Dichter's assistant injured by sniper fire near southern Kibbutz

[henank]

Ynet

Palestinian sniper opens fire at internal security minister's entourage during tour near Kibbutz Nir Am in southern Israel, lightly to moderately wounding one of his advisors. Earlier, gunshots fired at farmers in Kibbutz Ein Hashlosha; no injuries reported

...snip...

The minister was hosting a group of managers from the Canada-Israel Committee (CIC), a pro-Israel lobby group, who visited the observation tower in the Gaza vicinity area in order to examine the threat on Israel. According to estimates, a Palestinian sniper fired the shots.

The observation tower, which overlooks the northern Gaza Strip from Ashkelon to the al-Bureij and al-Marazi refugee camp in the heart of the Strip, is considered a popular hiking site.

Earlier, Palestinian fired at farmers in Kibbutz Ein Hashlosha. There were no reports of injuries. Some 30 youths from the Kibbutz Movement arrived at the area Friday morning in order to assist the farmers in their work. Large army forces secured the activity.

[henank]

1. Way to go

to get more Israeli concessions. :sarcasm:

[azurnoir]

2. But I guess this doesn't count

Israeli settlers kill Palestinian university student
Date: 01 / 04 / 2008 Time: 14:46
تكبير الخط تصغير الخط
(Ma'anImages)
Bethlehem – Ma'an – A Palestinian university student was killed by an Israeli settler at a hitchiking post on Route 60 near the Shilo Israeli settlement between Nablus and Ramallah in the northern West Bank on Monday, Israeli and Palestinian security sources
said.

http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=28586

no ones hands are clean here, but those "Pali's" better remember who has bigger guns or something is that it?:sarcasm:

[oberliner]

3. The Palestinian who was killed in the story you cited was attempting to stab an Israeli

Israeli kills Palestinian knifeman in attempted West Bank attack

An Israeli hitchhiker shot dead a knife-wielding Palestinian in the West Bank on Monday afternoon after the man tried to stab him and a companion as they waited for a ride near the settlement of Shiloh.

An investigation into the incident ascertained that the two hitchers spotted a man running toward them, carrying a knife with a 20-cm blade. One of the two hitchhikers pulled out his personal weapon and shot the man.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/970302.html

[azurnoir]

4. Oh so that makes it OK

turn it around and it would be a "terror attack"

[oberliner]

5. It just seems like a relevant detail that Ma'an News opted not to include in its story

The story you posted does not include any context and gives the appearance that an innocent Palestinian man was killed by an Israeli man for no particular reason.

That the Palestinian was in the process of attempting to stab the Israeli with a knife does seem worth noting.

[azurnoir]

6. Is it possible that

the story you posted is equally biased? I am willing to bet there is more to this, than either story says.

[oberliner]

7. Anything is possible

It's possible that the Israeli shot the Palestinian for any number of reasons.

One possibility that I think is worth considering is that the Palestinian was attempting to stab the Israelis and was therefore shot in self-defense.

There seems to be a fair amount of evidence to suggest that may have been the case.

I would be interested in reading any account of this incident that might shed more light on what took place.

[azurnoir]

8. The problem is that

Israeli sources are not going to say anything more and Arab sources are "unreliable".

[oberliner]

10. I do not agree

I think that Israeli sources do a very good job of investigative journalism and I don't think that Arab sources are unreliable.

[Dick Dastardly]

12. Haaretz is very reliable, many complain it takes an anti Israel bias

The same thing cant be said of Maan which is a known unreliable propaganda rag.





Here is another

After 5:30 p.m. on Monday afternoon, an Arab man approached the Shiloh Junction bus stop and began talking to two people, an adult and a teenager, who were waiting there. In an interview with Arutz Sheva, the teenager, Hillel Maeir, described the events which followed: After a short conversation in broken English and Hebrew, which aroused the suspicion of the two, the 16-year-old young man decided to move away, behind a concrete barrier at the bus stop while the older man placed his hand on his personal weapon.

At that point, the attacker suddenly pulled out a six-inch knife and tried to stab the adult Israeli. Because of his fear of getting entangled with the law for using his weapon, the would-be victim waited until the last second to draw his personal weapon. Hillel Maeir described that as the terrorist's knife was coming down toward the Jewish man, he managed to cock his pistol and shoot the terrorist all in the same motion of drawing his weapon.

The bullet knocked the Arab off his feet and wounded him. When the terrorist then reached into his shirt, the civilian interpreted the motion as a possible attempt to detonate an explosive vest, and he shot again, this time killing his attacker. It later turned out that the PA resident was reaching for a second, concealed knife.



As is its practice in most cases of such foiled "lone wolf" terror attacks, the Palestinian Authority presented the would-be attacker as an innocent victim, murdered by the Zionists. A PA news outlet controlled by Hamas referred to the dead man as a shahid ("martyr") in a story under the heading "Zionist Settlers Kill Palestinian in Cold Blood". The Fatah-controlled PA news agency WAFA identified the terrorist as 22-year-old Abed al-Latif Kharoub and, like Hamas, claimed he was "shot dead in a cold blood by a group of colonizers as he was walking near Tarmas'aya town, north Ramallah."


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/125752



From Palestinian WAFA

Jewish Colonisers Kill Citizen in north Ramallah


RAMALLAH, March 31, 2008 (WAFA)-A group of Jewish colonizers killed on Monday evening a citizen in the West Bank city of north Ramallah governorate, security sources said.

They added that Abed al-Latif Kharoub 22, of Hares village, was shot dead in a cold blood by a group of colonizers as he was walking near Tarmas'aya town, north Ramallah.

http://www.wafa.ps/english/body.asp?id=11400



From the Jerusalem Post

A Palestinian man was shot dead after attempting to stab two Israeli hitchhikers near Shiloh, Judea and Samaria police said on Monday. Both civilians escaped unharmed.

Police spokesman Dani Poleg confirmed that the attacker was killed by an Israeli civilian who fired on him using his handgun.

The incident took place at a hitchhiking post on Highway 60, between Shiloh and the Eli Junction, on Monday evening. "We have a military report saying the assailant is now dead. Two civilians were at the scene during the attack, and one fired on the Palestinian attacker," Poleg said.

He explained that police were taking eyewitness testimonials on the scene and that the investigation was not yet complete.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1206632377910&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[Dick Dastardly]

11. Uhhhhh yeah it makes it OK

unless you think its not ok to defend against a knife wielding assailant. I dont even know what to say:banghead: :shrug:

[azurnoir]

13. Shooting someone is always the thing to do

for some I guess, so how far away was the guy?

[Dick Dastardly]

14. Its the thing to do with a knife wielding wacko coming at you

I dont understand why you have a problem with protecting yourself from a knife wielding maniac. Should people wait and get stabbed and let the police handle it? Should people wait to get stabbed to make sure that was the intent of someone coming at you with a knife and then shoot him? Should people not fight back at all and just get stabbed? Or maybe Israelis should not defend themselves from knife wielding Palestinian maniacs as they should not defend against Palestinian missile attacks?

To answer your question of distance the reports say they were close and talking. The maniac was close and asking questions.
Any normal person would defend themselves even those who are normally non violent would go into self preservation mode by instinct.


Your response reminds me of a right wing joke I saw. The joke takes a poke at liberals and southern republicans but is wrong because only some liberals suscribe to the mindset it pokes fun at. Not this liberal, my response would be the republicans response as most liberals or any persons would for that matter.




Are you a Democrat? A Republican? Or a Southern Republican?

Here is a little test that will help you decide.

The answer can be found by posing the following question:

You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small
children. Suddenly, an Islamic Terrorist with a huge knife comes around
the corner, locks eyes with you, screams obscenities, praises Allah,
raises the knife, and charges at you. You are carrying a Glock cal .40,
and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you
and your family.

What do you do?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Democrat's Answer:

Well, that's not enough information to answer the question!

Does the man look poor! Or oppressed?

Have I ever done anything to him that would inspire him to attack?

Could we run away?

What does my wife think?

What about the kids?

Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of
his hand?

What does the law say about this situation?

Does the Glock have appropriate safety built into it?

Why am I carrying a loaded gun anyway, and what kind of message does
this send to society and to my children?

Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me?

Does he definitely want to kill me, or would he be content just to wound
me?

If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while
he was stabbing me?

Should I call 9-1-1?

Why is this street so deserted?

We need to raise taxes, have a paint and weed day and make this happier,
healthier street that would discourage such behavior.

This is all so confusing! I need to debate this with some friends for
few days and try to come to a consensus.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Republican's Answer:

BANG!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Southern Republican's Answer:

BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! click.....

(sounds of reloading).

BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! click

Daughter: "Nice grouping, Daddy! Were those the Winchester Silver Tips
or Hollow Points?"

Son: "Git-r-Dun Pop! Can I shoot the next one?"

Wife: "You ain't taking that to the Taxidermist!"



http://www.politicsandcurrentaffairs.co.uk/Forum/anything-goes/1931-republican-democrat-test.html

[azurnoir]

15. Then by your own word you are not a Democrat

so why are you here except as a troll?

Oh and BTW why then go for a kill shot, if the guy was such an "expert" marksman, kneecap not enough?

From the description of scene the distance is hard to judge except that the teenager had time to hide.

[Dick Dastardly]

16. No I said in the joke they misrepresent and generalize

that all liberals are anti gun and wont act to defend ourselves and family. Its not so
What I do think is trollish is the unreal criticism of someone defending themselves from a knife wielding maniac

If you know anything about firearms you would know that when it is pulled you go for the kill, you shoot for the torso which is the largest target. You dont want to take a chance and miss as the attacker can then stab you and or disarm you.


Its not hard to judge, they attacker was a few feet away. Maybe you will take that chance especially with other peoples lives but I wouldnt. Its simply amazing you cant handle an Israeli defending themselves from a knife wielding maniac.

[azurnoir]

17. What is amazing is that you keep trying to spin as

something it is not. I can not handle an Israeli trying to defend themselves? Standard line, no I question the circumstances. Apparently that is too much for you.

On your answer what would you have done?

[Dick Dastardly]

18. Is that why you tried to spin a claim that I was not a Dem and

I was a troll to question the circumstances. I am not spinning anything, no need to its obvious

You question the circumstances despite numerous reports but provide no reason why.



To answer your question, I would have shot the maniac too. I already said that

[azurnoir]

19. I did not have to spin anything

you posted the "joke" that parroted what I had written and was insulting to Dems, none of the reports say exactly how far away this guy was, at least one says that a teenager who was talking to him had time to walk away and hide behind a concrete wall, what I initially wrote was that Israeli papers would not say much different from Haaretz and Arab papers were "unreliable" later you post several links that back up what I said about news reports and then claim that I said Israelis are not supposed to defend themselves.

[Dick Dastardly]

20. Yes you did

I said it was not most dems and most people would shoot.

The teen had time to walk away because the older guy protected him. The papers did say they were close but you are playing stupid

When oberliner said the man tried to stab them you said "Oh so that makes it OK" which sounds like they shouldnt defend themselves. You kept up with this theme the whole time


Here is what the papers said which is pretty clear.

"After a short conversation in broken English and Hebrew, which aroused the suspicion of the two, the 16-year-old young man decided to move away, behind a concrete barrier at the bus stop while the older man placed his hand on his personal weapon.

At that point, the attacker suddenly pulled out a six-inch knife and tried to stab the adult Israeli. Because of his fear of getting entangled with the law for using his weapon, the would-be victim waited until the last second to draw his personal weapon. Hillel Maeir described that as the terrorist's knife was coming down toward the Jewish man, he managed to cock his pistol and shoot the terrorist all in the same motion of drawing his weapon. "




"An initial police investigation found that the assailant had approached the two hitchhikers with his hands in his pockets and began asking them questions in English.

Seconds later, he pulled out a knife and attempted to stab one of them. One of the Israelis drew his handgun and fired on the attacker, killing him.

A second knife was later found during a search of the assailant's body. A police sapper checked the body to ensure that he had no explosive devices. "





"At some point, a strange-looking man headed in their direction. He approached them, spoke in English, shook their hands and asked some questions. My son wanted to call the community guard, and the boy he was with put his hand on his gun. During their conversation, the terrorist leapt at the other boy, who shot him."

[azurnoir]

21. dupe delete n/t

[azurnoir]

22. Just what is it you are trying to prove here?

what's your point? You cherry pick parts of my comments and then give them a dishonest spin. If you want to believe or more likely want other to believe I said Israelis or is it really Israel should not defend it self fine, all your comments show is a reaction to being questioned

[Dick Dastardly]

23. I did not cherry pick anything. You made claims and

I challenged them. You failed to provide any evidence to back up your claim and ignored evidence to the contrary. I posted numerous articles including the Palestinian one which left out all details to spin it. When oberliner said the man tried to stab them you said "Oh so that makes it OK" I responded "Uhhhhh yeah it makes it OK unless you think its not ok to defend against a knife wielding assailant." which gave you the opportunity to state otherwise but you didnt. That sounds like you dont approve of defending yourself.

You kept up with this theme the whole time and ignored evidence provided and failed to provide evidence to support your stance. You instead tried to spin it with claims of spin against me as well as spinning my words into a personal attack saying "Then by your own word you are not a Democrat" and then saying I am a troll when I clearly said nothing of the sort. Instead of talking about the issue you go into off topic personal attacks. My claim of maybe you not thinking Israelis should defend themselves is not spin as your repeated responses, failure to provide evidence to support your stance and ignoring inconvienent evidence makes it seem that is the case.

I mean gee wiz the maniac walks up to them at a bus stop, was talking to them strangely and shook hands at one point then goes bezerk and pulled a 6 inch knife on them and you state "Oh so that makes it OK"(to shoot him) and are questioning how far the maniac is from them,spare me and please forgive me if I dont buy what you are shoveling because no rational person would question defending ones self from a bezerk knife wielding maniac unless they didnt think the person should defend themselves. If its something else let me know because you have not given any reason to make me think otherwise. Even if a maniac was across the street and pulled a knife and started running to me I would pop a cap in his ass before he got close enough to hurt me.

[pelsar]

24. so its not just me......

sometimes when i am involved in a discussions here i get the feeling that some people have absolutely no idea of how people naturally react when in life threatening situations...or what a situations of limited options means.....or for that matter what the actual environment is.....

btw this place is not "liberal"..its progressive. There is a very very difference as i have learned.

[Dick Dastardly]

26. No its not just you

The Israelis are the criminal attackers many times but not in this case and many with a pro palestinian view dont care about facts and just blame Israel even when they are not to blame, which is wrong. This also occurs with the pro Israel crowd. The universal fact is though that whatever ethnicity one is or political view on has, if some maniac goes bezerk at you with a 6 inch knife and you have a gun you are going to pull it and pop a cap in his ass almost as a natural reaction.


Yeah there is a difference but its supposed to be for Libs and Progressives from what I read.

[azurnoir]

25. What I am shoveling?

Just what is that? You have yet to answer, you base 10+ OT increasingly hyperbolic posts on one comment that you only quote half of; the half that is convenient to you of course. I said Oh that makes it alright. turn it around and it would have been a terror attack- meaning that if it had been the Israeli with the knife and the Palestinian had shot him it would not have been so clear cut.
I also question the kill shot as you pointed out apparently the Israeli was a marksman or so you assume.
Now in one of the many articles you posted, even ended with that the police were investigating what happened. And in your last sentence the scenario you describe would generally put you in jail at least in the US.

[Dick Dastardly]

27. More of the same, It looks like you are getting desperate

I did not just base it on one comment as I said it was a reccuring theme

I did not say he was a marksman, it was in the Joke and you know very well that you brought it up from the Joke. As I said even if so when you pull a gun you shoot for the torso or largest target not just to wound. Its easier to miss a knee than the torso. Ask any cop or personal defense expert on this

The newer articles that I posted along with it said the investigation concluded self defense, you know this very well.


Are you from the US?
It would not put you in jail in the US, If a maniac was coming at you with a knife from across the street you can shoot because you fear bodily harm. Hell in Texas you can even shoot someone for breaking in your home, so can your neighbor

Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. declared in Brown v. United States when upholding the no duty to retreat maxim that detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife.<[/b>


Florida Law for instance


The Florida statute allows the use of deadly force when a person reasonably believes it necessary to prevent the commission of a "forcible felony." Under the statute, forcible felonies include "treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual."<3>

The Florida law legalizes the use of defensive force by anyone "who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be." Furthermore, under the law, such a person "has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony." The statute also grants civil and criminal immunity to anyone found to have had such a reasonable belief


Delaware
The use of force upon or toward another person is justifiable when the defendant believes that such force is immediately necessary for the purpose of protecting the defendant against the use of unlawful force by the other person on the present occasion.

(b) Except as otherwise provided in subsections (d) and (e) of this section, a person employing protective force may estimate the necessity thereof under the circumstances as the person believes them to be when the force is used, without retreating, surrendering possession, doing any other act which the person has no legal duty to do or abstaining from any lawful action.

(c) The use of deadly force is justifiable under this section if the defendant believes that such force is necessary to protect the defendant against death, serious physical injury, kidnapping or sexual intercourse compelled by force or threat.





A Castle Doctrine (also known as a Castle Law or a Defense of Habitation Law) is an American legal concept derived from English Common Law, which designates one's place of residence (or, in some states, any place legally occupied, such as one's car or place of work) as a place in which one enjoys protection from illegal trespassing and violent attack. It then goes on to give a person the legal right to use deadly force to defend that place (his/her "castle"), and/or any other innocent persons legally inside it, from violent attack or an intrusion which may lead to violent attack. In a legal context, therefore, use of deadly force which actually results in death may be defended as justifiable homicide under the Castle Doctrine.

Castle Doctrines are legislated by state, and not all states in the US have a Castle Doctrine. Outside of the United States, the Castle Doctrine is sometimes pejoratively referred to as a "Make My Day" law <1> <2>, a reference to Dirty Harry.

Each state differs with respect to the specific instances in which the Castle Doctrine can be invoked, and what degree of retreat or non-deadly resistance (if any) is required before deadly force can be used.

In general, one (sometimes more) of a variety of conditions must be met before a person can legally use the Castle Doctrine:

An intruder must be making (or have made) an attempt to forcibly enter a premises uninvited
The intruder must be acting illegally -- i.e. the Castle Doctrine does not give the right to shoot officers of the law acting in the course of their legal duties
The occupant(s) of the home must reasonably believe that the intruder intends to inflict serious bodily harm, or death, upon an occupant of the home
The occupant(s) of the home must reasonably believe that the intruder intends to commit a felony
The occupant(s) of the home must reasonably believe that the intruder intends to commit arson
The occupant(s) of the home must reasonably believe that the intruder intends to commit burglary
The occupant(s) of the home must not have provoked or instigated an intrusion, or provoked or instigated an intruder to threaten or use deadly force
In all cases, the occupant(s) of the home must be there legally, must not be fugitives from the law, must not be using the Castle Doctrine to aid or abet another person in being a fugitive from the law, and must not use deadly force upon an officer of the law or an officer of the peace while they are performing or attempting to perform their legal duties.

Note: the term "home" is used because most states only apply their Castle Doctrine to a place of residence; however, some states extend the protection to other legally-occupied places such as automobiles and places of business.



Stand-your-ground laws (sometimes called shoot-first laws by critics) are statutes that allow the use of deadly force to defend against forcible unlawful entry or attack. These bills significantly expand the boundaries of legal self-defense by eliminating a person's duty to retreat from an invader or assailant in certain cases before resorting to the use of "defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another." <3>

In a Minnesota case, State v. Gardner (1905) where a man was acquitted for killing another man who attempted to kill him with a rifle, Judge Jaggard stated-

The doctrine of 'retreat to the wall' had its origin before the general introduction of guns. Justice demands that its application have due regard to the general use of and to the type of firearms. It would be good sense for the law to require, in many cases, an attempt to escape from a hand to hand encounter with fists, clubs, and even knives, as a justification for killing in self-defense; while it would be rank folly to require when experienced men, armed with repeating rifles, face each other in an open space, removed from shelter, with intent to kill or cause great bodily harm



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Doctrine

[azurnoir]

28. Me desperate no not quite

After a short conversation in broken English and Hebrew, which aroused the suspicion of the two, the 16-year-old young man decided to move away, behind a concrete barrier at the bus stop while the older man placed his hand on his personal weapon

At that point, the attacker suddenly pulled out a six-inch knife and tried to stab the adult Israeli. Because of his fear of getting entangled with the law for using his weapon, the would-be victim waited until the last second to draw his personal weapon. Hillel Maeir described that as the terrorist's knife was coming down toward the Jewish man, he managed to cock his pistol and shoot the terrorist all in the same motion of drawing his weapon."

Perhaps a bit too polite though, now did you read your the clip you posted? You have claimed the Palestinian guy was "coming at" the Israeli, that would indicate some distance. Now in the clip they were standing close together, what you failed to note was that the Israeli already had his hand on his gun when the Palestinian pulled the knife. Just who was defending themselves here? No the article does not say the Israeli had fully drawn his gun but his hand was on it, he managed to draw and cock it before the Arab could stab him at close range, was the Israeli's last name "McGraw"? As to the "investigation" the conclusion was as they say forgone.

And yes in the US most of the time when a gun is used on an assailant with a knife the shooter goes to jail, if only briefly while there is an investigation.

edited to cut down on space the post took up

[bemildred]

9. Hamas: Gaza sniper aimed for Public Security Min. Dichter

Hamas spokesman Abu Obeida announced Friday that sniper fire from Hamas' military wing, which wounded Public Security Minister Avi Dichter's bureau chief near Gaza, was in fact aimed at the minister himself.

Dichter's senior aide Mati Gil sustained moderate wounds in the attack, but the minister himself was not hurt. The military wing of Gaza's ruling Hamas movement claimed responsibility for the shooting shortly after the attack.

Several additional militant groups also claimed responsibility, including the militant offshoot of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah Party, and two little-known radical Islamic groups inspired by Al-Qaida, the Army of the Nation and Protectors of the Homeland. The gunfire erupted while Gil and Dichter were touring the Givat Nazmit observation point overlooking the Gaza Strip and adjacent to the security fence.

"We were touring with a few dozen people when we were fired at," said Dichter. "Regrettably, one man was wounded but we are all healthy and whole," he added. "Everyone reacted appropriately, like as if they were trained to handle shooting incidents. They hit the ground and grabbed cover. Simultaneously, fire was returned at the Palestinians," the minister elaborated.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/971823.html