A Reality Check as Israel Turns 60

[Vegasaurus]

A Reality Check as Israel Turns 60
By Fouad Ajami
Posted May 7, 2008


The Arab imagination could never reconcile itself to the permanence of the Jewish state. No victories could secure this state the acceptance of its neighbors. It was a fluke of history, they believed, and history itself provided the means of evasion, a way of stubbornly refusing to accept the verdict of what happened in 1948. Modern-day Arabs took to the history of the Crusader Kingdom that had risen in the Levant, lasted for two centuries (1099- 1291), then pulled up stakes and left on the soil its castles and bridges and ruins. This, too, shall pass, it was believed, and the weight of demography and the brutal geographical facts shall prevail.

In its short history, Israel has held up a mirror for the Arabs, who have not liked what they have seen. In the first Arab-Israeli war, in 1948, the paramilitary and volunteers of the new state turned back Arab armies. Although outgunned and outnumbered, the Jews prevailed. There was the embarrassment of the numbers. The population of the new state was a mere 650,000, while that of the surrounding Arab states was approximately 40 million. No Arabs had been prepared for what had unfolded: The war was thought to be a routine endeavor, the defeat of the Jewish state preordained. There were men of public affairs in these Arab states who knew better, but they hadn't had the courage to tell the truth to the unsuspecting crowd.

-snip

Arab perfidy. In their utterances, the Arabs were bound by a code of brotherhood, and the "restoration" of Palestinian rights was the creed of their political world. But in the mirror, Arabs could see their fratricide, the chasm between what they said and what they did. The rulers who professed fidelity to Palestine helped themselves to the fragments of Palestine unclaimed by the Zionists. The Arabs who bemoaned the loss of Palestine were in truth made uneasy by the Palestinian refugees. It would have been the humane thing to tell the refugees that huge historical verdicts are never overturned. But it was safer to offer a steady diet of evasion and escapism.

Israel's 60th anniversary suggests what might have been. In those days of battle, when history was fluid, partition of Palestine was the way out—a Jewish state and an Arab state, side by side. The Zionists opted for moderation and rescue; they would take a state, said their legendary leader Chaim Weizmann, even if it were the size of a tablecloth. The Palestinians held out for the whole thing. This month's festivities marking the return of the Jews to the world of nations should be an occasion for some honest Palestinian (and Arab) retrospect on how Arab history has played out in the intervening decades.

http://www.usnews.com/articles/opinion/fajami/2008/05/07/a-reality-check-as-israel-turns-60.html

[Vegasaurus]

1. And "holding out for the whole thing"

which they continue to do,

has left them with nothing.

And will continue to leave them with nothing, until they realize that Israel is here to stay.

[Goodnevil]

2. This may be an unpopular opinion

but Israel lost it's right to exist when the Romans crushed them utterly. They did this to countless cultures and nations and we didn't relocate the survivors back to their homeland 2000 years later. This bumbling apology of Truman, Churchill and the West to the Jewish people was mad apologetic imperialism gone horribly wrong.

One cannot do what has been done. Now that Israel exists we are bound to support them, but I tell you truly I think that it would be best if we offered them all a home here in the U.S. I realize that could never happen...but one can dream?

Imagine if the Apache returned to Texas with aliens from another world, wielding far superior technology and said to everyone in the state:

"Hi! We're friends of the Apaches! We're gonna ask that all of you move to El Paso. NOW. If you don't, we'll utterly wipe you out and you'll have no chance to defend yourself. The 100,000 Apache that roamed these lands hundreds of years ago will now reside on the rest of the state and may move on to the little land we have left you at their leisure. Have a nice day! :)"

What is the difference between the ghettos in Warsaw and the ghettoes in Palestine and the West Bank? Genocide? Can we even be sure that isn't starting as well? Are the Israelis even innocent anymore?

Perhaps it would be wiser to avoid creating problems like what exists now in Israel/Palestine by not acting with impunity toward other cultures and nations smaller and/or weaker than our own.

If you give Israel back to the Jews, can you please give Germany back to the Celts? I happen to be a pagan with Celtic heritage and I sure would like it if we all worshipped the Earth again. Also, can you give Scotland back to the Picts?

Can you give Tibet back to the Tibetans?

Can you please roll back 10,000 years of suffering, misery and death which was the result of human greed and intolerance? That would be great.

Let's try not to do anymore harm than we already have by learning the lessons of history. The first way to right the wrong in Palestine is to admit that we made a huge mistake in placing the Jews in Israel and recreating the state in the first place.

Perhaps then we can work forward toward a better future in the Middle East.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Goodnevil]

4. Whoa there buddy

If the will of the Jewish people is to have a homeland at the Palestinian people's expense, then, yes, I am an anti-Semite.

If you're implying that I believe that the Jewish people are in some way inferior or in any way less than myself...well, you couldn't be more wrong.

I don't fall into stupid traps and you calling me an "anti-Semite" means exactly jack and s**t. Falling immediately into an argument like that indicates to me that you have ZERO moral authority to argue with me. It also indicates that you don't have much of a logical base to argue from either, much less any bloody facts.

I'm a pagan living in the middle of the Bible Belt my fine feathered friend. I worship a 10,000 year old river goddess that predates your god by about 4,000 years. Trust me, I know what it's like to be in the minority. I don't hate anyone, I don't see anyone as inferior or in any way genetically or racially different from myself. I have a lot of people in my immediate vicinity who don't care for the fact that I don't worship Jesus Christ, but I don't hate them, either - I just stay out of their way and keep myself in the broom closet. Last time I checked, brother, you can worship Jehovah freely here in America and Israel without people firing you or trying to prevent you from wearing your god's symbol into battle. We Pagans have been screwed with quite a bit here in the states for a number of years so much so that the Department of the Army didn't want to let a brave Sergeant put the pentacle on his tombstone. How much prejudice do you think I have against anyone? Nada.

Listen, I'm not condemning Israel for being Jewish, in fact, I'm not condemning Israel at all. Israel is in a bad position. I would fight my way out of that mess if I were an Israeli. If anything, I'm condemning the British and American Empires (and that stupid, stupid redneck, Harry Ass Truman) for being nimrods. The Zionist movement was born out of a real need to get out of a bad situation in Europe and Russia. Hell, I sure wish we pagans had a homeland because living in a Christian state when you're not one quite frankly sucks BIG TIME.

Israel being a "Jewish" state (though there are tons of Christians there as well) has very little to do with the whole thing, truth be told. As usual, religion has been used to justify all manner of horrors. This was a land grab, pure and simple. Poor Arab goat farmers got pushed around by the British and the Americans simply because those goat farmers couldn't fight back. All the Jews wanted was to get the hell away from all the people trying to KILL them. America was so anti-semitic at the time (they didn't want the Jews and that's the awful truth present day Americans don't want to face) and the Zionists were so hell-bent on reclaiming Israel that it seemed like a fine idea to carve out a nation. As good as an idea to create Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Sudan, CONGO and all those patchwork countries the British used to exploit.

The Arab nations surrounding Israel used the Palestinian plight as an excuse to invade...the same damn thing Americans do all around the world. The Arabs use "Islam" as a rallying cry and we use "democracy." Same game, different names.

The problem I have is the Israeli and American people's complete unwillingness to admit that this whole thing might have been a massively stupid idea.

To be fair, we Americans killed just a bundle of tribes to get our land, but we did it on our own. If nothing else, I wish that we would simply stop selling to Israel our M-1's and Apaches and cut off the $20 billion in aid a year so that we can wash our hands of this. It's hard for Americans to morally justify that, however, for two reasons:

1.) Most Americans are Christians and that's our "Holy Land." Right, I get that. Religion and politics...blah, blah, blah, revelations, yadda, yadda, yadda

2.) We helped create the borders of the state, and now we have to continue to watch over them (father syndrome)

Sooner or later we're going to have to cut the cord on Israel. I'm hoping sooner because, quite frankly, it's perpetuating a lot of hate with a lot of Arabs and it's costing us money and international political capital. I see no benefit to supporting Israel in the Mid-East theater. Once upon a time, she could be seen as a possible beachhead to land our troops in case Ivan decided to mosey on down into the Arab oil fields, but Ivan's got his own oil fields now and has his hands full in Belarus.

[pelsar]

6. israel is no more a mistake

than is the US, zimbabwa (ok maybe zimbabwa is actually a bigger mistake....) perhaps sudan was a lesser mistake?..probably not, given the death toll there and real genocide. Russia?...well with their carpet bombing etc of chechniya i would say they too can be considered a mistake worse than israel. Lebanon?..nice attempt at "multiculturalism, but a failure as a state on the ground.

China, probably has probably one of the better records when it comes to killing etc of its own citizens, so we can probably put them up there as a mistake as well...

actually the way it looks is that israel is actually one of the better, more stable states in the world....sure those who prefer dictatorships, tribal oriented govts and religious theocracies are pissed (the realistic alternative), but thats natural.....

[Donald Ian Rankin]

8. You don't make your case strongly.

The foundation of the US was, indeed, a massive crime against humanity - at least the Israelis haven't committed genocide against the Palestinians.

I know very little about the foundation of Zimbabwe, but I believe it to have been formed as part of the dismantling of the British empire, which a) should never have been formed, and b) was dismantled in a very unsuccessful fashion, leading to things like the partition of India and Pakistan where millions died.

Israel should never, ever have been founded; its foundation was a tragedy and a crime against the Palestinians. That many other nations should never have been founded either is not a defence of the foundation of Israel.

However, that doesn't mean that Israel and the US should be destroyed, or that India and Pakistan should be remerged. A people gain a right to a land by living there; infanticide is no solution to having failed to use contraception.

Israel had no right to exist when it was founded, but it has since aquired one due to the births of large numbers of Israeli citizens who have no other homeland, and who are not complicit in the crime of their forefathers (and of the British, who also bear considerable responsibility for the foundation of Israel).

It's not too late for the dismantling of Israel's illegal settlements to be a good thing, but if - as, sadly, they will - they continue to exist and grow then eventually they will aquire a right to remain.

[Vegasaurus]

10. Throughout history, there have been land acquisitions

displacement of people, conquests, wars.

Very few countries, except those that refuse immigration or citizenship to people other than themselves (the Arab countries, for example) are comprised of only indigenous people.

In that respect, the entire world is made up of countries that were founded on "massive crimes against humanity".

Jews were kicked off their indigenous land and have returned.

They aren't going willingly and passively into ovens again, aren't being forced into "dhimmi" status, and aren't putting up with another 2000 years of persecution.

People will just have to adjust to the fact that Israel exists, even if they don't like the conditions under which it was founded.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

11. I agree with most of that.

"Jews were kicked off their indigenous land and have returned", however, is nonsense - the indigenous people of Israel are the Palestinians, not the Jews (in a few hundred years it will be the indigenous land of the Jews; arguably sooner); moving to land which was occupied thousands of years ago by people you are distantly descended from is not a return in any meaningful sense.

I fully agree that most nations were founded on massive crimes - changing national boundaries nearly always involves a great deal of evil (schisms are *occasionally* justifable; unifications or foundations almost never).

[Goodnevil]

13. Agreed

As I said, if I were an Israeli, I would certainly fight this one out.

I'm merely arguing discontinuing the support of the Israeli state, both politically and economically, by the United States.

[pelsar]

24. i was just arguing the standard...

or the double standard, since i cant recall even the question if zimbabwa, sudan, or china should continue to exist or if they are a mistake......israel in becoming established and its existence is actually far above the worlds standard for government. Furthermore I would argue that dictatorships in fact have no right to exist...that would include not just the entire arab rule but "most likely" the version of the Palestinian govt that would have emerged in the late 1930s or 40s had the Palestinians established self-rule.

I suspect with good reason that the arabs in israel, do not see israel as the mistake...given the probable alternative had israel lost in 48 or having not even been established.....

----------------
in respect to the settlements...i agree with you

[LeftishBrit]

55. Would you agree with the following statement:

"The United Kingdom should never, ever have been founded; its foundation was a tragedy and a crime against the Irish, Scots and Welsh"? I would if I think about it- and yet I would not really support the current nationalist movements; what's done is done, and reversing it is likely to just cause further strife.

I honestly think that the foundation of almost *any* country could be seen as pretty disastrous if examined carefully. For example, what about the Partition and foundation of modern India and Pakistan, with the horrific bloodbath that resulted? This happened at almost exactly the same time as Israeli independence and the Nakba, and involved much larger numbers of people - and yet far fewer people in the international community seem to bring this up than the problems with the foundation of Israel.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that there is generally little point in treating any one country, that currently exists, as somehow less valid than others, because some violence and injustice were involved in its foundation and maintenance (give me a list of countries where this is NOT the case - I don't think it would be a very long one). It's much more constructive to look at what's happening NOW, and to try to get rid of injustices that are currently taking place: e.g. Israel shouldn't be constructing any new settlements, and Hamas and Islamic Jihad shouldn't be firing rockets.

[wuushew]

5. I have real doubts about how much "growing" Israel can sustain

Between peak oil and climate change I think whatever people inhabit that region of the Earth are in for a real decline in their standard of living.

Also economically speaking what inherent advantage can such a small country hope to have against the awesome might of Asia? Natural gumption can only compensate for lack of natural resources to a limited extent.

[Shaktimaan]

7. Singapore's doing pretty well tho. np

[Goodnevil]

9. Asia has it's own problems

not the least of which is overpopulation, massive pollution and a growing lack of natural resources. That...is another tale though.

[cali]

53. History isn't fair. And history is filled with conquests and its pages

spill over with refugees. Perhaps the establishment of a modern state of Israel was a mistake, but as you say it can't be undone. And dreaming about the alternatives is simply a waste of time. If Israel lost its right to exist because of the Romans crushing it, did Poland lose its right to exist because the Nazis crushed them utterly? What's the difference?

No, the first step to peace is not saying that Israel is a giant mistake. That's only part of the truth. And part of the truth is a lie. The first step is work with the gritty reality of what is. That means the US taking a tough stance about settlements. That means talking to all parties in the Palestinian Government. That means working toward creating a viable Palestinian State.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

12. Moderation and rescue??!! What a joke! This Nakba denial is insane.

As one commentator noted in his blog, regarding a Nakba-denial piece in Commentary:

http://www.philipweiss.org/mondoweiss/


'Commentary' Ignores Palestinians' Eyewitness Testimony in Denying that Zionists Drove Arabs From Jaffa in '48
Last week I blogged about Commentary's piece denying the Nakba, which was underwritten by the chairman of the New-York Historical Society-- a landmark of Nakba denial, published in what was once a glory of Jewish intellectual tradition: Commentary, the magazine I grew up with, stacks of it, my parents didn't throw it away. The article demonstrates how fealty to Israel is eroding Jewish intelligence, as it has forced some of the smartest people on the planet to devote themselves to alchemy, coming up with elaborate proofs that black is white.

One paragraph that particularly disturbed me said that "huge numbers of Palestinian Arabs were being actively driven from their homes by their own leaders and/or by Arab military forces.. In Jaffa, Palestine's largest Arab city, the municipality organized the transfer of thousands of residents by land and sea..." In making this assertion, author Efraim Karsh denied the New Standard View, that the Zionists forced the Palestinians from Jaffa. He offered no evidence......



--------------------------------------

The good news is that 10 years ago, no one knew what the Nakba even was. Now it's regular parlance in the NYT, Boston Globe and Newsweek magazine. You can try to bury the truth, but it will emerge every time. Time is on the side of justice.

[leftynyc]

14. Look, the sad truth is

that the Arab world took a chance in 1948 to try and get it all and they lost huge. Israel isn't going anywhere and the sooner the fanatics (who are the ones who are keeping their people in misery) get that through their thick skulls, the better everyone's life will be. If you think words like nakba are turning around people's perceptions, I'd take a look at the polls that suggest otherwise. But, keep screaming about the unfairness of it all - that'll get you far.

[notfullofit]

15. This is true,

had it not been for this forum, I would never known of the word nakba (and I'm an old fogey). I'll venture to say that neither has 90% of the western world.

[leftynyc]

20. True enough

Americans are woefully ignorant of the rest of the world and frankly, couldn't care less if it doesn't affect them directly.

[Violet_Crumble]

27. 'Americans are woefully ignorant of the rest of the world'

If this forum is taken as a microcosm of the US, then no truer words have ever been spoken. Only problem is they don't seem to realise how ignorant they are and in the process make complete fools of themselves..

[leftynyc]

30. This site isn't a microcosm of anything

I only see what my niece and nephew are learning in school and see VERY little about international affairs. They do have the option of the internet (which wasn't around when I was growing up) which will help and satellite TV will also be helpful in this arena. That doesn't mean they will grow to care but at least they'll know what's going on. You can't force people to care about stuff just because you care about it.

[Violet_Crumble]

36. Sure it is...

Much more so than some anecdotal story about some niece and nephew...

[leftynyc]

37. So you think what my sister's kids

are NOT learning is an abberation in the US? I defy anyone to name a public school in the US that places any kind of real emphasis on foreign affairs. This site is a small group of progressive democrats (and plenty aren't even that) - the members represent a very small minority.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

51. You said you were vanishing a few posts back...

I'll file 'nip at someone else's heels' in the clumsy debate tactic file with 'frothing at the mouth'. When nipping at heels, I'd prefer some heels that contained a bit of substance, anyway :)

[notfullofit]

44. What you say is

true. The US schools teach geography but not the social studies required to go along with it.
I wonder if the same is true in other countries' education systems.

[leftynyc]

45. I couldn't say

but it's a travesty here in the US. The kids have no context to even understand if they watch any international channels on sattelite TV or read online newspapers. They are the future leaders - but somehow we have managed to survive the chimps administration and he certainly didn't have any concept of the world outside of Texas so I guess there is always hope.

[notfullofit]

46. The internet

can be a valuable teaching tool but also a destructive one if not monitored.
There is a whole lot of lopsided information readily available too (propaganda abounds).

[leftynyc]

47. That's a very good point

I was really thinking in terms of being able to read any newspaper in the world but you're very right about the abuse.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

16. The sad truth is, that the stumbling block isn't Arab rejection.

It's Israel' unwillingness to stop the settlement drive, and put an end to the occupation machine.

How else can one explain the exponential settlement expansion, during the Oslo years of the 1990s?

[leftynyc]

19. History did not begin in the 90's

Plenty of people actually remember 1948. Whoever heard of the losers getting rewarded before this?

[Vegasaurus]

21. Whoever heard of losers making the demands of these?

You start a bunch of wars, which you lose.

Suffer the consequences and move on.

It isn't the winners fault that you made bad choices.

[leftynyc]

22. Tis the way it's always been until now

And people wonder why there is more sympathy for the Israeli's who have lived under the spectre of war since the day of their independence because many of their neighbors are still pissed at losing to a bunch of Jews. And make no mistake, that's exactly what this is all about - losing face.

[Vegasaurus]

23. and Jews

it really is all about Jews, because the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank was seemingly not a problem when it was Arabs doing the occupying.

It is only occupation by Jews that gets these "progressives" all up in arms.

Same is true with real genocides, fratricides, etc.

People turn the other cheek.

[leftynyc]

25. Very good point

I certainly don't remember people being up in arms about occupation when it was Egypt and Jordan. Interesting, don't ya think?

[Violet_Crumble]

28. What point? Implying that left-wingers are antisemitic if they oppose the occupation?

And seeing you 'remember' that far back, maybe you could point out where Egypt and Jordan were building settlements for Egyptians and Jordanians in Gaza and the West Bank, and maybe you could point out how you *know* for a fact that left-wingers who oppose the occupation aren't opposed to other occupations, like the occupation of East Timor and Tibet for example. While it might be much lazier mentally to just fling around accusations and implications of antisemitism at people who do dare criticise Israel for the occupation, I find those folk who obsess constantly about Jews and Arabs when it comes to the conflict to be creepy sort of folk...

[Name removed]

29. Deleted sub-thread

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[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

38. I hate to break it to you but I can multitask...

But seeing yr so fascinated by what I do online away from DU, I also manage part of a large government website and occassionally will wander over to read The Guardian and The Age...

Anyway, getting things back on track here (after all, I thought this was the I/P forum), I just thought I'd point you to a question I asked you in another thread that I'm interested in seeing an answer to...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=211541&mesg_id=211913

on edit: I guess I should thank you for giving me an opportunity to give the forum a free plug. While it won't interest those who blame one side only for the conflict and who shriek insults, anyone here who is interested in discussing the I/P conflict in a civil way is more than welcome to join.

http://www.israelpalestineforum.com/forum/index.php

[Vegasaurus]

43. That echo chamber?

You just ban anyone who is pro-Israel!

[Violet_Crumble]

52. Yeah, that's what Freepers call DU as well...

Not being all that bright, they don't see that DU has a wide range of opinions voiced, and just like my forum, it's no echo chamber. Seeing as how a few pro-Israel DUers are members of my forum, and the only people who have been banned so far are a few antisemites, Arab-haters, extremists, and a creepy bloke who was tombstoned long ago from here who registers under names of DUers he hates and pretends to be them, you might like to attempt to rethink the whole 'echo chamber' thing...

[Dick Dastardly]

54. Veg is correct, it is an echo chamber of anti Israel propaganda

It is intolerant of deviation from its anti Israel stance and is cut from the same intolerant cloth as the semite site that is pro Israel. If you start defending Israel you are banned. They are incapable of debating someone who is pro Israel and hurl insults but will ban the pro Israel poster for fihting back. I got banned for being pro Israel and I didnt even post anything really pro Israel. They bash DU as being one sided when they need to look in the mirror, there are a wide range of opinions here but only a narrow one there.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftishBrit]

57. Was it ever?

The left has always been pretty factionalist; and members of different factions are often fervently opposed to each other, as well as to the right. One reason why I think that RW journalists and others who seek to define 'the left' are generally pretty silly!

In any case, there is a difference between 'crushing dissent' as in murdering people and putting them in prison, and 'crushing dissent' as in banning them from a message-board. The latter is often unpleasant and unfair; but it shouldn't be equated with the actions of the far-RW.

Full disclosure, since the topic has come up: I am a (moderately) pro-Israel member of the Israel Palestine Forum, and there are others there who are more pro-Israel than I am, though the anti-Israel members there do seem to post more.

[Violet_Crumble]

58. I don't know why my forum is suddenly such a big issue, but yr wrong...

First, there's a wide variety of views expressed there, and if it's an echo chamber, I don't know why I find myself disagreeing with some views expressed there, some of which are from pro-Israel members, and some from pro-Palestinian members. Secondly, no-one there is allowed to hurl insults and it doesn't matter what their views are. Luckily most of our members are mature and don't feel the need to hurl insults. Thirdly, you weren't banned, and seeing there's a few DUers who identify themselves as being pro-Israel who are members, it's pretty obvious that people aren't banned for being pro-Israel. Fourthly, I personally find echo chambers and forums where there's an obsession with bashing DU to be really pathetic, and there's no way I'd run a forum that did just that, especially as I have a fair bit of respect for Skinner (based on the times I've talked with him) and the mods here in the I/P forum. That doesn't mean I don't agree with every decision they make, but it certainly means if someone were to use the forum as a platform to bash DU I'd not look very kindly on it at all...

on edit: seeing as how the DU I/P forum isn't a platform for you and Veggie to have a bitch about other forums, I suggest that if you have an issue with my forum, you take it up with me by PM...

[LeftishBrit]

59. Who says that left-wingers are antisemitic if they oppose the occupation?

I am a left-winger who opposes the occupation, but also opposes the violent tactics of Hamas, and supports the right of Israel to exist.

I think that VERY few people, certainly on a liberal board, would think that people are antisemitic just because they oppose the occupation. It is people who oppose the existence of Israel at all and/or blame it for other countries' misdeeds, who might be regarded as antisemitic or often just dangerously naive.

[Shaktimaan]

48. I actually think the opposite.

That the stumbling block is on the Arab side.

How else can you explain the terrorism spike directly following the Oslo Accords ratification? (When Israel froze all settlement activity. Also when Hamas and other refusniks came out publicly to claim responsibility for the rising terrorist attacks in response to Oslo.)

[Sezu]

17. Israel was willing to let international law settle it

but Arabs decided to go to war and wipe them out. Somehow today that decision is supported by "progressives," who except for that particular attempted genocide disdain premptive war. What's wrong with this picture?

[notfullofit]

18. I consider

myself a "progressive" and I do not support that view.

[Sezu]

31. The reason I put quotes around progressives was to

indicate that those who do support that view aren't really progressives. IMO they are regressives. I meant no slur against rational progressives.

[Violet_Crumble]

34. Don't worry. Many 'newbies' here put quotes around progressives...

..within their first twenty posts. Anyway, I just want to get something confirmed from you. If someone doesn't agree with yr version of events in 1948, they're not really progressives? Coz I've just realised that seeing there was no attempted genocide by any parties involved in 1948, I must not be a progressive! Wow, and I've been posting here at DU since 2002 without realising! ;)

[azurnoir]

50. Notice how these "newbies"

give less and less info on their profiles?

[azurnoir]

49. Yes sirreee

supporting continued war (of course the side with the biggest guns) and continued land appropriation, those are progressive views alright.

[Violet_Crumble]

26. Is there any chance you'll address the post, which was about denial of the Nakba?

And how exactly was PM's post about Nakba denial 'screaming about the unfairness of it all'?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

40. No chance of addressing substance here... nt

[Violet_Crumble]

41. Yeah, it does appear to be like that...

I'm still trying to work out how replies basically saying 'Israel won! Tough shit!' and that not many people know what Nakba means has to do with yr post about Nakba denial. I'm sure many people aren't aware in any more than a dim, vague sort of way of what happened to the Australian Aboriginals when European settlement started, but a lack of knowledge is not the same as denial, and there's deniers when it comes to what happened here...

[DU GrovelBot]

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