Israel's UN ambassador calls Jimmy Carter 'a bigot'

[azurnoir]

NEW YORK, April 24 (Reuters) - Israel's U.N. Ambassador Dan Gillerman said on Thursday that former U.S. President Jimmy Carter was a "bigot" for meeting in Syria with the leader of the Palestinian militant group Hamas.
Speaking to reporters at a gathering in New York organized by The Israel Project, Gillerman said that he was saddened by the meeting and that in his mind Carter had become "what I believe to be a bigot" for having the meeting.

Carter "went to the region with soiled hands and came back with bloody hands," he said.
The Carter Center in Atlanta was not available for a comment.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N24481315.htm

Talking = bigotry?

[DJ13]

1. Talking = bigotry?

Not cowtowing to the Likud = bigotry.

[henank]

3. Again with the Likud??!!!

WTH? HOW many times must we remind you all that the Likud IS NOT IN POWER in Israel? (Please excuse my caps but I've seen this statement so many times it is totally ridiculous).

Please get it into your heads: Likud does not equal Israeli government. Likud is not in power. Rinse and repeat at least 3 times. Likud are in the opposition. Kadima are in power with a coalition together with Labour, one religious party (Shas) and some other small single-issue parties.

Whatever one feels about Mr. Gillerman's statement, it has nothing at all to do with the Likud.

[subsuelo]

5. Somehow "Likud" has become synonymous with "right-wing moron"

That's my understanding of it

[Malikshah]

7. Who created Kadima? There's your answer.

Rinse and repeat. Kadima by any other name is no better.

[henank]

8. So what? Sharon is long out of the picture. Kadima's policies are not Likud

With all the Labourites in Kadima and with the policies it has been promoting, it is about as far as possible as it can be away from Likud.

All of which is irrelevant. Any time any Israeli official does or says something that many posters here disapprove of, the usual complaint and adjective used is "Likud". Which as I said is a load of rubbish because Likud is not in power.

[Malikshah]

16. IMO Kadima is equivalent to the current Dem Leadership (and candidates) in the US

as Likud is to the Republicans

How much influence do Repubs have in Congress right now?

Thus, how much influence does Likud have.

It's not a matter of who's in power necessarily-- even moreso in Israel with their pluralist political system.

[LeftishBrit]

12. People from Likud AND Labour

I don't care for Kadima (would vote for Meretz if I were Israeli); but Kadima are not as bad as Likud, especially under Netanyahu.

[Shaktimaan]

4. Why Likud specifically? np

[ananda]

2. This is so nuts..

.. it boggles the mind.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

6. A man from a country with separate roads for untermenschen calls Carter a bigot?

That's rich!

Left is right
Up is down
Wrong is right

Welcome to 2008!

[oberliner]

10. Why would you choose to use a term coined by the Nazis?

Did you deliberately choose the word "untermenschen" in an attempt to draw a parallel between Israel and Nazi Germany?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

11. Quoting Jerry Haber, the "Magnes Zionist." So many here object to the apartheid designation....

[oberliner]

14. I'd respectfully suggest that comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is unhelpful

[Behind the Aegis]

15. It also violates DU I/P rules. n/t

[ProgressiveMuslim]

17. It's so interesting.

FWIW, when I read Haber's piece, I simply translated the words and found them very descriptive. I didn't make the "nazi" connection.

We can't say "apartheid" because that is hurtful to Israel. We can't use German words, because they force one to compare conditions to another great injustice of the last century.

But you know what Oberliner? Bottom line: those license plates on WB cars might as well be yellow stars. They serve the same function.

I wish there were as much concern for the actual acts of discrimination and injustice as there is for the critical language we use to describe them.

I respectually suggest that what's wrong isn't that I used the word "untermenschen." What's wrong is "No Palestinians allowed" roads. What's wrong is a person from the gov't of the country that implements that institutional apartheid calling Jimmy Carter a bigot.

I won't use the term again, (even though I quote an Israeli cutlural zionist!).

[oberliner]

18. They can both be wrong

Having roads in the West Bank that are for Israelis only and comparing the Israeli government to Nazi Germany can both be wrong.

There is a difference between using "German words" and taking a term that was specifically used by Nazis to describe Jews and applying it to the way Israelis are treating Palestinians. I find it hard to believe that a person would find this particular analogy as the most apt way to describe that relationship between Israelis and Palestinians in the West Bank. There have been endless examples throughout history of occupied territories, of one population treating another as second class citizens or worse. I do not feel that a careful (or even rudimentary) examination of the situation in the Occupied Territories would reveal a situation that is so similar to the relationship between Nazi Germany and its Jewish population to render such a comparison as helpful or instructive in any way.

Additionally, I think it is fair to argue that comparing Israel with Nazi Germany could be seen as having potentially unsavory undertones. The board guidelines do specifically indicate that such comparisons ought not to be made.

Clearly, we disagree about a lot (I do not think the license plates on WB cars might as well be yellow stars, for instance), however, there is also a great deal we probably agree on. (I believe that the entire settlement operation in the West Bank should be dismantled, for instance)

We can all find people on the "other side" to quote. Just because someone claiming that they are a Zionist said something, does not mean that their statement isn't offensive to Zionists, Jews, or Israelis. Similarly, someone claiming to be an Arab or a Palestinian or a Muslim is capable of making a statement that would be offensive to many among those groups.

I would encourage you (and everyone posting here) to work towards expanding the common ground that exists among us rather than using language that is alienating or antagonistic towards people who might otherwise be eagerly receptive to different ideas, perspectives, and, most importantly, suggested actions that could lead us finally to a peaceful end to this conflict.

[Vegasaurus]

19. The quickest conversation stopper is to compare Israelis

to Nazis, to compare Gaza to a concentration camps, to say Israel is practicing apartheid.

There is simply no possibility for discussion if these kinds of idiotic, hyperbolic comparisons are made.

[subsuelo]

20. Just one problem, though -

Israel is practicing apartheid.

[Vegasaurus]

21. There goes the conversation. nt

[subsuelo]

27. Sorry to be against apartheid racism nt

[Violet_Crumble]

22. Don't you think comparing Arabs to Nazis is similar?

I find it interesting to encounter folk who get up in arms when a term specifically used by the Nazis comes up to describe what Israel is doing in the West Bank, but who themselves have used terminology specifically used by the Nazis to describe what Arabs have or might do to Israelis. An example is 'Judenrein'. I won't link to specific posts lest my post get deleted, but it's a bit of an eye-opener to do a search here on 'Judenrein' and see how often it's been used and who by...

btw, Israel is practicising an apartheid-style system in the West Bank. There's nothing of an idiotic or hyperbolic nature in pointing that out...

[notfullofit]

25. When it comes to the Nazis,

there is NO comparison period.

OTOH Stalinist Russia.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

26. And I would encourage you to take a hard look at the actions of the Israeli gov't

and realize that "being nice" isn't going to change anything. My reaching out to you achieves nothing. There are plenty of people of goodwill on both sides. Unfortunately, that does nothing to change the course of the gov't of Israel.

Oberliner, my goal isn't to upset you. After watching this for 25 years as an adult, I have come to believe that the only way to end the occupation is to make it too painful for the gov't of Israel to continue its evil course.

The problem isn't extremists who must be countered. The problem is the gov't of Israel, which would rather deal with the devil of the settler bloc and the military than do the right thing.

Only by subjecting Israel to painful economic, diplomatic, cultural and academic boycotts will enough Israelis be forced to re-think the wisdom of keeping millions of Palestinians in chains.

If we were all good and polite for the next 10 years, I doubt it would made any substantive dent on the situation.

For what it's worth, I do believe that Israel's tyranny has many parallels to Nazi behavior in the 30s. I can understand how that would upset you, but I think it's true nonetheless. I've seen it with my own 2 eyes. I'm not saying that Israel's occupation and siege are of the same magnitude as the Nazi extermination of European Jewry. But I do believe the gov't of Israel is absolutely engaged in an evil enterprise.

[oberliner]

28. We can still be polite and nice to each other on this message board

One of the great things about discussing these issues on a board like this one is that there are some guidelines in place to help ensure that the discussions are polite and the disagreements are civil. The guidelines for this forum include an admonition against comparing Middle East regional leaders and parties to Hitler or the Nazis. It doesn't upset me that you believe "Israel's tyranny has many parallels to Nazi behavior in the 30s". I merely suggest to you that drawing such comparisons will (in my opinion) repel many progressives who would be otherwise receptive to much of what you have to say. If this does not concern you (or you disagree with that conclusion), so be it, but I would encourage you to respect the forum guidelines.

[Vegasaurus]

29. It's the reason that many Jewish progressives have turned away from the

anti-war movement, because behind it is a very ugly underbelly of anti-semitism.

Israel is not the Nazis. Six million Jews died in the Holocaust.

It is regretable that 10,000 Palestinians have died at the hands of Israelis in the past sixty years.

But 10,000 is not Six Million.

People equating the Israelis to the Nazis is disgusting.

[Violet_Crumble]

33. Do you think it's okay to compare Arabs to Nazis?

You didn't answer my question to you before, so I'll try again.

[Vegasaurus]

35. No, and I have never once made such a comparison

the comparisons are made between Israel and Nazis constantly, but not in reverse.

I don't think it is okay to compare either side to the Nazis, although I am deeply troubled by constant calls for the destruction of Israel by Hamas and Iran, as well as the Hezbollah nutter's stated desire to rid the world of Jews, not just Israelis, but all Jews.


“If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.” – Hezbollah’s Secretary General Hassan Nasrallah,

[Violet_Crumble]

40. But you've used the Nazi term 'judenrein' more than once...

So how is it that you think that others using Nazi terms is comparing Israel to the Nazis, but you using Nazi terminology isn't comparing Arabs to the Nazis?

[bemildred]

48. Nasty langauge is great, but only when it's used by the right people. nt

[notfullofit]

49. And that says it all

“If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.” – Hezbollah’s Secretary General Hassan Nasrallah."

Any hope for peace with these kind of people is nothing but a pipedream.

[msmcghee]

36. And non-Jewish progressives. n/t

[ProgressiveMuslim]

31. I used Haber's word

because I think "under people" is a perfect description of the role that Israeli's gov't has created for the peopel of Palestine.

My intent was not to equate Israel with the Nazi regime. They are not. They implement apartheid policies. They have created an evil institution. They have murdered, jailed and stolen from thousands, but they are not Nazis.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

32. That's a really repulsive and hateful post...

Anyone with a shred of knowledge of the conflict would know that 'millions of Palestinians' do not want to kill Israelis. That's just as hateful as someone saying millions of Israelis wanted to kill Palestinians. Instead of making broadbrush generalisations about an entire group of people (which I thought was against the rules here), why don't you move beyond crap like Fauxnews to get yr 'facts'? Try reading one or two books about the Palestinian people, try talking to Palestinians, and if you have any shred of empathy buried in there, try putting yrself in the shoes of a Palestinian...

[ProgressiveMuslim]

34. You are truly a small-minded, one-note ignoramous. nt

[LeftishBrit]

37. I agree with you...

I think that there is a lot of common ground among a lot of people on the board, and elsewhere; and that if we can start from that common ground, then discussing the areas of disagreement can become much more focussed and constructive. I think that there needs to be more emphasis on how to achieve a lasting peace, and a bit less on whose fault it is that this hasn't been achieved already (probably everyone's.)

[Vegasaurus]

38. I think there is a lot of disagreement, actually

even about the most basic elements of this conflict.

Some of what I read around here is shocking.

I am sure it goes both ways.

It makes common ground difficult, to say the least.

[LeftishBrit]

42. I think that at least on this board...

there is much more disagreement on the origins of the conflict (who did what first) than on what the solutions should be. There are disagreements over the latter as well; but I think most people here want some sort of two-state solution, even if they don't agree on the details. Perhaps it would be more constructive if there were more focus here on how to achieve such a solution than on who is to blame for the existing mess - though I've often gotten involved in the latter topic!

[Violet_Crumble]

43. Most people in this forum do find some common ground...

I can safely say after seeing the nasty comment of yrs about the Palestinian people in this thread, that I have zero interest in finding common ground with you and others who hold such simplistic, one-dimensional views, and rather hateful views when it comes to the conflict. I have no time for anyone who holds such views of either Palestinians or Israelis. Having said that, the majority of regulars here don't engage in that sort of thing, and it's those of them who I find myself disagreeing with more often than not that I can find some common ground with, knowing that unlike the knuckle-draggers who think that a legitimate form of argument to support their 'side' is to demonise the other, there is an interest in finding a peaceful and fair resolution to the conflict...

[notfullofit]

45. I reckon there's

three sides to every situation, your side, my side and the right side.
Problem is, nobody seems to know just what the right side is.

[bemildred]

9. Well, that's very grown up. nt

[LeftishBrit]

13. Not a very diplomatic remark from someone whose job is diplomacy.

[Violet_Crumble]

23. It's New Diplomacy....

That old diplomacy was kind of boring and wimpy, and I think Hillary Clinton has taken the lead in redefining diplomacy with her threat to obliterate Iran if it were to attack Israel. Mr Gillerman's just following the lead, though he's got a long way to go to reach the pinnacle of Hillary's diplomacy and tact...

[bemildred]

24. Maybe it was the Crown Royal. nt

[oberliner]

39. Looks like he is out shortly

A Livni aide said that the foreign minister does not normally communicate with Israeli ambassadors through the media.

However, a Foreign Ministry source said that Gillerman is due to leave his post in the coming months, following five years at the UN.

The same source said that Gillerman's attack on Carter "surprised and embarrassed" Jerusalem, which contravened direct instructions from Livni to avoid comments on the former president.

Even though Israel's political leadership expressed its reservations at Carter's intention to meet with the Hamas leaders, the Foreign Ministry contributed to coordinating his meetings and emphasized that no decision was taken to boycott him.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/978126.html

[LeftishBrit]

41. This makes sense...

It did sound as though the ambassador was being a total idiot. Whatever the Israeli government think of Carter's initiative, it's unlikely that they'd see any advantage in verbally abusing an American ex-president on an official level. Sounds like this ambassador was a bad choice, and not up to the job.

[Violet_Crumble]

44. It doesn't look like it's got anything to do with his stupid outburst...

He's done a five year stint and it's coming to an end in a few months. His outburst hasn't sped that up at all. When ambassadors put their footsies in their mouths and highly embarress their govt, they tend to get pulled back home so quick their feet don't touch the ground, as was the case of the Israeli ambassador to Australia who introduced himself by informing his audience that Israel and Australia were united in a fight against those swarthy Asian types...

So it looks like Gillerman will get a rap over the knuckles for pissing off the US, which is fair enough as without outbursts like his, the world would be a very unentertaining place....

[oberliner]

46. I wonder if Lybia will pull their deputy UN ambassador for his comments from 2 days ago

Libya says Gaza is 'worse' than Nazi concentration camps

Libya's deputy ambassador to the United Nations confirmed Thursday that he compared the situation in Gaza to Nazi concentration camps, but toughened his language and said matters are actually "worse" in Gaza.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gas24zdOxdQcBQRTEuKAHPpObsPgD908ELI02

I also wonder if Syria will pull their UN ambassador for his comments in response to those comments:

Syria's U.N. Ambassador Bashar Ja'afari, who is not a Security Council member, told reporters after Wednesday's meeting that he agreed with Libya's characterization.

"We have many times compared this situation ... in the occupied Palestinian territories to the situation in Europe during World War II," he said. "Unfortunately, those who complain of being victims of some kind of genocide are repeating the same kind of genocide against the Palestinians."

(from the same article cited above)

Granted, neither of these countries have relations with Israel so the situation is not analogous, but, still, diplomacy and tactfulness do not seem to be the hallmark of many of the world's UN personnel.

In any case, Gillerman may have felt emboldened to make his comment knowing he had only a few months on the job. Or he may have made similar comments throughout his tenure (I haven't really monitored him too closely). In either case, Israel would be wise to choose its next UN ambassador carefully.

[Vegasaurus]

47. Crazy

Why doesn't the deputy ambassador look at the conditions all over Africa, including the current genocide occurring in Darfur, after the decades long civil war in all of Sudan?

Does he think the slaughter of a half million people, and displacement of over two million, is better than the situation in Gaza?

He can look at the recent history Rwanda and his own country, to find situations a hundred times worse than Gaza.

Any commentary comparing Gaza to a Nazi concentration camp just makes the speaker sound like a crazy nutter.