Pope baptizes prominent Italian Muslim

[msmcghee]

VATICAN CITY - Italy's most prominent Muslim, an iconoclastic writer who condemned Islamic extremism and defended Israel, converted to Catholicism Saturday in a baptism by the pope at a Vatican Easter service.
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An Egyptian-born, non-practicing Muslim who is married to a Catholic, Magdi Allam infuriated some Muslims with his books and columns in the newspaper Corriere della Sera newspaper, where he is a deputy editor. He titled one book "Long Live Israel."

As a choir sang, Pope Benedict XVI poured holy water over Allam's head and said a brief prayer in Latin.

"We no longer stand alongside or in opposition to one another," Benedict said in a homily reflecting on the meaning of baptism. "Thus faith is a force for peace and reconciliation in the world: distances between people are overcome, in the Lord we have become close."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080322/ap_on_re_eu/pope_muslim_convert;_ylt=AiSKCJY9C_XYRv2eTMogXzlvaA8F
">Full article

* No agenda lies behind my posting of this article. I am interested in the power of strong beliefs in people's minds and thought some here might find it interesting. I am an atheist who does not delight in poking my finger in the eyes of those who are not.

[CTyankee]

1. I think it is appalling that the Pope did this!

Talk about "poking a finger in the eyes" of the Muslim world. To do this so publicly and by the Pope, no less, is surely going to inflame radical Muslims even more against the West. Why couldn't the guy just go to his wife's parish priest and ask to be converted and baptized?

I really don't know what is gained by this kind of public hoopla over a baptism. I know there is a lot to be risked...

[msmcghee]

2. Why should a conversion from one religion to another . .

. . be seen as poking someone in the eye? I think he did it so publicly because part of his motivation was to show that Islam is intolerant. And that intolerance seems to be what caused him to convert to a large extent. If these things can cause some Muslims to question the intolerant components of their religion I think that would increase the chances for peace in the world.

[breakaleg]

3. I wouldn't have thought of it this way until I read your post, but you have a point.

Baptism is supposed to be a private thing. Why make such a public event if it's not to make a point about his leaving the Muslim religion.

[CTyankee]

4. Yes, the public thing kinda reminds me of how empires were changed

when rulers submitted to the authority of the Pope, starting with Constantine. And all that warfare between factions of the nobles and the church.

It just didn't set well with me...

[breakaleg]

5. And if there was any doubt, I just looked at who posted this peice. Too funny...

[msmcghee]

6. Why is it bad to make that point?

Remember, the Muslim religion makes that point that those who do such things deserve to be killed - by any Muslim who has the opportunity. I think it's good to make the point he did - and as publicly as he did it - to show that that intolerant aspect of Islam will not be tolerated in the free world.

If he did his conversion in secret it would still get out as he is a public figure and author. But then Islamists would likely call him a coward who deserves his punishment even more.

[CTyankee]

12. Submission to the head of the Roman Catholic Church is really what this signifies,IMO.

But maybe this is just the Italian way, with fanfare and flourishes, that we Americans don't quite appreciate.

He COULD have been baptized privately and later writing about it, making his case in his own words, without bringing in the "authority" of the Pope who is, after all, a head of state. It may strike the Muslims as being yet another, if modern, "crusade."

[msmcghee]

17. It is a crusade in some sense . .

. . a crusade of ideas. I don't find much inspiration in any religious ideas myself (except for things along the lines of the Sermon on the Mount and such which can be found in most religious ideologies just because they make so damned much sense they couldn't leave them out) but I have great respect for freedom of thought, expression, association, speech, etc. of any stripe.

I think we should be willing to defend those freedoms whenever and wherever they are challenged in the world.

I may argue like hell against ideas I find repulsive but I have never been much for censorship.

[leftynyc]

18. And if he did do it to make a point

So what? He's entitled.

[LeftishBrit]

8. I don't quite see that it's appalling...

I wouldn't want to become a Catholic (or any religion); and if I did, I would do so quietly; and I am far from being a fan of this particular Pope. But the Pope didn't force the man to convert, or forcibly baptize him. I suppose some people who are serious about becoming/ being Catholics would regard it as particularly special to be baptized by the Pope himself. The man is doubtless putting himself at some risk from his former community; but he's the one who chose to take the risk. And people are certainly allowed to be Catholics in Italy!

(Just out of interest, how did this get into I/P - shouldn't it be in the Religion forum?)

[CTyankee]

10. Oh, I dunno, maybe the whole publicity deal just irritated me.

I don't think the Pope just decides what a cool thing this would be to do. I think it was carefully thought out for its propaganda value. It struck me as a perfect example of "triumphalism."

[LeftishBrit]

11. I assume that it was Allam who thought it would be a cool thing to do, and the Pope agreed

And most religious leaders go in for lots of propaganda. I'm not *enthused* by this episode; but on the scale of religious propaganda it doesn't bother me that much (consenting adults and all that). I'm much more bothered, for example, about Catholic and Protestant leaders' influence on state laws about birth control, abortion, gay rights, etc.

[CTyankee]

14. Oh, me too.

I think my opinions here are a bit colored by my recent forays into art history. I just finished a book on art and life in Renaissance Venice and got a full whammy of religious politics mixed in. I'm going to do an art tour there next month so I'm getting aware of the church history and its interplay with the Church...interestin stuff!

[msmcghee]

16. Yes, I envy you.

I've never been to Italy but hope to get there some day.

Art is many things to many people. One thing that Rick Steves talks about is how art has been (and is) an expression of personal and social identity. I'm not sure if you get Rick Steves on PBS back on the East coast but he does a wonderful travel program and I think he was an art history major.

Added: He's now doing a series of public talks in his spare time on why marijuana should be legalized. My hero!

[CTyankee]

22. The Smithsonian has a wonderful, value priced art tour (not the one I'm taking in May)

called Italian Masterpieces. It is one of their few reasonably priced tours. I did it in the fall of 2006. Of course, it wasn't long enough in Florence so I'll have to go back, but we did have a nice stay in Perugia which I loved. I need to go back to Rome. I have friends there and want to take my granddaughter for her 13th birthday...

[msmcghee]

23. Sounds like a most excellent adventure! n/t

[msmcghee]

13. There were several references in the article . .

. . to Israel.

"Allam also explained his decision to title a recent book "Viva Israele" by saying he wrote it after he received death threats from Hamas.

Having been condemned to death, I have reflected a long time on the value of life. And I discovered that behind the origin of the ideology of hatred, violence and death is the discrimination against Israel. Everyone has the right to exist except for the Jewish state and its inhabitants," he said. "Today, Israel is the paradigm of the right to life."

Also, the article also points out that,

"Egypt's highest Islamic cleric, the Grand Mufti Ali Gomaa, wrote last year against the killing of apostates, saying there is no worldly retribution for Muslims who abandon their religion and that punishment would come in the afterlife."

It's good they included that IMO.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

26. He can have the spot I vacated ;)

[Submariner]

7. This pope harbors those that aid and abet child rape, and he is a POS

When he returns Bernie Law who fled the states to seek refuge in the vatican, then he can begin an apology tour. Until then, the brown-shirted bastard should shut his pie hole, and he certainly shouldn't be practicing his make believe baptism ritual on those that practice other make believe religions. All this dope does is inflame more opposition and hate. Stupid f*cker.

[Shaktimaan]

15. Glad that's all cleared up then.

he certainly shouldn't be practicing his make believe baptism ritual on those that practice other make believe religions. All this dope does is inflame more opposition and hate. Stupid f*cker.

We can all pray for the day that everyone learns to be as tolerant and open-minded as yourself. The sooner we stamp out ideas different from your own, the sooner we can finally put hate and opposition to bed forever.

:sarcasm:

[leftynyc]

19. Your post made me laugh out loud

I don't think I've ever done that in the I/P forum before. Thanks. Sometimes I think if people only heard themselves speaking what they were typing - they'd realize how ridiculous they sound.

[Shaktimaan]

24. Aw shucks. Thank you.

But in all honesty I didn't do anything. All the credit has to go to Submariner, who actually wrote the side-splittingly funny part. I just happened to be the first person to point it out.

[LeftishBrit]

9. Well, now this Italian has something in common with Tony Blair.

[azurnoir]

20. I wonder if the publicity relates to this

Islam has surpassed Roman Catholicism as the world's largest religion, the Vatican newspaper said Sunday.

"For the first time in history, we are no longer at the top: Muslims have overtaken us," Monsignor Vittorio Formenti said in an interview with the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano. Formenti compiles the Vatican's yearbook.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2008-03-30-muslims-catholics_N.htm?csp=34

Sort of an "in your face one more for our side" from the Vatican, besides the article said he was non-practicing, which to me says not Muslim.


when I went to the link I got an error page and I searched Vatican Muslim and that was the story(s) I got.

[msmcghee]

21. Heh . . . ruh, rah! Sorry about the link. Try this one.

This one now seems to work.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080322/ap_on_re_eu/pope_muslim_convert;_ylt=AiSKCJY9C_XYRv2eTMogXzlvaA8F

It looks like I truncated the last few characters in the link when I copied it. Forgot to test.

[Shaktimaan]

29. Anyone else find it weird that they describe

Catholicism as its own religion? Also from the article...

When considering all Christians and not just Catholics, Christians make up 33% of the world population, Formenti said.

What, do they not see themselves and Protestants as following the same religion? He seems to jump categories back to just "Christian" again here...

"It is true that while Muslim families, as is well known, continue to make a lot of children, Christian ones on the contrary tend to have fewer and fewer," the monsignor said.

And by the way, WOW! Get a load of that casually mentioned "fact" there. Actually, the highest birth rate goes not to Muslims but to Sub Saharan Africans, mostly Christian. And while the Muslim birth rate is number two it is also the fastest declining, probably due to globalization and increased education among women. Basically, this guy's a douche.

[azurnoir]

30. Not so much different

more who does it "right" or who "Dad" likes best. In the past Catholics and Protestants burned each other as "heritics". Really though it encapsulates the problems between all of the big 3 of the Abrahamic religions: who "Dad" likes best, who "talks" to him right, who calls him the right name.....

Now on the birth rate seems the monsignor forgets the Catholic churches rules about contraception.

[msmcghee]

31. Yeah, every time I read the article different things jump out.

As I mentioned, my initial interest was in the way strong beliefs seemed to lie behind most of the behavior exhibited - including both the Muslim and Catholic players in the drama. When I first started posting in this forum I already had an appreciation for strong beliefs as drivers of conflict. Over time and especially because of my experiences in this forum and the things we discuss I have come to see how tribal beliefs are often the drivers of the most destructive conflicts.

One characteristic of tribal behavior is that members of a tribe tend to see only bad things about rival tribes and only good things about their own. I'm often accused of seeing only good things about the Jews of Israel and bad things about Palestinians or Arabs. However, I'd say most members of this forum share that tribal myopia to some extent.

What makes it interesting is that while tribalism is instinctive and subjective - there are objective differences between tribes. For example, all tribes have their traditions and beliefs regarding how they treat other tribes and how they treat their own members in terms of tolerance. And therefore if tolerance is an important measure of morality to someone they will tend to judge various tribes by those qualities. (It is to me.)

There is a difference, it seems to me, between simply saying good for my tribe and bad on yours - and saying "these are the moral standards by which tribes should be judged and here's how I apply those standards to this event or conflict". It's very hard for humans to do this objectively because those directly involved will already be on one side or the other - usually based on factors they have no control over. Observers, like most of us in this forum though, are still indirectly affected by the conflict. Our tribal instincts cause us to identify with one side or the other.

I'm not claiming that I am more objective or less tribal than anyone else here and I'm not making claims about anyone else. Just that these are the things I'm thinking about when I read articles like this - and when I'm reading the comments. When I read comments I tend to create a map of each member's tribal and/or moral beliefs and it's interesting when someone says something that causes me to revise their map. And I like it when we get new members for that reason.

Actually, I think everyone does this subconsciously anyway. Tribal belief mapping is a critical component in the human survival toolkit. I just try to do it consciously, too. One thing I've noticed is how difficult it is to do this with any objectivity when one is being personally attacked. Observing myself, I see that being personally involved in conflict removes objectivity from my mind and I go into a defensive survival mode where I can only see bad things about my opponent and virtue in myself.

I haven't participated much in the Obama, Clinton forums but I have been lurking. It is really amazing to me how in just a few weeks so many members have gone from being open to either candidate winning the nomination - not without some regrets if their favorite didn't make it - to deciding that only their candidate would get their vote in the GE and they don't care if that means a McCain win. I have seen the formation of two rival and bitter tribes when before there was only one tribe looking for a new chief. I attribute most of that to the posts of a small number of members who personalized their attacks early on and have relentlessly continued to the point that everybody now pretty much despises their opponent's tribe and its members. It will be interesting to see if these two tribes will ever re-connect or if DU will become the home of only one of them.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

25. Why is this on the I/P forum? nt

[Igel]

27. The question crossed my mind, too.

Perhaps the dreaded word "Israele" triggered some kind of filter. Surprised threads mentioning "Disraeli" don't wind up here.

[bemildred]

28. Maybe it's safer down here.

Lord knows what would happen if this caught the wind in GD or something.