HR group: Palestinians died awaiting treatment

[stranger81]

Five Palestinians, including a one-year-old baby, have died in Gaza over the past two months after Israel rejected on security grounds or delayed their requests to cross the border for treatment in Israel or elsewhere, Physicians for Human Rights announced Thursday.

"The Israel Security Agency (Shin Bet) misuses and overuses security reasons for rejecting requests by Palestinians of all ages," said PHR in a press statement. "These deaths point to the urgent need for public oversight of the ISA, which has been given unlimited power in this matter. These cases, like others, are examples of the fact that the manipulative use made of 'security' by the ISA costs lives."


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?c=JPArticle&cid=1205420751214&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

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[subsuelo]

2. Which of the victims was trying to annihilate Israel? The baby?

The 77 year old woman in need of chemotherapy?

[Vegasaurus]

7. The point is that perhaps the Palestinians should stop relying on Israelis

for help, while they are making efforts to murder them and take over their country.

Israeli doctors save the lives of Palestinians all the time. However, an Israeli cannot even take the chance of taking a hike without fear of being murdered.

If the Palestinians expect Israelis to save their lives, perhaps they should stop trying to kill them.

[subsuelo]

8. The baby and cancer victim weren't trying to kill anyone

[Violet_Crumble]

9. Don't interrupt its stereotyping spree with facts!

Don't you know? Palestinian babies get together whenever they're put in daycare and plot to murder all Jews??? ;)

[Vegasaurus]

10. Most likely not

but many people have tried to gain access to Israel and blow people up, while posing as ill. It happens, just like the terrorists who like to blow up their aid trucks or their own power plants, being supplied by Israel.

What kind of stupidity is it to try to bite the hand that feeds you? Israel does not NEED to provide medical care to people with whom they are at war. Do you understand that? They can get their medical care from any one of the Arab countries. Go through Egypt (if they can get through the ten foot concrete barrier). There are doctors there.

[Name removed]

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[Vegasaurus]

23. It isn't "killing babies"

they can get their treatment elsewhere. Talk to the Egyptians about opening their ten foot concrete fence that THEY constructed to keep the Gazans out.

The Gazans can get their electricity elsewhere too, if the militants insist upon blowing up the power plants supplying Gazan electricity, or the aid trucks delivering Gazan aid.

Pretty simply. If you want help from your enemy, stop the ongoing terror, and perhaps people will help you. Israelis are not obliged to provide medical care for people who have sworn to obliterate them.

[subsuelo]

24. have you no sense of humanity ??

[pelsar]

29. why do you believe israelis

should risk their lives...when a very safe alternative exists?...where no lives are at risk?

[subsuelo]

30. we're talking about babies, don't give me that crap about risking lives

[pelsar]

32. so israeli children dont count?

i guess you dont know that the crossings are targeted when israelis show up to "deliver"...or that once there is someone in a hospital there are visitors, family etc, that have used their medical passes to kill israeli children (one of the more grosser ones was the plan to blow up the ER room, but the bomber was caught....)

so i guess in your view, that even though there are safer options...its preferable that israelis risk their lives and as in the past, get killed for giving in to humanitarian values that some Palestinians (hamas) dont seem to appreciate.

why is that?

[Name removed]

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[stranger81]

35. I'll answer a variant of your question, since I don't accept any of your three premises

It's far from clear that Israeli lives would be risked absent the denial of critically urgent medical care to infants and the terminally ill, or that an equally viable alternative exists that would be "safer."

And a society that deems it necessary to show callous disregard for the well-being of infants, terminally ill patients and others in need of urgent medical assistance would do well to question whether such a society is sustainable or desirable.

Having said all of that, here are just two of the reasons why I believe critical, life-saving medical assistance should not be refused Palestinian infants and terminally ill simply because they are Palestinian:

(1) The Israeli state bears no small share of responsibility for putting Palestinians in a situation where even critical medical care is not available without crossing national or occupation boundaries. (And, conversely, Egypt/Jordan/insert Arab state here bears no such equivalent responsibility). You build your state on the backs of others, and you assume an obligation to those people.

(2) It's the moral, just thing to do for another human being in dire need of assistance, whether or not a five-thousand-old book describes them as a "chosen" person.

[pelsar]

40. well you premise is simply wrong

whether its out of ignorance...or a preference not to know...or perhaps dont even want to know, or knowing is irrelevant (probably true)...that i couldnt say.....

It's far from clear that Israeli lives would be risked absent the denial of critically urgent medical care to infants and the terminally ill, or that an equally viable alternative exists that would be "safer."

shall i assume that you have no real idea of what happens at the various border entry points into israel in terms of when the mortars/kassams are shot ..nor about the subsequent hospital visits of family to visit the ill and the attempts at killing israels during these visits? and why is going to egypt not a viable alternative...gazans have already chosen that route in the past.

your no 2, has no relevancy, though it does show how little you actually know about the situation.


___
And a society that deems it necessary to show callous disregard for the well-being of infants, terminally ill patients and others in need of urgent medical assistance would do well to question whether such a society is sustainable or desirable.

i assume you talking about the US with its lack of universal health care and a tendency to bomb other countries into oblivion....but i do believe there is hope for the US and dont believe that the society should be disbanded just yet.

[stranger81]

42. We'll have to agree to disagree on the rest, but you're spot on about the USA

It's bad here, and getting worse, and the disregard for lives that are not American is maddening.

How many more days before the Shrub is gone? Are we under 300 yet?

[pelsar]

54. its not a matter of 'disagreement"...

its a matter of simple facts;

1) hamas and friends mortar the entrance points when israelis are there.....
2) Palestinians have used medical passes and other humanitarian gestures to kill israelis

3) hamas is presently not mortaring or killing egyptians and when Palestinians have gone to egypt for medical reasons none of them, that i have heard of, have tried to kill egyptians..hence its less risky to go south for everyone involved.

are any of the above false to your knowledge?

[stranger81]

59. You've stated broad generalizations, not specific facts.

Hence our disagreement.

[pelsar]

62. facts are confusing?

attacks on israeli border control points between gaza and israel is a generalization?

Palestinians using medical passes to kill israelis is a "generalization"...i'll pass that on to the dead israelis

perhaps names and dates are necessary?

[stranger81]

69. Try reading more closely.

Never said "facts are confusing" -- merely pointed out that your broad generalizations are not "facts.

You say that "hamas and friends mortar the entrance points when israelis are there....." Unless it's the case that this happens every time Israelis are at the entrance points, then this is a broad generalization not supported by the specific facts (which indicate that this happens sometimes, but not all the time).

You also say that Palestinians use medical passes and other humanitarian gestures to kill israelis. Again, it's simply not true that every Palestinian with a medical pass is out to kill an Israeli, or that every plea for some simple humanity is a subterfuge for murder. And given that fact, your statement is yet another broad generalization that penalizes all Palestinians for the actions of a few.

Finally you say that because "hamas is presently not mortaring or killing egyptians and when Palestinians have gone to egypt for medical reasons none of them, that i have heard of, have tried to kill egyptians..hence its less risky to go south for everyone involved." It's only "less risky ... for everyone involved" for Palestinians to seek medical care in Egypt if you assume one of two things: either (1) that medical care available in Egypt is of comparable quality, can be comparably accessed, and is of equivalent distance away from the sick person in question as an Israeli hospital; or (2) when you say "everyone involved," what you really mean is Israelis only, without consideration for the increased health risks posed to the person forced to seek medical care at a hospital located further away than Israeli hospitals, or at a hospital that cannot provide care of equivalent quality to an Israeli hospital.

Both of these assumptions are flawed, and neither is supported by the facts.

[Vegasaurus]

70. The point is

that if these bombings at borders and hospitals happen often enough that many Israelis don't want to risk their lives to help Palestinians.

You may think that is heartless, but the fact is, most people just aren't suicidal enough to put the lives of others above their own, even if the risk isn't "all the time".

[Name removed]

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[stranger81]

26. And I'm still curious how long it takes you to formulate a thought like that.

Natural talent, or learned response? Inquiring minds want to know . . . .

[hifalutin]

3. Did you read the responses?

Most of them follow along this vein......

65. Is this some sort of joke?
They murder and then celebrate the murder of Jews (and Christians) and then they complain about their medical care from Israel? Unbelievable!! If they choose to build rockets and bombs instead of hospitals they deserve exactly what they get!
Norman Lepoff, M.D. - USA (03/23/2008 19:17)

This coming from a doctor.

[subsuelo]

4. So hatred and stupidity finds its way to doctors too

What else is new?

[breakaleg]

5. Yeah, and "internet" doctor. nt

[Violet_Crumble]

6. Not much difference between that and what we see at DU nowadays n/t

[azurnoir]

13. I have worked

with an Israeli (Jewish, in case anyone wants to quibble) doctor who does not feel that way.
If the MD who posted that was my doctor or my kids he wouldn't be anymore, no MD should go along with the allowing children to die because of politics, which is what this was. Or will there be claims the baby was a "danger" or apparently that the baby deserved it.

[stranger81]

18. hey look -- if doctors are in favor of murdering children out of sheer racial hostility,

then it must be the right thing to do.

?????????

[pelsar]

11. there are other options...

just south of gaza lies egypt.....the 5 Palestenians could have just as easily gone south instead of north and asked for help.

yesterday some kassams, that the gaza govt does not stop,..... landed on the sufa crossing, where israelis risk their lives to bring in supplies to gaza

i really dont know why israelis should have to risk their lives when the gaza govt is trying to terrorize them.....
____

gaza has a govt, its up to their own govt to work out the problems and solutions for their society....thats what they were elected for...and its their responsibility to find their solutions

[hifalutin]

12. I am slowly beginning to understand why,

they want it both ways.

They are hungry, so they want you to feed them.
They are sick, so they want you to heal them.

They have been taught to hate you, so they want to kill you.

What other choices are there?
Hamas is keeping them victims.

[azurnoir]

14. Sounds good

so the Israeli government will release the funds it has been withholding? Or have they all gone to Abbas?


http://www.jerusalemites.org/News%20In%20English/english/2007/June/164.htm

[pelsar]

15. isnt abbas the offical govt?

or is it hamas....that killed off the opposition?

[azurnoir]

16. Depends who you ask

America, Israel, or the Palestinians. Hamas got the opposition before it got them, think of it as George's "Bay of Pigs", but in your backyard. Israel should be more careful about who it calls "friend".

[MaryCeleste]

22. Egypt has been letting some medical cases in as well

[hifalutin]

19. Do you know if there

is going to be an investigation into this? One would hope so.

[stranger81]

20. Three guesses, and the first two don't count . . . . .

As long as the dead aren't Jewish Israelis, why would there ever be an investigation?

[pelsar]

28. out of curiosity....and just for fun

why do you believe israelis should risk their lives to save Palestinians lives when in fact there is a safer option where no one is a risk?

[MaryCeleste]

21. By whom and of whom?

[pelsar]

27. why would there be?

israeli policy is in general not to endanger israeli lives when its not necessary. The crossings are dangerous places as history has shown and the Palestinians have an option, that doesnt endanger israelis lives, via egypt (there is a hospital at el arish about 20minutes south of gaza

[stranger81]

31. those damn Palestinians just deserve to die for not remembering

that Israeli lives are more equal than others.

Honestly, that anyone of any stripe would spend effort trying to defend this kind of disregard for basic humanity is simply appalling. I expect it on websites that shall not be named, but it's disheartening to hear from those who pretend to share basic political views.

[pelsar]

33. answer the question...if you can

egypt is the safer route...no lives have to be at risk....why not go there?

[stranger81]

37. Please see my response upthread to your identical question. [n/t]

[azurnoir]

44. Can you answer the post #39 ? n/t

[Vegasaurus]

34. On the contrary

Palestinian militants (and their many, many supporters) seem to believe that Israeli lives are worth nothing, which is why they so routinely blow Israelis up, every chance they get (it would happen more often, but those pesky checkpoints and wall have curbed that a good deal).

You expect Israelis to risk their lives to deliver food, goods, electricity. Even to save Palestinian lives. All the while, Palestinians will exploit this help to try and blow up Israelis.

And whose lives do you think are more valuable?

[stranger81]

38. I believe all lives are equally valuable,

and I don't believe, as you do, that one side in this conflict is blameless and the other solely responsible.

I think those are our two primary points of difference.

[pelsar]

41. no you dont...

you've made it clear that israeli children must risk their lives to save Palestinians due to politics and your version of morality....

[stranger81]

43. When I need you to attribute motives and beliefs to me that I don't actually hold,

I'll ask. Until then, I'll speak for myself.

[breakaleg]

48. So then Israel would send in children with medical supplies and food to Gaza? Interesting.

[pelsar]

49. israelis get bombed...

when they're at the border control points bringing in supplies, when they working a the electrical station giving the gazans electricity, etc..

[breakaleg]

53. So the children are manning the border crossing then?nt

[pelsar]

55. my neighbors kids do...

and mine will next year....and they are our children....

[breakaleg]

57. Silly me. I thought you were referring to minor children. Interesting choice of classification

though, given that 13 year old Palestinian children are often considered adults by Israel but what could likely be 18+ year olds are still considered children when they are Israeli.

[pelsar]

63. pov....

my children remain my kids, as do my neighbors kids, whom I watched grow up.........the court may see them as adults....

[azurnoir]

45. Same as above, please answer the question in post #39 n/t

[breakaleg]

47. I expect Israel to provide these things as an occupying power who has just such a

responsibility to the residents of Gaza.

[pelsar]

50. UN's definition not good enough?

i always enjoy how definitions change when it comes to israel.....The UN definition of what any occupying power is no longer fits gaza...so what does a good solid "progressive" do?...make up a new definition.

This is very important, changing word definitions is essential otherwise one cant blame everything on israel and might have to actually look at the Palestinians for some kind of responsibility.....

[breakaleg]

51. Has the UN officially said the occupation has ended? Where does the air, land and sea blockaid fall

into this?

[pelsar]

56. lets start with basics..

do you or do you not accept the UNs definition of occupation...very simple question, nothing tricky about it. Requires only a yes or a no

[breakaleg]

58. I'm not interested in hearing Israel's postion on the status of Gaza. I'm interested in whether

there is a consensus of what it is. From what I can see, there isn't one.

[pelsar]

60. UN....i didnt even mention israel...

the questions stands: do you accept the UNs definition of what is an occupation?

[azurnoir]

52. It is not an occupation it is a seige

and if Israel does not want to provide medical care, electrcity and other essentials to Gaza seeing as how Israel is not the occupier, then why does Israel not say so, why reduce power but not cut it off completely?

[hifalutin]

46. I understand,

thank you, what a helluva way to have to live, for both sides.

[azurnoir]

39. As many posters here have pointed out

"Why should Israel treat Palestinian patients?" OK, if Israel does not want to treat Palestinians then an official declaration of that intent should be made. Israel should publicly announce that no more Palestinian medical patients will be allowed into Israel for treatment, then no problems, no more HR groups making bothersome announcements.

So the question is "why has Israel not announced publicly that it will not treat Palestinians in it's medical facilities?"

It would simplify and clarify things for all concerned, would it not?

[pelsar]

64. thats what they should do...

by confusing the issue with some "humanitarian treatment" and sometimes based on security and political concerns it confuses the issue and keeps it in the news. Israel, as its doing with the electricity should simply say "no more"....

having the govt of gaza trying to kill and terrorize israelis and then asking for help is absurd. As long as they have alternative options, which they do, then i dont see the moral problem here.

[Vegasaurus]

66. I agree that it is absurd

It is not Israel's responsibility to care for the people trying to kill them.

I think that Gaza should get all of its aid, electricity, fuel and medical care from the Arab nations. If there comes a time when Palestinans stop trying to kill Isarelis, then a more collaborative relationship between the two groups could again be forged.

[azurnoir]

67. Israel has completely shut off electricity to Gaza? n/t

[pelsar]

68. eventually..yes...

electricity and water, and food and everything else, provided they have an option with egypt...or that option should be forced.

as long as the gaza govt is trying to kill israelis daily, the citizens of gaza should receive nothing from the israeli govt.

[Behind the Aegis]

61. On the flip side...

Palestinian Twins Under Rocket Fire from Gaza

When a Palestinian woman gave birth to twins in an Israeli hospital she experienced what it is like to be the target of rocket fire from the Gaza Strip.

One of the Palestinian twins from the Gaza Strip attended by an Israeli nurse.
The humming noise in the sky over Beit Lahia grows slowly louder. It sounds as if the buzzing of a hornet were being amplified by loud speakers in a football stadium. Residents of the Gaza Strip call them "Sannana," or the humming ones, the small unmanned drones that the Israelis use to scan the border region for rocket commandos -- and then to liquidate them with precisely targeted missiles.

Ashraf Shafii has climbed onto the roof his house and is looking across strawberry fields toward the border wall. The smoke-belching towers of the power plant in the Israeli city of Ashkelon jut into the sky along the horizon. His wife is over there in Ashkelon today.

Shafii, a 34-year-old lab technician at the Islamic University of Gaza, glances at his six-year-old daughter. "We were so desperate to have more children," he says. For years, he waited in vain for his wife to bear a son. When she turned 30, the couple decided to get fertility treatment.

[LeftishBrit]

65. Terribly sad, and I strongly condemn the rejections of patients...

Some delays while security is checked are more excusable, given the real terrorism risks; but I do agree that there needs to be more oversight of the ISA.

But (a) I do agree that Egypt and the other Arab countries need to do more. if they are prepared to condemn Israel for not doing more to help Palestinians (with whom they are in a state of war), why can't they do more to help Palestinians (whom they supposedly support)?

(b) these things are certainly not exclusive to Israel, and happen in many countries of the world where there is NO security risk involved. Here is a horrifying headline from the UK, which I posted elsewhere in a different connection:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/mar/20/immigration.immigrationandpublicservices