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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 05:37 PM
Original message
Sixty years after Deir Yassin
Ronnie Kasrils, The Electronic Intifada, 8 April 2008

Ronnie Kasrils is South African Minister of Intelligence.

....When I became involved in our liberation struggle, I became aware of the similarities with the Palestinian cause in the dispossession of land and birthright by expansionist settler occupation. I came to see that the racial and colonial character of the two conflicts provided greater comparisons than with any other struggle. When Nelson Mandela stated that we know as South Africans "that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians," <1> he was not simply talking to our Muslim community, who can be expected to directly empathize, but to all South Africans precisely because of our experience of racial and colonial subjugation, and because we well understand the value of international solidarity.

When I came to learn of the fate that befell the Palestinians, I was shaken to the core and most particularly when I read eye-witness accounts of a massacre of Palestinian villagers that occurred a month before Israel's unilateral declaration of independence. This was at Deir Yassin, a quiet village just outside Jerusalem, which had the misfortune to lie by the road from Tel Aviv. On 9 April 1948, 254 men, women and children were butchered there by Zionist forces to secure the road. Because this was one of the few such episodes that received media attention in the West, the Zionist leadership did not deny it, but sought to label it an aberration by extremists. In fact, however, the atrocity was part of a broader plan designed by the Zionist High Command, led by Ben Gurion himself, which was aimed at the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from the British mandate territory and the seizure of as much land as possible for the intended Jewish state.

There are many accounts that corroborate the orgy of death at Deir Yassin, which went far beyond the Sharpville massacre of 1960 that motivated me to join the African National Congress. <2> My reaction was: if Sharpville had appalled me, could I be indifferent to the suffering at Deir Yassin?

Fahimi Zidan, a Palestinian child who survived by hiding under his parents' bodies, recalled: "The Jews ordered ... to line up against the wall ... started shooting ... all ... were killed: my father ... mother ... grandfather and grandmother ... uncles and aunts and some of their children ... Halim Eid saw a man shoot a bullet into the neck of my sister ... who was ... pregnant. Then he cut her stomach open with a butcher's knife ... In another house, Naaneh Khalil ... saw a man take a ... sword and slash my neighbor ..." <3>

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9445.shtml


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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Another sick holocaust comparison. This crap . .
. . constantly repeated turns my stomach.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
2. And the myth of the "massacre" continues . .
Edited on Wed Apr-09-08 06:14 PM by msmcghee
There are conflicting stories. My sense is that there is some truth to be found on both sides but for the most part, the Arab accounts sound much like Pallywood today. Here is one of the most complete accounts I have read that provides a context for the event and covers several viewpoints including some Arab accounts - for those who'd like to see the other side of it.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf14.html#f



MYTH

"The Palestinian Arabs had to flee to avoid being massacred as were the peaceful villagers in Deir Yassin."

FACT

The United Nations resolved that Jerusalem would be an international city apart from the Arab and Jewish states demarcated in the partition resolution. The 150,000 Jewish inhabitants were under constant military pressure; the 2,500 Jews living in the Old City were victims of an Arab blockade that lasted five months before they were forced to surrender on May 29, 1948. Prior to the surrender, and throughout the siege on Jerusalem, Jewish convoys tried to reach the city to alleviate the food shortage, which, by April, had become critical.

Meanwhile, the Arab forces, which had engaged in sporadic and unorganized ambushes since December 1947, began to make an organized attempt to cut off the highway linking Tel Aviv with Jerusalem — the city's only supply route. The Arabs controlled several strategic vantage points, which overlooked the highway and enabled them to fire on the convoys trying to reach the beleaguered city with supplies. Deir Yassin was situated on a hill, about 2,600 feet high, which commanded a wide view of the vicinity and was located less than a mile from the suburbs of Jerusalem. The population was 750.32

On April 6, Operation Nachshon was launched to open the road to Jerusalem. The village of Deir Yassin was included on the list of Arab villages to be occupied as part of the operation. The following day Haganah commander David Shaltiel wrote to the leaders of the Lehi and Irgun:

I learn that you plan an attack on Deir Yassin. I wish to point out that the capture of Deir Yassin and its holding are one stage in our general plan. I have no objection to your carrying out the operation provided you are able to hold the village. If you are unable to do so I warn you against blowing up the village which will result in its inhabitants abandoning it and its ruins and deserted houses being occupied by foreign forces....Furthermore, if foreign forces took over, this would upset our general plan for establishing an airfield.33

The Irgun decided to attack Deir Yassin on April 9, while the Haganah was still engaged in the battle for Kastel. This was the first major Irgun attack against the Arabs. Previously, the Irgun and Lehi had concentrated their attacks against the British.

According to Irgun leader Menachem Begin, the assault was carried out by 100 members of that organization; other authors say it was as many as 132 men from both groups. Begin stated that a small open truck fitted with a loudspeaker was driven to the entrance of the village before the attack and broadcast a warning to civilians to evacuate the area, which many did.34 Most writers say the warning was never issued because the truck with the loudspeaker rolled into a ditch before it could broadcast the warning.35 One of the fighters said, the ditch was filled in and the truck continued on to the village. "One of us called out on the loudspeaker in Arabic, telling the inhabitants to put down their weapons and flee. I don't know if they heard, and I know these appeals had no effect."36

Contrary to revisionist histories that the town was filled with peaceful innocents, residents and foreign troops opened fire on the attackers. One fighter described his experience:

My unit stormed and passed the first row of houses. I was among the first to enter the village. There were a few other guys with me, each encouraging the other to advance. At the top of the street I saw a man in khaki clothing running ahead. I thought he was one of ours. I ran after him and told him, "advance to that house." Suddenly he turned around, aimed his rifle and shot. He was an Iraqi soldier. I was hit in the foot.37

The battle was ferocious and took several hours. The Irgun suffered 41 casualties, including four dead.

Surprisingly, after the “massacre,” the Irgun escorted a representative of the Red Cross through the town and held a press conference. The New York Times' subsequent description of the battle was essentially the same as Begin's. The Times said more than 200 Arabs were killed, 40 captured and 70 women and children were released. No hint of a massacre appeared in the report.37a

“Paradoxically, the Jews say about 250 out of 400 village inhabitants , while Arab survivors say only 110 of 1,000.”38 A study by Bir Zeit University, based on discussions with each family from the village, arrived at a figure of 107 Arab civilians dead and 12 wounded, in addition to 13 "fighters," evidence that the number of dead was smaller than claimed and that the village did have troops based there.39 Other Arab sources have subsequently suggested the number may have been even lower.40

In fact, the attackers left open an escape corridor from the village and more than 200 residents left unharmed. For example, at 9:30 A.M., about five hours after the fighting started, the Lehi evacuated 40 old men, women and children on trucks and took them to a base in Sheikh Bader. Later, the Arabs were taken to East Jerusalem. Seeing the Arabs in the hands of Jews also helped raise the morale of the people of Jerusalem who were despondent from the setbacks in the fighting to that point.41 Another source says 70 women and children were taken away and turned over to the British.42 If the intent was to massacre the inhabitants, no one would have been evacuated.

After the remaining Arabs feigned surrender and then fired on the Jewish troops, some Jews killed Arab soldiers and civilians indiscriminately. None of the sources specify how many women and children were killed (the Times report said it was about half the victims; their original casualty figure came from the Irgun source), but there were some among the casualties.

At least some of the women who were killed became targets because of men who tried to disguise themselves as women. The Irgun commander reported, for example, that the attackers "found men dressed as women and therefore they began to shoot at women who did not hasten to go down to the place designated for gathering the prisoners."43 Another story was told by a member of the Haganah who overheard a group of Arabs from Deir Yassin who said "the Jews found out that Arab warriors had disguised themselves as women. The Jews searched the women too. One of the people being checked realized he had been caught, took out a pistol and shot the Jewish commander. His friends, crazed with anger, shot in all directions and killed the Arabs in the area."44

Contrary to claims from Arab propagandists at the time and some since, no evidence has ever been produced that any women were raped. On the contrary, every villager ever interviewed has denied these allegations. Like many of the claims, this was a deliberate propaganda ploy, but one that backfired. Hazam Nusseibi, who worked for the Palestine Broadcasting Service in 1948, admitted being told by Hussein Khalidi, a Palestinian Arab leader, to fabricate the atrocity claims. Abu Mahmud, a Deir Yassin resident in 1948 told Khalidi "there was no rape," but Khalidi replied, "We have to say this, so the Arab armies will come to liberate Palestine from the Jews." Nusseibeh told the BBC 50 years later, "This was our biggest mistake. We did not realize how our people would react. As soon as they heard that women had been raped at Deir Yassin, Palestinians fled in terror."45


The village after the attack

The Jewish Agency, upon learning of the attack, immediately expressed its “horror and disgust.” It also sent a letter expressing the Agency's shock and disapproval to Transjordan's King Abdullah.

The Arab Higher Committee hoped exaggerated reports about a “massacre” at Deir Yassin would shock the population of the Arab countries into bringing pressure on their governments to intervene in Palestine. Instead, the immediate impact was to stimulate a new Palestinian exodus.

Just four days after the reports from Deir Yassin were published, an Arab force ambushed a Jewish convoy on the way to Hadassah Hospital, killing 77 Jews, including doctors, nurses, patients, and the director of the hospital. Another 23 people were injured. This massacre attracted little attention and is never mentioned by those who are quick to bring up Deir Yassin. Moreover, despite attacks such as this against the Jewish community in Palestine, in which more than 500 Jews were killed in the first four months after the partition decision alone, Jews did not flee.

The Palestinians knew, despite their rhetoric to the contrary, the Jews were not trying to annihilate them; otherwise, they would not have been allowed to evacuate Tiberias, Haifa or any of the other towns captured by the Jews. Moreover, the Palestinians could find sanctuary in nearby states. The Jews, however, had no place to run had they wanted to. They were willing to fight to the death for their country. It came to that for many, because the Arabs were interested in annihilating the Jews, as Secretary-General of the Arab League Azzam Pasha made clear in an interview with the BBC on the eve of the war (May 15, 1948): “The Arabs intend to conduct a war of extermination and momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades.”

References to Deir Yassin have remained a staple of anti-Israel propaganda for decades because the incident was unique.



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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I find it amusing that you admit there are various versions but you think the jewishvirtuallibrary
is the source that got it right. Almost like an oxymoron in a way.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. The JVL has been up and available for long time . .
Edited on Wed Apr-09-08 06:58 PM by msmcghee
. . for anyone to examine and publish a criticism that shows anything in the library to be fabricated. As far as I know no reputable scholar has ever provided any evidence of such a fabrication. All we hear are claims - much like those here that Israel targets civilians and that Israel initiates the violence against Palestinians and is therefore acting as the "aggressor" in the conflict - but never any real logical arguments for those claims - sort of DU's private little Pallywood.

Basically the JVL here is quoting various sources (including Arabs) and footnoting those sources. I think this type of account is more credible than the quoted words of a child who says he saw the Jews cut open his pregnant sister's stomach after shooting her in the neck - and other outlandish stories.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Also, I never claimed it was the "right" account.
Edited on Wed Apr-09-08 06:38 PM by msmcghee
I said it was the other side of the story. I never expected you or some others here to believe it. I have read about a dozen accounts of this event - some from noted historians and scholars. From the facts that the majority of the most scholarly accounts have in common - I have developed a pretty good idea of what happened that day which is what I was after. I have no intention of arguing it with anyone here. Just wanted to offer the other side of the story for anyone lurking who was interested.
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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Other side? Like fair and balanced?
It is a credibility factor.

It is also a human factor.

Some appear to be lacking in both.

Shameful.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Credibility and humanity are important considerations in any conflict.
I invite you and anyone else to look back over each post in this thread and determine who here is discussing the ideas expressed in the op from various viewpoints - and who here is more interested in personal attacks. That's what's shameful.

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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Having read the link and having read many of the sources referred to in the account
Edited on Wed Apr-09-08 10:13 PM by Malikshah
What is shameful is to have someone refer to what occurred in Deir Yassin in quotes, labeling it a myth.

That is what is shameful and that is what should not be allowed to pass unanswered.

Shameful. Inhumane. Vile.

What is next? Revisiting Wounded Knee? The Trail of tears?
Pearl Harbor?

To discount the deaths and talk about two sides to the story is beyond the realm of decency.

I simply called someone out on it.

And will continue to do so.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. Interesting
The "rift" between the controversy over whether Deir Yassin happened or not coincides with the struggle between those who identify with the successors to ETZEL and those of the Haganah, not between Israel and the Arabs.

The rift is often portrayed by those identifying with ETZEL/LEHI as being an invention by the Haganah to discredit ETZEL during a moment of success; this invention of course being taken up by the media and Arabs at large.

Probably the best and most available source for this examination is Uri Milstein whose Vol IV of the "History of Israel's War of Independence" talks at length about the personal, first hand, observations of the immediate aftermath by not only the Haganah, but also the Red Cross (Dr.'s Reynier and Engel), several Jewish doctors from Jerusalem, and the commanders of the Jerusalem GADNA brigade who were to serve as the garrison force.

Dr. Engel's comment: "There were corpses in the houses, about 100 men, women, and children. It was awful. I didn't see any signs of mutilation or rape. Clearly, had gone house to house and shot people point-blank. In five years as a doctor with the German Army during World War I, I'd never seen such a ghastly sight." (p. 371)

There is also a fairly interesting commentary concerning the threat of force by GADNA personnel against ETZEL/LEHI men telling them that they wouldn't let them leave Deir Yassin unless they buried the dead. There also were some comparisons made by the burning of the bodies against the crematorium's of the Nazi's.



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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-09-08 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Obviously Deir Yassein happened. The question is . .
Edited on Thu Apr-10-08 12:10 AM by msmcghee
. . what exactly happened at Deir Yassein. A little over 100 Palestinians (and possibly some Arab fighters from other states) were killed by the Jewish forces. Not 254 as the OP claims. Forty or so Jews were killed.

There apparently were mutilations and rapes as the OP claims. Several accounts relate the emotional reaction of the Jewish forces at seeing their commander killed by a male in female disguise when he was discovered and a couple of other similar events during the several hours that the battle raged. I'm not claiming that killing civilians with no defensive purpose is ever excusable - but the Irgun force was poorly organized and poorly trained. Comparing an inexperienced bunch like that with the Nazis who had highly trained and disciplined forces who were ordered by their command to line up civilians and execute them as collective punishment for resistance operations is not anything like what seems to have happened at Deir Yassein. Some civilians were lined up and shot but it seems like it was a haphazard event and seems more the result of unrestrained emotions and poor leadership than any plan.

This was a battle for a strategic strong-point for the survival of the thousands of Jews trapped in Jerusalem. It was a battle where too many civilians were killed. Not so much because the Irgun went in intending to kill civilians but more because they had poor discipline and many things went wrong including loss of some of the Jewish officers who might have kept better control of the situation.

For whatever reasons many Palestinians did not surrender at Deir Yassein and some did so falsely. Most of the houses seem to have held weapons that were being fired at the Irgun - armed resistance. That seems to have caused the poorly trained Jewish fighters (terrorists actually by training) to resort to throwing grenades into houses, dynamiting houses and spraying fire through windows and doors. Still, many Palestinians did surrender and/or escaped. Only about a hundred Palestinians or a little more than that were killed from a village of at least several hundred.

The account you reference seems like a good one. It is always a tragedy when innocent civilians are killed in war. When it happens it is not always because killing civilians was the intention - although sometimes it is. I believe that at various points during the battle, Irgun members adopted the intent to kill civilians with no defensive purpose and carried that out. That was immoral. I don't think the attack was organized with that intention. It was more a clusterfuck - than a massacre - although the effect on part of the population at least was the same. There probably were civilians intentionally executed there for no defensive purpose.

Added on edit: I just went and checked my copy of "O Jerusalem" which has a vivid account of the battle. According to that account there were executions and now I believe it was probably more of a massacre than I stated earlier. OTOH "O Jerusalem" was written in 1972 and much research has been done since then. It's likely some of the claims in the OP - which seem to match the earlier accounts - might have been refuted with better evidence. At least that's my take on it thus far. I'm always ready to learn more and change my mind if that's warranted - like I just did. (If anyone is planning to respond to this post please re-read it as I have edited it pretty heavily in the last few minutes.)
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. Except that...
There apparently were mutilations and rapes as the OP claims. Several accounts relate the emotional reaction of the Jewish forces at seeing their commander killed by a male in female disguise when he was discovered and a couple of other similar events during the several hours that the battle raged. I'm not claiming that killing civilians with no defensive purpose is ever excusable - but the Irgun force was poorly organized and poorly trained. Comparing an inexperienced bunch like that with the Nazis who had highly trained and disciplined forces who were ordered by their command to line up civilians and execute them as collective punishment for resistance operations is not anything like what seems to have happened at Deir Yassein. Some civilians were lined up and shot but it seems like it was a haphazard event and seems more the result of unrestrained emotions and poor leadership than any plan.


The Palmach considered the Irgun soldiers louts who had actively disengaged themselves from the defense of Jerusalem. The attack itself was a punitive expedition. Prior to the attack, members of the Irgun were calling for the death of women and children. Several members of SHAI had to work to try and convince they should follow the Geneva Convention.

Also stating that the lack of training by the Irgun somehow disqualifies them from intent is analogous to statements that rockets from Gaza somehow don't count because they lack sophisticated guidance systems.

Most of those who were killed were in the actual attack, only a few were killed post-occupation. It was the surviving women and children reported the rapes. Mutilations seemed to be of a disfiguring type and were of a cruel nature (removal of earrings, etc.). The account of the savage attack on the pregnant woman seems validated by three different accounts including two people who saw the body afterwards. Also, post attack, several groups of survivors were trucked as trophies through the streets of Jerusalem with a report that 8 of these men were later executed.

This was a battle for a strategic strong-point for the survival of the thousands of Jews trapped in Jerusalem. It was a battle where too many civilians were killed. Not so much because the Irgun went in intending to kill civilians but more because they had poor discipline and many things went wrong including loss of some of the Jewish officers who might have kept better control of the situation.


The Irgun made no plans to occupy the village after the attack which means they were not thinking of Deir Yassin strategically. The attack itself was planned purely as a punitive raid from the beginning. The troops from the GADNA detachment which served as occupation was only sent after it was learned the Irgun had taken the town and it was feared that the uproar the Irgun had caused would inflame the region.

The battle was with the village itself with only a handful of outsiders playing a part. The villagers themselves had enjoined a treaty with the nearby Jewish settlement and under some intense lobbying by powerful Arab groups managed to keep both the Arab Legion and the Relief Army from militarizing the village. While there had been some attacks from the nearby region, the village itself had remained on friendly terms. This had been confirmed by SHAI members who had scouted the village in the period just before the attack.

Also, the members of the Haganah had extensively lobbied the Irgun to join in the nearby battle of Kastel as they felt the villagers of Deir Yassin posed no threat.

For whatever reasons many Palestinians did not surrender at Deir Yassein and some did so falsely. Most of the houses seem to have held weapons that were being fired at the Irgun - armed resistance. That seems to have caused the poorly trained Jewish fighters (terrorists actually by training) to resort to throwing grenades into houses, dynamiting houses and spraying fire through windows and doors. Still, many Palestinians did surrender and/or escaped. Only about a hundred Palestinians or a little more than that were killed from a village of at least several hundred.


The use of grenades was, per Milstein, premeditated knowing they would be used against unarmed civilians.

The account you reference seems like a good one. It is always a tragedy when innocent civilians are killed in war. When it happens it is not always because killing civilians was the intention - although sometimes it is. I believe that at various points during the battle, Irgun members adopted the intent to kill civilians with no defensive purpose and carried that out. That was immoral. I don't think the attack was organized with that intention. It was more a clusterfuck - than a massacre - although the effect on part of the population at least was the same. There probably were civilians intentionally executed there for no defensive purpose.

Added on edit: I just went and checked my copy of "O Jerusalem" which has a vivid account of the battle. According to that account there were executions and now I believe it was probably more of a massacre than I stated earlier. OTOH "O Jerusalem" was written in 1972 and much research has been done since then. It's likely some of the claims in the OP - which seem to match the earlier accounts - might have been refuted with better evidence. At least that's my take on it thus far. I'm always ready to learn more and change my mind if that's warranted - like I just did. (If anyone is planning to respond to this post please re-read it as I have edited it pretty heavily in the last few minutes.)


Back to your earlier point about the number of deaths. Given that almost all of the deaths were villagers and numbered around 120 (Milstein's number) and that the size of the village totalled no more than 500 people, the number of deaths were a large proportion of the total population. Given the premeditated nature and the fact that the town was not militarized, this has to be considered nothing but a massacre. The fact that the Irgun suffered so many casualties had more to do with their lack of training and the extraordinary defense of their homes by the villagers than anything else. The larger casualty figures were first the result of the inability of those afterwards to describe the scope of it and then later again amplified by ETZEL operatives who saw the effect it had on the Arab population and tried to use it as a propaganda tool as an attempt to demoralize them further.

Also, this type of event was not limited to just Deir Yassin. Of course there were a pair of massacres at Gush Etzion; several incidences in Haifa including the Oil Refinery massacre and another involving the use of 3" mortars deliberately targeted on a large Arab marketplace crowd; the slaughter of 77 Jewish medical personnel following Deir Yassin; the Beit Nabala bombing; Balad al-Shaykh which was a retaliation for the Haifa massacre; etc.


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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 06:36 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. I started out in this thread thinking I had a pretty good understanding of this event . .
. . gleaned from some accounts I found on the internet when this came up a few months ago. From this exchange I'd say there is much to be desired in what I thought I knew. I've accepted my ignorance on this event and am taking another, more serious look at it. The version you offer and surrounding context could well be the correct one. I have ordered Milstein's Volume IV from my library as they don't have it in inventory but can get it for me on loan.

You quoted from that book pretty quickly which makes me think you have it. Do you have the full set? Do you consider Milstein one of the best sources on this? I notice Vol IV was published in 1999. Amazon has a copy of Vol IV, used, for $250. What other references on Israel's early history do you use a lot if I could ask?
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Yes
I have the full series from Milstein. Milstein is one of the leading historians for this time period and this series represents the most comprehensive examination of military events for the period up through declaration of Independence. While it does include some political pieces, it only does so as it relates to military events. There is some comparison between this work and the Official US Army Histories of WWII or Samuel Morrison's Naval History of WWII.

L-
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
12. Edward Said on the American propensity to minimize and deny
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6852.htm

09/27/2000 "AL-AHRAM" -- This is the first article in a series on the misunderstood and misjudged role of American Zionism in the question of Palestine. In my opinion, the role of organised Zionist groups and activities in the United States has not been sufficiently addressed during the period of the "peace process," a neglect that I find absolutely astonishing, given that Palestinian policy has been essentially to throw our fate as a people in the lap of the United States without any strategic awareness of how US policy is in effect dominated, if not completely controlled, by a small minority of people whose views about Middle East peace are in some way more extreme than even those of the Israeli Likud.

Let me give a small example. A month ago, the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz sent over a leading columnist of theirs, Ari Shavit, to spend several days talking with me; a good summary of this long conversation appeared as a question-and-answer interview in the August 18 issue of the newspaper's supplement, basically uncut and uncensored. I voiced my views very candidly, with a major emphasis on right of return, the events of 1948, and Israel's responsibility for all this. I was surprised that my views were presented just as I voiced them, without the slightest editorialising by Shavit, whose questions were always courteous and un-confrontational.

A week after the interview there was a response to it by Meron Benvenisti, ex-deputy mayor of Jerusalem under Teddy Kollek. It was disgustingly personal, full of insults and slander against me and my family. But he never denied that there was a Palestinian people, or that we were driven out in 1948. In fact he said, we conquered them, and why should we feel guilty? I responded to Benvenisti a week later in Ha'aretz: What I wrote was also published uncut. I reminded Israeli readers that Benvenisti was responsible for the destruction (and probably knew about the killing of several Palestinians) of Haret Al-Magharibah in 1967, in which several hundred Palestinians lost their homes to Israeli bulldozers. But I did not have to remind Benvenisti or Ha'aretz readers that as a people we existed and could at least debate our right of return. That was taken for granted.

Two points here. One is that the whole interview could not have appeared in any American paper, and certainly not in any Jewish-American journal. And if there had been an interview the questions to me would have been adversarial, hectoring, insulting, such as, why have you been involved in terrorism, why will you not recognise Israel, why was Hajj Amin a Nazi, and so on. Second, a right-wing Israeli Zionist like Benvenisti, no matter how much he may detest me or my views, would not deny that there is a Palestinian people which was forced to leave in 1948. An American Zionist for a long time would say that no conquest took place or, as Joan Peters alleged in a now-disappeared and all but forgotten 1984 book, From Time Immemorial (that won all the Jewish awards when it appeared here), there were no Palestinians with a life in Palestine before 1948.

Every Israeli will readily admit and knows perfectly well that all of Israel was once Palestine, that (as Moshe Dayan said openly in 1976) every Israeli town or village once had an Arab name. And Benvenisti says openly that "we" conquered, and so what? Why should we feel guilty about winning? American Zionist discourse is never straight out honest that way: it must always go round and talk about making the desert bloom, and Israeli democracy, etc., completely avoiding the essential facts about 1948, which every Israeli has actually lived. For the American, these are mostly fantasies, or myths, not realities. So removed from the actualities are American supporters of Israel, so caught in the contradictions of diasporic guilt (after all what does it mean to be a Zionist and not emigrate to Israel?) and triumphalism as the most successful and most powerful minority in the US, that what emerges is very often a frightening mixture of vicarious violence against Arabs and a deep fear and hatred of them, which is the result, unlike Israeli Jews, of not having any sustained direct contact with them.

For the American Zionist, therefore, Arabs are not real beings, but fantasies of nearly everything that can be demonised and despised, terrorism and anti-Semitism most specially...

Lots more...
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Well, but most US public discourse is the same way.
The US is the single most successful colonial enterprise in the history of the species, with a horrendous record of genocide, slavery, economic repression, class warfare, ecologic destruction, and aggressive wars of conquest. But to read in the public discourse here you would think we are a beacon of human rights, fair dealing, and democratic politics. If you say anything less in public politics while appearing to have a chance at gaining real power, you have a fair chance of being shot. This dishonesty permeates our public discourse on every level: sexuality, drugs and medical care, taxation, economic policy, public services, you name it. The handling of Middle Eastern foreign affairs is only a small part of it.
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Edward Said is long dead
and this was written before Hamas took over Gaza, murdering Fatah members by throwing them off buildings, before they endorsed or carried out daily rocket fire on the people of southern Israel, before the terrorist government of Hamas put killing Israelis over their own humanitarian needs (why else would they blow up their own fuel supply or their own aid trucks?).

The landscape has changed for the Palestinans, since Said wrote this article, and the change is for the worse. Life in 2000 was a lot better for them than it is in 2008. They ought to look at the facts on the ground.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Mr Said died in September 2003. nt
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. What does any of that have to do with Israeli vs. American interpretaion of the facts
of 1948?
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Mr. Said's commentary from the year 2000 is no longer current
about what is happening in Israel and the Palestinian territories. Post something current if you want to discuss Israeli and American interpretations.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. So this has changed?
For the American Zionist, therefore, Arabs are not real beings, but fantasies of nearly everything that can be demonised and despised, terrorism and anti-Semitism most specially...

How is it out of date?
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Better to be a fantasy . .
Edited on Thu Apr-10-08 01:39 PM by msmcghee
. . than the sons of pigs and dogs to be exterminated . . as Jews are often described by Palestinain Hamas leaders and imams.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. PS I am very fond of Mr Said.
A brilliant man.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. An intellectual and moral giant. He is sorely missed. nt
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #12
36. "triumphalism as the most successful and most powerful minority in the US"
Is that a reference to Irish-American men or are they now the majority of the US population?
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
22. Identity Card




Record!

I am an Arab
And my identity card is number fifty thousand
I have eight children
And the ninth is coming after a summer
Will you be angry?

Record!
I am an Arab
Employed with fellow workers at a quarry
I have eight children
I get them bread
Garments and books
from the rocks..
I do not supplicate charity at your doors
Nor do I belittle myself at the footsteps of your chamber
So will you be angry?

Record!
I am an Arab
I have a name without a title
Patient in a country

Where people are enraged
My roots
Were entrenched before the birth of time
And before the opening of the eras
Before the pines, and the olive trees
And before the grass grew
My father.. descends from the family of the plow
Not from a privileged class
And my grandfather..was a farmer
Neither well-bred, nor well-born!
Teaches me the pride of the sun
Before teaching me how to read
And my house is like a watchman's hut
Made of branches and cane
Are you satisfied with my status?
I have a name without a title!

Record!
I am an Arab
You have stolen the orchards of my ancestors
And the land which I cultivated
Along with my children
And you left nothing for us
Except for these rocks..
So will the State take them
As it has been said?!
Therefore!

Record on the top of the first page:
I do not hate people
Nor do I encroach
But if I become hungry
The usurper's flesh will be my food
Beware..
Beware..
Of my hunger

And my anger!

by Mahmoud Darwish, 1964

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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. So much anger
instead of getting on with their lives they live with anger. Is this preferable to having a happy life?
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-10-08 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. That could be said for a lot of people
With no limitation to ethnicity, religion, or involvement with the I/P theatre.

L-
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Very true
But the Arab anger card seems to run deeper than that of other peoples, and it doesn't always have to do with imperialism, colonialism, or any other "ism" that people use to excuse anger and violence, since much of that anger and violence is directed towards each other.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. I think you confuse
Volume with depth. I don't see their hate as being disproportional with any other population group. However, the total Arab population is fairly large. 5% of 12 million is 600K, 5% of 120 million is 6 million (numbers picked for apx. scale purposes only). Seems louder, but it's really no difference when normalized against the total population.

L-
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. I think you both conflate "hate" (is there a more meaningless word in the
political lexicon today??) and (righteous and deserved) anger.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. hate is hate
It's a negative energy no matter how you couch it. Given the situation, neither side is right and neither side deserves any sense of moral supremacy.


L-
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. Even Darwish makes the distinction in him poem.
Negative Energy? Lol, Lithos, you better quit watching Oprah!
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. Dalai Lama
n/t
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. We'll see how that works out for Tibet.
When your enemy doesn't play by the rules of civilized world, carrying on multi-generation occupation, all bets are off.
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-11-08 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Hate is not a meaningless word
when Hamas professes its goal, it is hateful. It is hate, exactly as defined in any dictionary.

This hate and the anger are negative emotions that prevent the Palestinians from moving on and making better, more positive lives for themselves.

Sixty years of hate has brought them nothing but greater and greater misery. Maybe it is time to let go of some of this anger and hate, in favor of trying to have happier lives.
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
35. Some questions for anyone who thinks that the article was worth posting.
....When I became involved in our liberation struggle, I became aware of the similarities with the Palestinian cause in the dispossession of land and birthright by expansionist settler occupation. I came to see that the racial and colonial character of the two conflicts provided greater comparisons than with any other struggle. When Nelson Mandela stated that we know as South Africans "that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians,"...

What is South Africa's policy regarding immigration of people from Palestine? What is South Africa's policy regarding immigration of people who face persecution and believe that they have few options other than going to Israel? Is South Africa in fact an option for them that they might not be aware of or is it not an option?

When I came to learn of the fate that befell the Palestinians, I was shaken to the core and most particularly when I read eye-witness accounts of a massacre of Palestinian villagers that occurred a month before Israel's unilateral declaration of independence.

Are there some good examples of multilateral declarations of independence by new countries?
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-12-08 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. Kosovo
Most of the former Yugoslav memberstates. Slovakia. Eritrea. Most of Africa during the period of decolonization. The Philippines. Solomon Islands.
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