African migrants risk all for better life in Israel

[oberliner]

CAIRO (AFP) - Mustafa dodged checkpoints in four countries on his odyssey from poverty-stricken Burkina Faso, but his hopes for a brighter future in Israel were crushed when Egyptian police caught him near the border.

Mustafa, in his 30s, now sits in an Egyptian jail with three other compatriots who attempted the increasingly common illegal crossing, but their fate is better than those who end up shot dead on the sensitive border.

To get here he trekked hundreds of kilometres (miles) through the arid deserts of Niger and Libya to reach Egypt's Suez Canal on what was to be the last leg of his months-long journey -- across the Sinai desert and into Israel.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080319/wl_africa_afp/egyptisraelimmigration_080319060048

[hifalutin]

1. All I can think of

to say is 'oh those poor souls'

[LeftishBrit]

2. So sad

What a nightmare.

[pelsar]

3. there have been literal "tugs of war"....

as they climb the fence....IDF have helped them over.....a couple of times the Egyptians literally try to pull them back...and when the succeed they beat them up (my neighbors daughter is a look out on the border, when she spots them, she then sends the patrols to the areas...or watches in horror with what the egyptians do...)

[LeftishBrit]

4. Why do the Egyptians do this?

Even if they don't want the refugees in Egypt, why should they care if another country takes them in?

[rockymountaindem]

5. Probably because if they get to Israel

more will try to get into Egypt so they can try the same thing.

[pelsar]

6. they are illegals...

going through the sinai.....

[rockymountaindem]

8. Right

So if the succeed in getting to Israel, more people from Sudan will probably give it a try, meaning more people will pass through Egypt, which is not what the Egyptians want.

[azurnoir]

10. Egypt doesn't like "walk throughs"?

or Egypt does not want to be accused of purposely contributing to economic problems in Israel? Israel according to the CIA factbook already has a 21.6% poverty rate, not to mention the fact that the Darfur refugee's are overwhelmingly Muslim, the right wingers could have a heyday with that one-"Egypt allows Muslim's to flood into Israel" or some such. Not to mention aside form the religious and race/ethnic factors there are literally tens if not hundreds of thousands of people trying to leave Darfur, can Israel afford to become a safe haven? Then add to that now they will be sent back to Egypt any way, I do not think Egypt has the resources to be a safe haven either
Not that the US has stepped up either, we aren't even taking many of the refugee's we created in Iraq, and those from Sudan, I will say straight up we would not because of race/religious reasons, not that I approve but it is the ugly truth.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/is.html#Econ

[Shaktimaan]

11. I wouldn't say that

the US would be reluctant to take them because of race or even religious reasons. Sure, for the annual lottery the winners tend to skew heavily towards western nations but we've generally taken in refugees from every conceivable race and religion. The main reasons I think the US (and everyone else) is reluctant to take these people have more to do with socioeconomics. These people are very very poor and are likely to require both rehabilitation and help to overcome the initial culture gap they'll face once they get here. But even after they adjust they have no education, don't speak english, don't have any family or support network and aren't likely to be qualified to do anything but the most menial of jobs.

Basically, they'll probably cost a lot. America tends to like the cream of other countries to immigrate. That's not to say we don't take refugees like these people in... America takes in more immigrants and refugees than any other nation on earth, I believe. I just think there are more compelling reasons we might not want them other than just assuming that knee-jerk racism is to blame.

ps- Your theory about Egypt is kind of silly. Do you really think egypt crafts policy around Israel's internal politics like that? Pelsar already gave an account of how Israel vs Egyptian border patrols treat them. Do you think that the Egyptian ones are acting that way because of a wacky assumption of how a politician in Israel might randomly decide to pin a domestic policy debate's issues on Egypt? I don't see Mubarak up late at night worrying about what the Shas party members are saying about him.

You really think countries make decisions like these based primarily on prejudices?

[azurnoir]

12. My theory on Egypt

was stated from a solely Israel-Egypt perspective, the major reason(s) that Egypt does not want Sudanese refugees are most likely socio-economic in nature, not to mention that Egypt is a bit closer to the Sudan making it an easier journey.
Now as for the US, I live in one of the area's that has had a heavy influx of Somali refugees, who are came here in similar circumstances to Sudanese and I will stick with what I said about that, seen it first hand there is across the board bigotry against Somali's, not just whites, not just Christians or Jews either, even amongst Arab/Kurdish Muslim immigrants many of whom do not consider Somali's to be "proper Muslims" for a variety of reasons.

[hifalutin]

13. Another silly question please?

Why would Muslims risk their lives trying to get to Israel and not to a predominantly Muslim country?

[azurnoir]

14. Simple Israel has better economic conditions

and standards of living in general. The GDP (gross domestic product) per capita in Israel is $28,800 per year and in Egypt the figure is around $5,400 per year. Although the poverty level in Egypt is a bit lower than Israel 20%E vs 21.6%I; I would be willing to bet that Israel like the US has a higher standard of what living in poverty means.

Israel
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/is.html#Econ


Egypt
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/eg.html#Econ

[Vegasaurus]

dupe, delete

[Vegasaurus]

15. Does that answer question # 13?

I think not.

If Israel is such a terrible apartheid racist country, why would they choose to go there?

[azurnoir]

20. Does that answer the question

Yes, it is just not the answer you wanted, or perhaps the question was more "loaded" then I realized. But in answer to your question the Sudanese are not Palestinian, yes they are predominately Muslim, however what remains to seen is how they are treated once in living in Israel, how are Ethiopian Jews treated in Israel?

[hifalutin]

22. It did partially

economic reasons, but then your post leads to another question...

'If Israel is such a terrible apartheid racist country, why would they choose to go there?'

Personally I would rather live poor than under the above alternative.

[azurnoir]

24. Perhaps you should have asked what you really meant

then I would not have wasted time with a logical answer, however if you and other(s) wants to hear "it's because there is no racism in Israel" you will not, because it is not true, nor is it true of Egypt, England, France, or the US for that matter. Maybe you are unaware that there is a thread on that subject based on a civil rights group in Israel's report.
As to, apartheid that concept applies mostly in the OPT, where even the most major roads are segrigated Palestinian only, Israeli's only. There is also a current on that subject.

[hifalutin]

25. OK This is what I really wanted to ask....

Why would Muslims risk their lives trying to get to Israel and not to a predominantly Muslim country?

[azurnoir]

26. I answerwd that twice

To me the question is sort of like asking "why despite growing hostility against Hispanics and Mexicans in particular do Mexicans continue to enter the US, rather than go to another Spanish speaking country?"

[hifalutin]

27. I believe that in

post #24 you asked me what I really meant to ask so I repeated it for you.
Thank you for the response.

[pelsar]

28. I'm amazed at your imagination.....

so now egypt is concerned with israeli economic problems?........thats why they're shooting sudanese refugees?

its seems every one of your posts has too slants: evil israel, or everything anybody does in the area is to appease israel...

and there have been some real imaginative ones
(my favorite was the accusation that the border between gaza and egypt wasnt long enough to bring in the quantity of supplies to take care of gaza)

[Violet_Crumble]

31. Why would you have a problem with border infiltrators being shot?

After all, Israel shoots people trying to infiltrate its border. Was it coz the asylum seekers weren't 60 year old farmers riding a donkey? ;)

[pelsar]

32. they're refugees....

looking for a better life...not attempting to blow us up......

The sinai border is considered a peaceful border and the infiltration attempts are not considered violent as a default. Jordan, Syria, Egypt all guard their borders and attempt to keep everybody out.

Gaza is quite the opposite, gazans in general who approach the border have intentions to kill as many israelis as possible and hamas, the local govt does not discourage such acts (in fact there is evidence that they encourage the acts). I doubt there is a "dangerous border ahead sign."

Whether the 60yr old man on a donkey was actually a 60 year old man, whether he was killed by the IDF, or by a hamasnik or by a heart attack i actually have no idea....nor does anybody here. However past experience has shown that when gazans approach the israeli border the intentions are to kill israelis....its best they stay away...if and when they do make it across, within minutes they can succeed in their mission.....

[azurnoir]

33. Imagination and Egypts concerns

that was addressed in post #12

"was stated from a solely Israel-Egypt perspective, the major reason(s) that Egypt does not want Sudanese refugees are most likely socio-economic in nature, not to mention that Egypt is a bit closer to the Sudan making it an easier journey."

Note easier journey=more refugee's, something I do not think Egypt has the resources to handle.

now as for imagination? perhaps you should read down thread, however if you prefer to believe the "evil Israel" what can I say?

Oh yeah Rafah my problem with that once again concerned the future, and the question of should the people of Gaza be forever content with living off UN rations or should they have a fully developed economy. Apparently we differ there

[Violet_Crumble]

7. Israel sends African migrants back to Egypt

JERUSALEM: Israel has sent about 50 African migrants, said to include Sudanese refugees from war-torn Darfur, back across the border to Egypt, a move condemned by Israeli human rights advocates.

The migrants had illegally infiltrated the Israeli-Egyptian border Saturday and were sent back later that night, as Israel instituted a policy of instant deportation for the first time, an Israeli government spokesman said Sunday.

The spokesman, David Baker, said Israel was prepared to absorb the 500 refugees from Darfur who are already in Israel. But from now on, he said, Israel would send back all migrants crossing the border from the Egyptian Sinai, regardless of their status or origins, by agreement with the Egyptian authorities.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/08/19/news/mideast.php

[oberliner]

9. Some 2,800 African refugees have entered Israel this year

Some 2,800 African refugees have crossed the border into Israel from Egypt since the beginning of 2008, officials told Haaretz on Thursday.

The total number of African refugees that have successfully entered Israel is estimated at 6,000.

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/966610.html

[Violet_Crumble]

16. What's yr point? n/t

[oberliner]

17. A fair number of refugees from Africa have come to Israel this year

Not sure that everyone is aware of the extent of the figures.

[Violet_Crumble]

18. Didn't you read this bit of what I posted? It's the reason I posted it...

'The spokesman, David Baker, said Israel was prepared to absorb the 500 refugees from Darfur who are already in Israel. But from now on, he said, Israel would send back all migrants crossing the border from the Egyptian Sinai, regardless of their status or origins, by agreement with the Egyptian authorities.'

[oberliner]

19. That was from August of 2007

Here is some more current information:

The JBI report also urges Israel and Egypt to negotiate a viable readmission agreement to ensure humane refugee returns and prevent situations like the “hot return” of 48 asylum seekers, including several from Darfur, to Egypt in August 2007. The “hot return” was found by the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) to be in violation of Israel’s international obligations.

http://www.ajc.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=ijITI2PHKoG&b=849241&ct=5114605

[Violet_Crumble]

21. And has Israel's policy changed since then?

All you posted was something urging Israel to change that policy, not anything that said it had changed...

[oberliner]

23. From what I've read, they don't have a policy at this point

I believe the government is in the process of formulating one.

What do you think Israel's policy ought to be in this regard?

[Violet_Crumble]

29. So David Baker was lying? Okay....

I'm now to believe that the Israeli govt didn't say it was going to send asylum seekers back from whence they came and that none were sent back to Egypt?

It doesn't matter how many asylum seekers get into Israel, even though it seems to be a cause of much oohing and aahing and praise. What matters is how they're treated and whether they're allowed to stay once they get there...

[oberliner]

30. He wasn't lying, but as I mentioned, that was from August 2007

From what I've read, Israel is currently meeting to determine what their policy should be vis-a-vis these refugees.

Here's a snippet from an article in JPost:

Last month, a three-week deadline was set for all of Israel's relevant authorities to establish a cohesive policy regarding the African refugees. That deadline expires next week.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert instructed the Public Security, Defense and Interior ministries to determine a long-term strategy.

Officials said they had held meetings on the issue, but would not release details of their plan until next week.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1205420743565&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

If you have additional current information, please share. I am not finding a lot of details at this point.