Violet_Crumble]

48. According to some here they're responsible for **everything**...

Let's focus on what PM actually said, which was that Israel has destroyed the electoral process. Do you agree or disagree with that? I think that much like the US does when the democratic process doesn't go the way it wants, Israel has done a fair bit of damage to the democratic process in the Occupied Territories...

[Behind the Aegis]

56. And there are some who don't think they are to blame for a damn thing.

Israel has not destroyed the electoral process and if it has then back it up. There was a reason I said that to PM, because that tends to be her mantra.

[Violet_Crumble]

63. PM didn't say the Palestinians aren't to be blamed for anything...

And if you think she does, then you must have missed what she's had to say about Abbas...

I do believe that Israel has damaged the electoral process in the Occupied Territories, and should have left it alone and let the whole thing work itself out...

[Behind the Aegis]

65. You shouldn't interject into conversations where you do not know the history.

I have seen what she has said about Abbas and that is again tied to Israel, so no points there.

So, just an opinion about Israel damaging the electoral process and no real proof. Thanks for clarifying.

[Violet_Crumble]

67. You should stop trying to be such a bossy boots...I go on what I read here...

And PM didn't say that the Palestinians aren't responsible for anything. But thanks for yet again showing that yr more than willing to throw around untrue accusations...

Yep, I'm not wasting my time digging up *proof* for someone like you. Not when yr not the slightest bit interested in facts...

[Behind the Aegis]

70. Facts don't seem to be your friend anyway.

I never said PM said this or that, see, facts. But, thanks again for your willingness to make your own accusations then fail to produce facts because it is "beneath" you to do so.

[Violet_Crumble]

73. Sometimes they're not, but facts are facts...

Bullshit. You said it was PM's mantra.

Nor did I say it was beneath me to provide *facts* to you. You want to be taken seriously? Then start treating people with a bit of respect for a change...

[Behind the Aegis]

75. Lead by example.

[Violet_Crumble]

77. I manage fine, so the 'You First!' line doesn't work n/t

[ProgressiveMuslim]

50. You're funny BTA. Are we to pretend that Israel and the US didn't overturn the results of the

Palestinian election?

C'mon dude. That's a stretch even for the likes of you.

[Behind the Aegis]

55. And you're anything but funny.

Israel and the US overturned those closely (interationally) monitored elections?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

81. Can you say with a straight face, that the action undertaken by the US and Israel

following those elections were not a de facto overturning of the results?

At least have the courage to tell the truth.

[eyl]

90. No

The Palestinians can chose whomever they want, and Israel did not interfere. In fact, as far as I recall, Israel has not disputed that Hamas is the government of the PA.

But Hamas is and was, for all practical purposes, at war with Israel. Just because they were elected does not mean that Israel is obliged to suddenly ignore that and treat with them regardless of their actions.

In 2000, when Austrian far-rightist Jörg Haider joined the ruling party in a coalition, other European governments diplomatically boycotted the government. Do you think they were overturning the Austrian electoral results?

[Vegasaurus]

91. There is a separate set of rules for Israel

other countries can protect themselves without impunity. Other governments can boycott governments, but only Israel is expected to feed and give fuel and electricity to people with whom they are at war and then soundly criticized when they try to stop a government (which has expressed its goal of annhiliating the very state taking care of their people) from shooting nonstop rockets.

It's an upside down crazy world.

[Phx_Dem]

36. Hamas wanted a war

and they got one. The tragedy is that Gazans are dying for nothing.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

3. You can watch the Sho'ah live on Al Jazeerah. nt

[Scurrilous]

14. Israeli-Palestinian Clashes Kill 45

<snip>

"Palestinians threatened Saturday to call off peace talks with Israel after 45 Gazans, at least half of them civilians, were killed in pitched battles between Israeli troops and rocket squads that escalated sharply.

The deaths pushed the Palestinian death toll to 75 since fighting flared Wednesday — some of the fiercest clashes in Gaza since Islamic Hamas militants seized control there in June. More than half of those killed were civilians.

Israeli troops, backed by tanks and aircraft, went after militants who bombarded southern Israeli communities near Gaza with rockets and mortars.

The spike in violence came as Israel was threatening to launch a broad invasion of Gaza, and just days before Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was to arrive in the region on her latest peacekeeping mission.

Chief Palestinian negotiator Ahmed Qureia said Palestinian leaders, including President Mahmoud Abbas, recommended suspending peace talks at a meeting Saturday in the West Bank town of Ramallah.

"I think it will be suspended," Qureia said. "What is happening in Gaza is a massacre of civilians, women and children, a collective killing, genocide," Qureia added. "We can't bear what the Israelis are doing, and what the Israelis are doing doesn't led the peace process any credibility."

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jD4YSkDPlclqd9dHvg2f0Ij18zEgD8V4NQ0G0

[subsuelo]

20. "Massacre" is the appropriate term

What is taking place is a massacre. And the world stands by and does nothing about it.

[pegleg]

25. It all boils down to stopping the rocket attacks. If those stop

peace is possible. Unless of course Israel decides to take Gaza back.

[MaryCeleste]

27. No one really seems to want Gaza or care for its residents

but they are glad to use them as tools for their goals. Many in the ME speak about solidarity with the people of Gaza, and then send them arms and not food and never go there themselves. I know there are some true humanitarian efforts underway, but the rockets had to come from somewhere, especially the longer range ones that have been used recently.

Those who claim solidarity with the people of Gaza need to stop sending them rockets and send them food, energy and teachers. When the people are no longer living hand to mouth, then and only then can real progress be made.

[breakaleg]

28. On CNN's front page the headline is 45 dead, 50 wounded in Gaza but the image shown is an Israeli

woman treated for shock. There is something seriously wrong with this.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

30. 52 dead. 17 children. Certainly a proud day for the valiant IDF.

Geez, if it weren't for those damned Palestinian textbooks, those Arabs wouldn't hate the Israelis.

[Purveyor]

32. Is it just me or does it really seem like nearly every year around this time the israelis

just have to spill some Palestinian blood?

[Phx_Dem]

35. It's just you

nt.

[subsuelo]

41. Agreed - it is pretty much a year round thing

[ProgressiveMuslim]

51. One-third dead are children. I hope the citizens of Israel will sleep more safely tonight. nt

[Purveyor]

33. Had Israeli civilian casulties been reported, Faux news would be going with wall-to-wall coverage

and a continuous loop of the events at the scene of these casualties.

The only reporting I've seen of todays massacre have been here on the net.

[oberliner]

37. It is being reported on extensively everywhere - including Fox News

It's on the Fox News front page. Here's the story:

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Israeli troops turned heavy firepower on rocket squads bombarding southern Israel Saturday, killing 54 Palestinians in the deadliest day in Gaza since Hamas seized control in June.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,334257,00.html

It's the lead story on the front page of the CBS News website. Here's the link:

Israeli troops turned heavy firepower Saturday on militant rocket squads bombarding southern Israel, killing 54 Palestinians in the deadliest day in Gaza since Islamic Hamas militants seized control in June.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/01/world/main3895764.shtml

It's on the front page of the MSNBC website as well. Here's the link to their story:

Bloody Israeli-Hamas clashes escalate in Gaza
A least 54 Palestinians killed in fighting ahead of Rice visit

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23419778/

[Purveyor]

43. I said in my post that it is indeed being reported here on the net however I was referring

to cable/network tv coverage.

[Phx_Dem]

38. I agree

why don't you call CNN and find out why their photographers don't go into Gaza and take some pics. Oh wait a minute, that's probably a bad idea.

[subsuelo]

42. Agreed, given that Israel is currently shooting everything that moves

[Behind the Aegis]

45. Perhaps you should read more.

Hamas has cracked down on all press.

[Violet_Crumble]

49. Is Israel responsible for **anything**? n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

57. Keep your day job, comedian, you ain't.

[Violet_Crumble]

64. I wasn't trying to be funny...n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

66. Well, it worked.

[Violet_Crumble]

68. It did. I made the correct assumption that you've got no sense of humour...

:)

[Behind the Aegis]

72. Nope, then again that doesn't stop you from claiming it as "fact."

:P

[Violet_Crumble]

78. I just go on what I read and I didn't claim it as a fact n/t

[subsuelo]

54. Do you have any problem whatsoever with the current massacre of Gazans?

[Behind the Aegis]

58. Do you have a problem with acknowledging what I posted was true?

[subsuelo]

59. I've no problem with truth, now answer the question

Do you have any problem with the current massacre in Gaza

[Behind the Aegis]

60. You first.

[subsuelo]

61. Yes I have a problem with censorship of media.

Your turn. Do you have any problem with the current massacre in Gaza?

[Behind the Aegis]

62. Thank you.

Yes, I have a problem with deaths of innocent civilians, no matter their nationality or any other factor.

[Violet_Crumble]

69. Then how come you only complain about the deaths of Israelis, not Palestinians? n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

71. I have "complained" about both.

[Violet_Crumble]

74. No you haven't n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

76. See, a new "fact."

[Violet_Crumble]

79. Huh? I didn't say anything about facts...

I pointed out that I haven't seen you do it. Learn to distinguish between facts and opinion...

[breakaleg]

53. Nice try, except elsewhere during that same article, they did post pictures of Palestinain wounded.

I guess they just didn't rank as high as this woman and her "shock". Everywhere else in the world, dead trumps shocked but I guess not at CNN. Kind of like around here.

[ohio2007]

83. you need to visit al Jazeera for the real unbiased opinions

/sarc



http://www.aljazeera.com/news/newsfull.php?newid=94964

but some things are best ignored since only they can change themselves and their leadership.

[breakaleg]

87. self delete.

[Scurrilous]

40. In pictures: Middle East violence:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/7272386.stm

[ohio2007]

82. so, in other words, of the 32, killed, 10 were sheilds and 22 were ligitimate targets ?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=61acd_4507
yet by some standards... they say all people are ligitimate targets.