Salt in the wounds

[Phx_Dem]

No matter how much international pressure is put on Israel to sit down with Hamas and thrash out their differences, nothing will resonate in the Israeli public's consciousness like the following statement:

"Hamas blesses the heroic operation in Jerusalem, which was a natural reaction to the Zionist massacre."

That was the considered response of a Hamas spokesman last night to the murderous shooting spree in a Jerusalem yeshiva which left eight dead and scores wounded. And, in making such a proclamation, he demonstrated precisely why the Israeli man on the street is just as fearful as ever of making concessions to Hamas, and consequently why even leftwing newspapers like Haaretz are backing the IDF's latest incursions into Gaza.

The cold-blooded butchering of unarmed civilians is neither "heroic", nor is it a "natural reaction" to any perceived crimes committed by the other side - and for a Palestinian government official to go on record and claim otherwise is nothing short of outrageous. For all of Israel's faults, no minister would ever make similarly obscene statements in the wake of such an attack were it to be perpetrated by the IDF against innocents.

Despite the outrage over the misinterpreted "Shoah" remarks last week, that incident pales into comparison against the Hamas spokesman's declaration this evening, which not only sought to justify the mowing down of students in a library, but also described the killing as something to be admired. If the elected government of the Palestinians backs wholesale slaughter of this kind against Israelis, then it's no wonder that in return the Israelis give carte blanche to their leaders to do as they will in the name of defending them from further attack.

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/seth_freedman/2008/03/salt_in_the_wounds.html

[PDJane]

1. Oh, great steaming hunks of ordure.

Israel's overreaction to even minor provocation and its refusal to compensate for or return Palestinian lands is the reason for the Palestinian stance.

Of the at least 118 folks killed in the shelling last week, at least 50% were people who had never picked up a gun. Twenty seven of them were children, at least two still infants. This is not sane, and it's a sure way to get a people to fight to the very last person, because they have been convinced that there is no dealing with Israel, and no survival unless they fight.

It's an insane battle, and giving the Palestinian reaction in these terms obscures the whole picture.

[Phx_Dem]

2. I had to look up "ordure"

Israeli leadership has never said they won't compensate Palestinians for their losses, but all this needs to be done in the context of peace talks.

[PDJane]

3. Israel has said so; not lately, but they have said so.

in the meantime, they are pushing palestinians into open-air prisons, taking their water and farmland, and treating them in ways that should be banned.

Enough already. Both sides use terror, but Israel uses it as a state tactic. If it were not backed by the US, there would have been sanctions already.

[Malikshah]

8. Uh--add the international community to the list of the one's who

will be asked to pay.

Get it right.

[azurnoir]

10. The international community

recently granted a sizeable amount the Palestinians, it was put into the hands of Fatah not Hamas but I suppose there is not much difference to some.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/80804

[Malikshah]

11. Read the original post to which I was referring. I am addressing the issue of Israel

saying it will pay, etc.

The leadership in Israel has been consistent in arguing that any compensation/repatriation will be funded by the international community.

I was not referring to what you were referring.

[azurnoir]

13. Wrong poster my bad mea culpa n/t

[Dick Dastardly]

21. So shooting 50 rockets a day fired indiscriminatly at civilians

is just a minor provocation? and Israel has no right to protect themselves especially because since Hamas hides behind its civilians, some may be killed if Israel tries to protect its civilians?

So Hamas is not to blame for the deaths of civilians they hide behind, Israel is.?

[MaryCeleste]

4. Antics like that make it more likely renewed rocket attacks with be met with massive force

Dumb...just dumb

[LeftishBrit]

5. He is right; talk about a DISASTROUS government...

Hamas are far-RW, and totally indifferent to the sufferings of most of their own people, let alone Israeli civilians. It's no surprise that they condone violence; but to celebrate violence directly targeting a group of unarmed teenagers is particularly shocking.

I hope that the people of Gaza vote them out! Otherwise, they'll just continue to suffer not just from the actions of Israel and most of the Arab states, but their own terrible government!

BTW, Freedman is a very good and interesting writer, a strong supporter of moves toward peace, and far from blind to the Israeli government's faults.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

12. VOTE THEM OUT OF WHAT?????

The US and Israel destroyed and overturned the electoral process. It was smashed because our gov'ts didn't like the results.

Can you explain how this works? I'm curious to understand how you pro-Israel folks think this collective punishment is supposed to function.

Is it like this? The US and Israel refuse to allow a democratic election to function properly. For voting for the wrong people, the 1.5 millino in Gaza have their economy smashed and face international islation. They respond with rockets. A total siege ensues. More rockets. Israel massacres 120. There is an act of revenge. Israeli further bombs Gaza (but hey, that's OK, because the dead people are arabs, and the civilized Israelis only celebrate on the pages of "talk back" rather than handing out sweets). So... what? More civilians massacred for not violently overthrowing their elected gov't?

Why not just kill them all now? Negotiate, annex or annihilate.

And you're the civilized folks?

[pelsar]

15. i think your time line is a bit messed up.....

For voting for the wrong people, the 1.5 millino in Gaza have their economy smashed and face international islation. They respond with rockets

economy smashing came after israel left gaza and the rockets and mortars kept coming down.......and the "total seige came about as still more lame rockets kept coming down...

i dont think you get how "annoying" daily random rocket attacks can be....they're generally considered an act of war.
---

and the difference between those jews/israelis who celebrate Palestinian deaths is that they are individuals....i do believe that hamas, the govt of gaza is the one that is promoting the celebrations of the jewish kids deaths....thats the problem (not so much the individual Palestinians....)

[LeftishBrit]

23. They are still in government

It's not up to me to vote them out; but if I were Palestinian I would.

If I were Israeli, I would also vote for a different government.

All sides need new leaders. But Hamas are nastier than many.

And BTW, I don't agree with the bombing of Gaza.

'And you're the civilized folks?'

I am not quite sure who 'you' is supposed to mean here (I am not Israeli, though I do have some relatives there). In fact, I think very few governments are very civilized; but some are worse than others.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

26. LB, you miss the point.

The last time Palestinians exercised their right to self-determination, it was overturned.

Why in the world would they have any faith that a future election would be different. They got the message loud and clear.

"Democracy" only counts if the US-backed party wins.

Are you OK with that? How is that different than Castro getting 99% of the vote?

[breakaleg]

27. And yet, I bet the US won't see that they could have ruined any real possibility that

the people of Gaza would seek or believe in democracy after what's happened.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

29. I asked my rep's Leg. Aide this yesterday and he hung up on me. nt

[Behind the Aegis]

30. Didn't you get the memos?!

The first: "Palestinians are never to be blamed."

The second: "Israelis are always at fault."

The third: "The first two memos are actually reversed because...well, just because...no need for proof, make up your own facts to "prove" it."

[Violet_Crumble]

31. I'm not on the mailing list for silly made up memos...

Doesn't appear yr all that bothered by needing to provide proof...

[Looking4Light]

32. Whoa there...

you're trippin'.

The US and Israel didn't destroy any electoral process. They, and the Quartet, will not deal with Hamas (the EU recognizes Hamas as a terror organization) *until* Hamas fulfills the following conditions put forth by the quartet:

1. commit to non-violence
2. recognizes Israel's right to exist
3. accepts current Mideast peace agreements

Again, this is the Quartet talking. NOT "The US and Israel".

As for smashing the economy, the Palestinians did that to themselves by, well, smashing things like greenhouses which they could have used to employ thousands and conduct international export. And by attacking crossing points set up to allow their economy to function. To the point where now even Egypt is building a serious wall.

>Why not just kill them all now?

Actually, Israel could probably kill the vast majority of the Gazan population in a matter of days...

>And you're the civilized folks?

...but hasn't. And yes, showing that kind of restraint is one mark of civilization.

[azurnoir]

14. Vote them out how?

there is almost anarchy in Gaza now, not to mention it would take an international community that doesn't want to deal with Hamas to organize the election. Under the current conditions an election is all but impossible and without an alternative to Fatah/Abbas and Hamas why bother?

[oberliner]

16. From The Economist:

A more peaceful variant would mean Israel and America ditching the idea that Hamas can be destroyed and asking Saudi or Egyptian mediators to broker a ceasefire and prisoner exchange between Israel and Hamas. In the longer run, a new effort may have to be made to cut a deal, more precise than the one struck in Mecca last year, between Hamas and Fatah. Hamas would have to agree to let Mr Abbas continue to negotiate with Israel, and both Palestinian parties would agree to hold new elections—and to respect their results. At present, that scenario looks fanciful. But over time it may become more realistic.

http://www.economist.com/world/africa/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10808635

[azurnoir]

22. While it's a nice thought

I am not to sure America and Israel would ever go along with it.

[LeftishBrit]

25. Why not?

They won't (at present) talk to Hamas themselves - and vice versa, probably - but I don't think they'd object to Egypt doing so.

[azurnoir]

28. Egypt would /could do it but

at present Israel is planning a new military operation*, and with the killing of 8 students in Jerusalem any peace agreement seems unlikely any time soon

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x203456

*the thread was posted after the comment #25

[LeftishBrit]

24. I hope something like that happens.

Similar things moved from being 'fanciful' to 'realistic' in Northern Ireland, after all.

There needs to be a big international push for peace negotiations.

[Phx_Dem]

17. Un peacekeepers should be deployed in Gaza

Personally I think the Gazans are quite capable of holding an election.

[msmcghee]

18. The UN does not send in peacekeepers . .

. . until the parties agree to a peace. There has to be a peace to "keep" first.

[Phx_Dem]

19. a UN coalition then. nt

[Violet_Crumble]

20. Defense chiefs warm to idea of multinational force in Gaza

Defense officials are pushing the idea of a multinational force in the Gaza Strip, but are undecided on whether they prefer such a unit to be deployed relatively soon or only after a major ground operation by the Israel Defense Forces.

A large Israeli offensive may be inevitable if the situation in the Strip continues to deteriorate.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/961759.html

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hifalutin]

9. That all depends

on what normal means to some folks.

[breakaleg]

7. Interesting quote. Except nowhere in the article do they address the latter part of the sentence.