Mustafa Barghouti: We remain

[ProgressiveMuslim]

Nothing can annul the legitimacy of the Palestinian struggle for justice and self-determination, writes Mustafa Barghouti*

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sixty years on what Palestinians refer to as the Nakba -- the catastrophe -- but what might be more accurately termed the inauguration of the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, one is struck by a remarkable irony. Both Palestinians and Israelis appear engaged in a neck-and-neck contest to enter the greatest number of precedents in the Guinness Book of Records.

Palestinians in Bethlehem created the largest key in the world, to symbolise the right to return, and the largest flag in the world, to symbolise the Palestinians' thus far denied right to self-determination. And they wrote the longest protest letter ever, on behalf of thousands of Palestinian political detainees and in defence of the cause of freedom.

The Israelis, meanwhile, cooked the largest ever dish of hummus, symbolising their resolve to appropriate Palestinian culture after having seized most of Palestinian land and appropriated Palestinian political rights.

Each side has its own way of commemorating the founding of the so-called state of Israel. Perhaps the best book that can be read on this occasion is The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by Ilan Pappe. In this latest of his works, the Israeli historian systematically and in uncompromisingly objective detail exposes the fallacy of the Zionist narrative of events between 1947 and 1948. Pappe argues that the expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians was not the product of the random circumstances of war, but rather the deliberate combat goal of early Israeli military units. He substantiates his arguments with extensive documentation of more than 30 horrific massacres of Palestinian civilians and demolitions of Palestinian villages carried out by members of the Haganah, the Irgun and the Stern Gang. His invaluable work crowns a collection of similar studies undertaken by such eminent scholars as Avi Shlaim, Walid Al-Khalidi and Edward Said.

If Israel has since been surpassed in its record of the fastest ethnic cleansing operation in history, it is now the record holder in the longest occupation in modern history. Five years ago, the Israeli occupation of the West Bank (including Jerusalem) and Gaza, which began in 1967, stole that record from the Japanese occupation of Korea.

Not happy, it then topped this with the incontestably unique twist of turning the occupation into the worst form of apartheid in history. Testimony to this comes from such prominent figures as former US president Jimmy Carter and the current South African minister of intelligence -- a man of Jewish origin -- Ronnie Kasrils. Both of these men have seen the realties on the ground and both refused to let Israeli intellectual terrorism intimidate them from telling the truth and keeping faith with their consciences, the cause of human rights and the history of the struggle against apartheid in South Africa.

We know, of course, that the current US president, George W Bush, along with many other Western leaders, has hastened to share in the Israeli anniversary celebrations, eyes studiously averted from what is happening to the Palestinians. But we also know that Israel's image has sunk dramatically in the balance of Western public opinion, in spite of the generally pro- Israeli bias of Western media. Nor have we missed yet another testimony to the hypocrisy that typifies politics in this day and age: Nelson Mandela, the most celebrated and respected figures in the world, is still on the US Congress's terrorist list, as is the African National Congress, the ruling party in South Africa today.

But beyond all that hypocrisy, distortion of truth and self-deception, Israel's triple-laurel, made up of the fastest ethnic cleansing operation, the longest occupation and the worst apartheid, has not only inflicted an unpardonable injustice on the Palestinian people, it has also inflicted an unforgivable offence against Jews themselves and against the memory of their suffering and persecution at the hands of the Nazis and in earlier chapters of history.

In their struggle against apartheid, the Palestinians are fighting for the right of Palestinian refugees to live in their national home with dignity, like other peoples, and they are fighting to recover their usurped right of self-determination....

read on...
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2008/897/op1.htm

[cali]

1. Not a terribly impressive piece. Sadly it comes off as petty

this is ridiculous, and not even true. Chickpeas have been eaten and cultivated and consumed by the peoples of the Middle East, Africa and India for millenia. Hummus and variations on the dish are found in many different cultures. It doesn't belong to the Palestinians.

"The Israelis, meanwhile, cooked the largest ever dish of hummus, symbolising their resolve to appropriate Palestinian culture after having seized most of Palestinian land and appropriated Palestinian political rights."

And why make a statement that's patently false to most educated people? Israel's occupation of the West Bank is not the longest occupation. China has occupied Tibet for 52 years. Both occupations are terrible, but it's a fact that China has occupied Tibet for over a decade longer than Israel has occupied the West Bank. Oh, and calling Israel the so-called State of Israel is simply refusing to live in reality. As Pema Chodron says "Start Where You Are". And where the Palestinians need to start is recognizing the reality of Israel- hateful as that understandably is to them.

Much of what Barghouti writes is true, but much of it is inflated. He seems determined to push the narrative that Palestinians have suffered more than any other persons on the planet. Why even go that route? Suffering of groups shouldn't be a contest.

The rhetoric Barghouti employs is the rhetoric of demonization and hyperbole. It advances nothing positive whatsoever.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

2. Barghouti is the most realistic moderate of the bunch.

This is the tamest POV (outside Abbas' quisling group) we're likely to encounter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Barghouti

[pelsar]

3. and why its "regressive"....

propaganda...i.e. either simply making up stuff, exaggerating etc does no one any good here. If it was like in, lets say WWII, where the idea was "unconditional surrender" of the japanese, germans and italians the propaganda on the US side had a single purpose..to inspire and motivate the american citizens..and if any germans or japanese saw it, it would make little difference.

Today things are different. Cheap propaganda: stating claims that we are causing genocide, ethnic cleansing, massacring (i cant recall the last time any one i knew lined up the some Palestinians against a wall and machine gunned to death), giving them aids, gassing, cartoons of sharon eating Palestinian babies (england)....all get read by me and others like me......

and it reminds us of the stories of our grandparents in russia, the stories of spain, germany, france, egypt, syria, etc......just a modern more sophisticated version of the blood libel (jews needing christian/muslim blood for matza).

same shit... different package.....its a shame, because it doesnt nothing for peace....but a lot for war and occupation

[ProgressiveMuslim]

4. Here's the thing though.

This isn't a Hamas propagandist.

This is how it is experienced Pelsar.

It's not "hyperbole." It's life under Israeli occupation.

[cali]

6. I'm sorry, but making the spurious claim that the Israeli

occupation is the occupation of longest duration in modern history is at the least hyperbole. Saying it's the worst, is neither true or productive. It's the worst for the Palestinians. Isn't that enough?
And why even include the nonsense about hummus? It just comes off as startlingly petty and inane. Not to mention not true.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

7. Do you seriously contend that the state of Israel hasn't appropriated aspects of Arab cuisine and

culture as its own?

[cali]

10. I seriously contend it's an utterly ridiculous thing to state

as if it were some sort of anomalous culture crime. As a serious cook and student of the history of world cuisine, I know it's nonsense. Why? Because all cultures today are happy and not so happy melting pots when it comes to food and cuisine. It's just silly not to understand the flow of culture between societies. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. And it's fascinating how many cultures developed similar dishes without apparent influence from other cultures as well. You want to make it into some silly business about Israelis "stealing" Palestinian cuisine and culture. Oh Noes!: The Israelis made a giant dish of hummus. It's part of a plot to steal Palestinian culture!! With all the real injustices perpetrated by the Israelis- from the Settlements to Gaza to the usurpation of water, why even introduce such nonsense?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

14. A single sentence in the OP, Cali. Talk about hyperbole... pot meet kettle! nt

[cali]

16. Just calling something hyperbole without explaining why

doesn't cut it. How is it hyperbole to note the nature of the cultural flow of cuisine? And please, try to recognize sarcasm. The oh noes comment was obvious sarcasm. Barghouti and you did indeed try to make a case for the nonsense that the Israelis are trying to appropriate Palestinian culture via their production of a vat of hummus. It's actually funny- in a sad kind of way.

[Vegasaurus]

17. But it speaks to something larger

which is the sense that the Israelis are out to rob the Palestinians of everything, including their cuisine.

It isn't true (there were 800,000 Jews, who were expelled from Arab countries; they clearly ate hummous) and it is a bigger issue in Arab propaganda than cuisine.

[Violet_Crumble]

23. Speaking of larger, anyone else noticed how yr upping the numbers by 50K a day?

there were 800,000 Jews, who were expelled from Arab countries;

Yesterday you said there were 750,000, both of which figures are incorrect. You acknowledged a while back when it was pointed out to you that it was a push/pull thing where some were expelled, some fled, and others went to Israel willingly. So why knowing it's not correct would you keep on stating something you know's not correct and start pumping up the numbers from yr original incorrect claim?

[azurnoir]

28. Time period is "adjusted" per need

Quite the numbers game there first you use the 1947-1948 numbers to minimalize the number of Palestinians expelled from Israel, and then maximize the number of Jews expelled from Arab countries by using the numbers from 1947-2000. In truth the 1947-1948 numbers for each group are near equal with there being slightly more Palestinians around 750,000 Palestinians vs around 711,00 Jews.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=210405

[Vegasaurus]

32. No one knows the exact number, and you know that

Just like no one knows how many Arabs were expelled or fled, or left willingly.

Your notion of a narrative doesn't make it more true, because you have a clear personal bias.

[Violet_Crumble]

97. Saying that 750,000 (+50k a day) were expelled is a complete falsehood...

What you have been claiming is simply not true, and you know that. How about trying to give even the most casual nod to facts when discussing the conflict? While the exact number of Palestinians or Middle Eastern Jews who were forcibly expelled isn't known, trying to insist all who left were forcibly expelled is clearly incorrect and not supported by facts. This has nothing to do with narratives or my own personal bias (and my bias here is that I'm biased against mindless propaganda and bullshit), and everything to do with getting sick of seeing the same bullshit peddled over and over again by some in this forum...

[Sezu]

42. It's a simple jump the shark situation. Barghoti comes across

as just another charismatic asshole.

[LeftishBrit]

19. Israel is a country full of immigrants. Many of them from Arab countries.

So of course Arab cuisine and culture will be part of the mix in Israeli culture. Just as East Europaean culture will be part of the mix. It doesn't mean that Israel has somehow stolen these things from Arab countries or Eastern Europe.

American also is a nation of immigrants, and the cuisine and culture of many countries is part of the national mix. What's the difference?

[notfullofit]

48. Pizza anyone? nt.

[Igel]

46. Hard to know.

It's hard to tell what aspects are appropriated from Arab cuisine, and which aspects of Arab cuisine are appropriate from Jewish cuisine.

Why?

Because the first Arabs are attested in the area a few centuries BPE, and few in number. Traders and Bedouins. They increase later, in a slow trickle. Already in the area were numerous Jews, and they continued--the Diaspora notwithstanding--in the area, with pretty much an uninterrupted presence in E. Jerusalem until the ethnic cleansing under the Arabs in '67. During the Islamic conquest a fair number of Arabs moved in, but they just sort of overlaid their genes and culture on the genes and cultures already there.

Lets see ... chickpeas were a Fertile Crescent founding crop, c. 9-8k BPE, and sesame seeds were used in Harappa and ancient Egypt, long before the first Arabs were attested out of Arabia, when NW Semitic ruled the ME roost and long before Arabic even squashed the other ethnicities and languages on the Arabian peninsula. Falafels are similar enough to hummus, they were ancient when the Romans were in Palestine. The Israelites picked up Canaanitish and Assyrian foods, if you like the Exodus theory; otherwise, they were pretty much already in the area. Maybe when the Philistines got off the boat they introduced some nice Asian-Minor recipes. Did the Arabs, late comers to the region, innovate these foods? Hardly. They may have tweaked them, but even that needs verification, and cuisines drift with time, anyway.

It's the same with Jews in Central Europe and Germans in Russian. The Poles I interacted with were amused: I had names for a lot of their foods, but they were all Jewish names. A lot--not all, but a lot--of American typically Jewish food is Polish or generic Central European. A Mennonite Plattdeutsch woman in our church made foods that I had good Russian and Ukrainian names for--but she swore (if she were to swear) that they were what Germans in Russian and the Ukraine made. No doubt. You move into an area, you pick up the recipes from your neighbors because, well, they used the local foods before you showed up, and now you'll be using the local foods. In the case of Poland, the Jews and the Poles got cabbage and potatoes at the same time, even. In any event, hummus was Middle Eastern when it was the center of the world and not "the East", it was there when the first Arab traders got there, 800-900 years before the Islamic conquest of the area, when the Muslims pacified the Byzantines and other locals. (Remember--the word 'pacified' is from the word for 'peace'.)

And if there *were* Arab foods and such borrowed by Jews, there was, of course, a long pre-Israel period in which that could have happened. But Shepardim are so, well, discounted--even Hamas' "throw them into the sea" rhetoric denies that the Shepardim were there. If we ignore the Shepardim, then any borrowing *has* to occur after 1948. But let's stay reality-based, shall we? In any event, the direction of borrowing also has to be proven independently--I assume we want to stay in reality, however unpleasant it may be.

Palestinian isn't the only ethnicity with people with this surreal "I believe it, and my politics demand it, so it must be so", even if no amount of foot-stamping will make it so. Slavs and Greeks have it, too, as do Russians and Balts and even the Chinese.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

55. Are those Shepardim ancient sheep herders? nt

[shaayecanaan]

86. The word "Hummus" is Arabic - it means chickpeas...

I agree its a silly argument, and AFAIC Jews can eat it as much as they like. Just like tabouleh, which the Israelis call "kibbutz salad". But it is equally silly to insinuate that the foods themselves are not of Arab origin.

Personally, I was glad when I went to Israel that those foods were available. I had this premonition before I went there that the food would like the kosher section in the supermarket, eg, gefilte fish, matzah ball soup, etc. Fortunately the food there is predominantly Arab/Mediterranean in origin, except for the pastries and bakeries which are European, and rightfully so - the Europeans definitely trump the Arabs when it comes to sweets.

[azurnoir]

88. Not so fast there on the sweets

nothing beats baklawa.

[pelsar]

11. no its hyperbole...

i have a pretty damn good idea of what us israelis do to the Palestinians.....and a pretty damn good idea what we dont do:

committing genocide is not one of them
putting aid in candies in not one of them
massacring Palestinians is not one of them
targeting journalists
targeting children

we dont cook humus as some kind of "symbol" of taking Palestinian land (is humas an exclusive Palestinian dish?...cant jewish israelis eat it? enjoy it?)
Longest occupation?....whats the problem? Barghouti cant do math?
worst apartheid?...really i must have missed the separate roads, building entrances, bathrooms, etc during my last visit to the westbank or in israel itself

___

hyperbole is cheap, it encourages dehumanization and it encourages continued violence as a result....a nice first step would be sticking to the facts....feel free to interpret them as is ones preference...but there is little need to make up stuff.

it just one more stupid strategy being used......

[ProgressiveMuslim]

13. I do not believe that is hyperbole. More imporant,

this reflects, not propaganda, but the feeling among Palestinians.

This is what you contend with as you make peace.

It's an important gauge of how the occupation is experienced -- regardless of how you see it as an occupier.

Do you see no value in reading the piece as an expression of the perception of a leader of the moderate, independent movement in Palesetine?

[cali]

22. there is value in reading it as an expression of the perception

a Palestinian leader and spokesman.

It's a shame he missed the opportunity to write a factual and powerful piece on behalf of the Palestinian people.

Do you honestly believe that claiming the Israelis are trying to steal Palestinian cuisine and culture advances anything? Do you believe that his claim that the Israeli occupation is the longest and most brutal occupation of any occupation in modern history?

As I said, I see it largely as a missed opportunity.

[pelsar]

24. there is plenty of value...

in understanding the feelings of the Palestinians.....just as there is plenty of value of the Palestinians learning about the feelings of the israelis.....

i admit to having little understanding why someone has to make up shit to get their point across. There are plenty of things israel/IDF does that on a personal level is horrible (taking over homes, charging in at 2:00am humiliating the father in front of his kids etc)

i have a suggestion.....he should learn to express himself accurately, using the environment as it is.... there is more than enough material...he might even get some sympathy from the israelis as opposed to the opposite.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

26. Again, just try to hear what I'm saying.

Do you truly think it's "made up" for a Palestinian to survey the past 60 years and see a long program of ethnic cleansing?

Pelsar, you know full well Barghouti is the hope of the future. He is not lunatic fringe. What he is expressing in that piece is that through it all, Palestinians are standing firm.... read on that he had to say further:



.....Sixty years after its founding, the Israeli establishment -- ruled today by generals of war and captains of the military-industrial complex -- can not, no matter how hard it tries, discredit the legitimacy of the Palestinian struggle for the universally recognised basic human rights to equality, freedom and self-determination. Nor will it ever succeed in refuting Mandela's famous observation that the Palestinian cause is the foremost challenge to international humanitarian conscience.

Supporters of the Israeli occupation are ceaselessly amazed at how tenaciously the Palestinians refuse to cave in to the cruellest of blows. Nor can they conceal their wonder at the constantly regenerating impetus the drive for Palestinian rights has received from new generations of Palestinians, even from those born and raised in the Diaspora, whose sense of what is wrong and unjust only deepens with time.

Despite our failures, our divisions and our mistakes, and despite the cruelties the world, both near and far, has meted out to us, we -- the Palestinians -- are moving forward, struggling to keep the torches of self-confidence, hope and faith in the value of human justice alive and burning.

Meanwhile Israel -- the fourth largest arms exporter in the world, possessor of 400 nuclear warheads, the manufacturer of ceaseless wars, the driver of an economy thriving on stolen land and water, and on the sweat of others' brows -- is sinking further and further on the scales of humanitarian values, as though determined to move against the tide of justice which colonialist powers larger and older than Israel failed to turn -- in India, Algeria, South Africa, and certainly in Palestine.....


What do you take away from that?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

27. And Pelsar, I think the world is crystal clear on the range of Israel's feelings.

We are clear on the psychological needs of the long-time victims, Israelis' needs to feel secure, etc.

[henank]

29. Exaggerate much?

Meanwhile Israel -- the fourth largest arms exporter in the world, possessor of 400 nuclear warheads, the manufacturer of ceaseless wars, the driver of an economy thriving on stolen land and water, and on the sweat of others' brows -- is sinking further and further on the scales of humanitarian values, as though determined to move against the tide of justice which colonialist powers larger and older than Israel failed to turn -- in India, Algeria, South Africa, and certainly in Palestine.....

What do you take away from that?

That you exaggerate.

Manufacturer of ceaseless wars??? Israel is the sole manufacturer? What? The Arabs had no part in these wars at all? They haven't threatened annihilation for over 6 decades?

"the driver of an economy thriving on stolen land and water,": the land has not been stolen. It is disputed in many instances, but in very many places it was bought with good Jewish money. Gush Etzion for example. Kfar Darom in Gaza for another example.

"sinking further and further on the scales of humanitarian values, as though determined to move against the tide of justice which colonialist powers larger and older than Israel failed to turn -- in India, Algeria, South Africa": Let's get one thing straight. Israel is not a colonialist power. The Jews have as much right to a homeland in Israel as any other nation in the world to their homeland. The fact that the Palestinians dispute this does not have any effect on this fact.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

30. NOT A COLONIALIST POWER??? What planet do you live on??

[Vegasaurus]

33. The people calling Israel, a sovereign nation,

a colonialist power, are those that dispute the very existence of the country,

There is no other way to understand this.

Israel is colonizing no one. It is the national homeland for Jews, and the fact is, the Arabs are pissed off about it, and have been for 60 years.

So they have started wars and terrorized the nation,but it doesn't change the fact that Israel is here and going no where.

[sabbat hunter]

34. why didnt

the Palestinians declare a state the same day that Israel was formed?

And where do you get your number of nuclear warheads they have, do you have some special insight into their nuclear program? (not denying they have nuclear weapons, but I have yet to see a number)

[Vegasaurus]

36. The Palestinians clearly have never wanted a state next to Israel

They have always wanted ALL of Israel, and that's why they are still sitting in shitty refugee camps while Israelis are developing life saving techniques.

It could have been so different for the Palestinians, who have squandered every opportunity ever available to them.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

39. I can't answer for that. Does the fact that they didn't mean they "deserved" to have 400+ villages

destroyed and have nearly 800,000 refugees created?

[Vegasaurus]

35. Israel is not controlled by "generals of war" or military

I posted last week some sixty accomplishments, including medical and technological, many of which we all use daily (like cell phones and computers) that Israelis have developed, all while being bombarded by terrorists and wars.

Israel has accomplished more than any nation on earth in 60 years.

All the while, while trying to protect itself from those who wish to annihilate it.

That's amazing.

[pelsar]

54. heres the problem...

whether or not the Palestinians feel there is genocide going on, starvation, nazi style camps, ghettos, massacres etc.....its not.

a story: a couple of years ago some IDF soldiers wrote some numbers on the arms, in marker, on the Palestinians that were arrested (for ID purposes). There was an outcry in israel as it reminded many of the numbers tattooed on the arms of concentration camp inmates. The point is israel is rather sensitive to the issue of connecting the actions of its soldiers and that of the nazis....


so when we read about the israeli nazi style soldiers...its not some "sadistic uneducated moron from an outlying failed town"...it would be a paratrooper from N.Tel Aviv, educated, smart...the kind of kid we're proud of....and if hes acting like a nazi, that means we all are.

that means i'm part of the genocide, my son will be and my daughter as well......
___________

its has nothing to do with Palestinian will to survive etc....they can do that without the false accusations, it may make them feel good, it may be cultural, but in fact they have little basis in reality and they certainly lose my sympathy claiming that i am causing genocide....

[ProgressiveMuslim]

56. Here's the thing Pelsar: scholars disagree about whether genocide has taken place.

Israeli scholars make that contention.

Your not wanting to be part of something heinous doesn't mean something heinous isn't going on.

When you do your reserve service, you are part and parcel of the occupation machine.

-----------------

I'm sorry that you can't hear what I'm trying to suggest with the other discussion. It's sort of like my saying: Israel has the 4th largest army on the planet, with nukes to boot. You have no need to feel afraid.

Factually, that's true. But the *feeling* of fear remains. And it's the feeling, not the fact, that seems to guide Isareli policy. There is value in understanding how Jews *feel*, even though the facts don't support the feeling.

[pelsar]

66. We are part of the occupation....us israelis

there is almost no protests against it these days, since intifada II and gaza (just to make sure that its clear)

......do we have a need to be afraid?...no, not afraid, but not stupid either. One of the lessons of the 73 war was arrogance, that lesson was learned. When irans president says we're going to wipe israel off the map (or whatever the variation) when hizballa makes it clear that its attacking israel because it exists, when hamas says it wants all of israel, etc...none of those words are to be taken lightly: They may be extremists, but they are extremists with power. (as are the taliban today). Shooting missiles on our cities daily is hardly a resistance....its more like daily attempts at murder

so its more than just a feeling or an emotional Knee jerk reaction. Israel has infact been attacked with the intent to destroying it, its citizens killed just for being israeli, Blood libels continue with no let up (even the classic jews needing muslim/christian blood can been seen in saudi arabia today....).....amazing but it still goes on.

When my kids came back from poland and saw the camps....what impressed them was how close the camps were to polish cities...how could they not know, they asked?...Well, because israel is a citizens army, many of us do have a good idea what is going on in the westbank...and i can assure you no Palestinian kid is starving, Palestinians arent be asked to dig graves and then being shot in the head, no gas chambers, no families are being lined up against a wall and shot, no planes are dropping gas on hebron or bethleham, no artillery is bombardment in nabulus.....

in fact as my jeep drove by....the group of Palestinians by the garage barely even looked up...we were just another vehicle passing by....the occupation is hardly a "nice thing"...but that is a long way from committing genocide.

though i may understand its use...ultimately using exaggerations, fear etc to gain support only increases the resistance from the other side....its dehumanizing no matter which side uses it.

a footnote: israel has the 30th largest army:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_size_of_armed_forces

[ProgressiveMuslim]

77. "...i can assure you no Palestinian kid is starving..."

If you think that Palestinian children aren't going to bed HUNGRY you are living in la la land.

Israel's tyranny is not Hitler's extermination; I've never claimed it was. Occupation is not simply "not nice." Let's call a spade a spade. The 40+ year enterprise -- characterized by murders, torture, land theft, mass jailing without charge or trial, siege, humiliation, destruction of families, denial of movement, denial of education, denial of self-determination -- is evil.

Just because some boys are used to the banality of the evil of occupation doesn't change its character.

You choose to implement evil. Sorry dude, but there you have it. YOu don't even have to do it -- you know better, and you choose to do it. You stand with your gun, lord of the land, over people who've lived there for 1000s of years.

[pelsar]

90. it is my choice....no question about it ....

hizballa just took over lebanon, in case you missed the news (they have veto power over any govt decision....) and in case you've forgotten they shot thousands of missiles in to israel, after they crossed the border and killed some israelis....they, like hamas have made their goals clear. Are they going for the westbank?....of course.

i agree the occupation is evil....let there be no mistake about it.....(characterized by murders, torture, land theft, mass jailing without charge or trial, siege, humiliation, destruction of families, denial of movement, denial of education, denial of self-determination).

and no its doesnt make me feel comfortable, i always preferred the borders of lebanon, egypt, jordan than being within gaza or the westbank (intifada I made me feel like "darth vader"-which was why i was glad of oslo and the beginning of us getting out....)


unfortunately, we discovered, there are even worse things: characterized by suicide bombers targeting civilians anywhere, any time, from babies to even holocaust survivors, denial of existence, denial of the right to exist, denial of the right to self-determination. and continual attacks be they against jews and or israelis as a constant factor since pre48.

you would have a case if all of this started post 67...but it didnt did it? ....like you said, lets call a "spade a spade".

______

once that is done, the discussion can move on as to what both sides can do to remove the very real fear that each side has. Some of that fear will have a very real reason to exist, some may be irrational, but it doesnt make it any less real....

the worst part about gaza from a political point of view?...was that Netanyho and the guys on the right were correct in their prediction of what would happen..... missiles on our cities....

one of the most confusing parts is the Palestinian "all or nothing" policy. What is the "all?" 48 borders, UN partian borders, no jews allowed, 67 borders, 67 borders adjusted?..which?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

98. Pelsar *I* was correct in predicting what would happen in Gaza.

Anyone with 2 brain cells saw that coming. Wasn't that the point? Create chaos in Gaza so it would never be repeated in the WB?

Can you look me in the cyber eye, and say that had you been in place of the Palestinian people pre-48, you would have behaved differently? C'mon Pelsar. Put yourself in someone else's shoes!!! You would honestly fork over your land to a bunch of European new-comers?? That's bullshit! There is not one person on this thread who would not have fought! Not one American wouldn't fight to preserve his land -- not one!! I find the expectation that indigenous Palestinians should gladly fork over their (best!!) land to a bunch of newcomers so inherently racist that it boggles my mind. Why should they have done that? Because they are brown and the Jews were white? They were smarter? They were more civilized? They would have used it "better?"

Those "even worse" things you describe are only "worse" because you experience them. I don't think those things hold a candle to what you've put Palestinians through. "Deny your existence?" What other nation has ever asked that it's right to existence be recognized. It's absurd!

Truthfully, I don't see how this moves forward. I think the kids in Gaza now, will never see Israelis as anything but monsters. I don't think Israeli citizens have the will to stop the WB occupation/settlement machine. I see a long history where Israeli is increasingly a jailkeeper. I predict many more years of minor skirmishes and increased apartheid on the WB. Soon the prisoners will outnumber the jailers. I predict major damange on an Israeli city, followed by true genocide in Gaza. Ultimately, they will either kill you, or you will kill them. Most likely the latter.

[Vegasaurus]

99. So much for peaceful coexistence nt

[pelsar]

103. who actually fought in 48?

it actually was very few of the Local Arabs....the ironic thing being that (numbers unknown) many of themselves were immigrants to the land. Two sides to your question, one is the reality of people, who for the most part are concerned with personal security and making a living...and the pride of identity and nationalism.

Lets leave out the hyperbole here for a minute....

first some hard facts: Most of the arabs in palestine did not "rise up and fight the invaders"...In many areas they had good relations with their new neighbors who employed them. It was the Syrians, Egyptians Jordanians, iraqis etc that did the fighting...very little from the locals... (and i doubt syrian, egypt and jordan had plans of setting up a Palestinian state).

so much for the theory of the Palestinians "rising up against the invader"..

Point 2; Palestinians nationalism/identity came about with arafat in 65. They had been occupied previous to that with no national identity....the incoming jews were just another version of those "occupiers". Did the locals fight the Brits before? the turks? etc....the answer again.....a cold hard fact is no.
__________________

I find you opinion of the gazans to be pretty low. The only ones who made chaos out of gaza was the Palestinians themselves. its been their choice (pick your favorite group) that chose to continuously attack israel-except for when israel pulled out, not a single attack happened during the process. Proof of control when they want to.

You say it was a "trap"...well didnt the Gazans see it coming?..Anyone with 2 brain cells saw that coming...i do believe they have more than 2 brain cells, so why did they fall for it?

There is no question that its much worse now, before by working in israel, the gazans and israelis got to know each other as people...that is no longer true.

the future?....i 'm rather pessimistic as you are, though i doubt a true genocide....but an escalation probably (which means bigger bombs.....)

do you really see the Palestinians as being so helpless vis a vis the israel/US?.....do you really think the Palestinians in gaza simply has absolutely no possible way of developing a society that was not based on attacking israel..or were they simply helpless people with "less than 2 brains cells"

[pelsar]

109. some corrections to be made..

been doing some reading..thanks to PM

http://cosmos.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/php/timeline.php?option=listAllEvents

seems there was a greater Palestinians identity than i realized pre 48...

[cali]

5. I didn't say he wasn't. I commented on the failures and errors

of his opinion piece. I'm certainly not suggesting that he's not a man who shouldn't be looked to and negotiated with. But then I support negotiations with Hamas.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

8. Ok. I misunderstood your focus on a small point.

[aranthus]

37. Unfortunately, you're probably right about that.

Which confirms what the Israeli Right has been saying; that the Palestinians are not yet serious about making peace with Israel. Of course, they want peace. Who doesn't. But they haven't made peace with Israel, either the Jewish state's actual existence, or the right of the Jews to a state of their own. You've said elsewhere that the Palestinians have taken responsibility for terrorist attacks, but that they see them differently. What appears is that the Palestinians either take credit for terrorist attacks, or else they critique them sometimes as not tactically helpful. What they don't do, is declare that terrorist attacks are morally wrong. What they don't do is consider whether their war against Israel's existence is unjustified. They don't even take responsibility for starting the war in 1947, even though the historical evidence of it is manifest. Instead, they want Israel to make peace as if the Arab attack was justified, without even admitting that there was an Arab attack.

On the Israeli side, there is at least an appreciation of the Palestinian condition. There are Israeli and Jewish scholars and journalists who take a pro-Palestinian (many would say anti-Israel) view. People like Neve Gordon, Ilan Pappe, Avi Schlaim, Norman Finkelstein, and many others. Even Benny Morris recognizes that at least some Palestinians were forcibly moved during the 47-49 war. Where is the acceptance of any culpability on the part of the Palestinians by a Palestinian of similar stature? It doesn't exist. If it does, please tell me where?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

40. Occupation is morally wrong. It's a crime against humanity.

I am dumbfounded that you expect Israel's victims to call their attempt to survive "a war on Israel's existence."

Honestly, I think you Israel-only folks have lost your minds.

Palestinians will never submit to Israeli tyranny.

Israel can make peace now, or become ghettomasters of 4 million, and potentially face a future bloodbath.

[Vegasaurus]

41. Hamas has made it clear that they will never agree to an Israel

So who is there to make peace with?

They claim nothing Israel does makes any difference, because the goal isn't peace, it is taking over all of Israel and turning it into yet another Muslim theocracy.

Ghettomaster for 4 million isn't a great option, but Hamas is leaving very few choices.

In fact, Hamas is hankering for that bloodbath.

[aranthus]

43. This is what I'm talking about.

According to you, the Palestinians are 100% victims, with no culpability for their situation at all. You claim that the Palestinians are fighting to survive, but there is no evidence that the Jews were going to attack them in the first place. I can't even get you to admit what the whole world knows; that the Palestinian Arabs attacked first in 1947. What occupation were the Arabs fighting when they rioted after the passage of the Partition Resolution? What Israeli tyranny existed in January, 1948, when the Palestinian guerrilla army began to attack Jewish settlements? Even if you think that the Palestinians were justified in fighting, at least admit that they started the fighting. That would at least give your position some credibility.

How can you claim that the war is not one over Israel's existence, when the PLO Charter, the Hamas Charter, and countless Palestinian and Arab leaders have declared over and over for decades that that is exactly what it is? Get serious.

[Vegasaurus]

44. That is the answer I have been waiting for for the whole time I have posted here

The anti-Israel types keep saying the Palestinian resistance is in response to the occupation,and that if the occupation ends, there will be no more violence, and everyone will live happily ever after.

I keep pointing out that there was violence long before an occupation. The various charters and constant anti-Israel rhetoric from the Palestinian leadership indicate that the terrorism isn't going to stop, as long as Israel exists.

Why do some of you here not believe the very words they say all the time?

The terrorism and violence ISN'T ABOUT THE OCCUPATION!

It's about ISRAEL, the state, which the Palestinians want to see obliterated.

It's time for some honesty, once and for all.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

45. Charter is just words. How in the name of God can you claim israel is interested in peace when they

expand settlements daily?

Do you honestly see Israel as a victim of Palestine?

Are you kidding me?

[aranthus]

47. Who started the war? n/t

[ProgressiveMuslim]

57. Duh. The nascent state of Israel. nt

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[aranthus]

63. Which is why there is no peace. n/t

[ProgressiveMuslim]

65. Plan Dalet was a pretty clear declaration of war. nt

[aranthus]

67. If you seriously believe this, then you're totally deluded.

How could a war plan which was:

1. largely defensive in nature
2. not implemented until well after the war started;
3. not going to be used except that the Arabs started the war; and
4. kept secret from the Arabs

POSSIBLY BE A DECLARATION OF WAR? What, the Arabs fired the first shots in November, 1947, because the Jews were planning to defend themselves? How does an Israeli plan that the Arabs didn't even know about come to be a declaration of war?

I do not understand the inability of the Arabs and their supporters to accept historical facts which reflect negatively on them. The Arabs fired the first shot. Deal with it. Trying to deny facts so well proven only damages the credibility of your entire position, and makes it look like you aren't serious about peace. Which is why there isn't any.

[Vegasaurus]

69. It's all part of the "woe is me", poor pitiful Palestinian

victims, never did anything wrong, meme.

They (and their sponsors and supporters) never accept responsibility for anything!

Talk about revistionist history!

Who accepted the partition plan? The Jews!

Who started war after war? The Arabs!

[ProgressiveMuslim]

78. How would you characterize Plan Dalet? FCOL, your own historians

tell the truth?

Can't you just admit it??? It was a fucking planned land grab, so that when the state was declared there'd be more Jewish territory.

It's absurd to expect that Arabs would have been happy to hand over half their land, when Jewish population owned 7%, and made up 35% of the population. It's insane to expect that.

[aranthus]

83. Plan Dalet

as has already been posted, was a defense plan that was developed because it appeared that the Arabs were going to attack the Jews, probably before the British evacuated Palestine. The plan itself states that it is not intended as a means of permanently occupying land outside the original boundaries of the Jewish state. It was about securing the new state, not grabbing land. Please consider the following points:

1. Dalet was not a plan for initiating war, because the Jews did not intend to start one (they weren't sure that they could win, and losing meant extermination).

2. Dalet wasn't finalized and put into operation until April, 1948, five months after the war started.

3. The Arabs didn't know about Dalet until after the war, so how could they have started the war because they thought that it was a land grab?

4. It's absurd to think that the Jews would just take Arab attacks and not go on the counter-offensive.

5. The Arabs of Palestine set the terms of the war; all or nothing. They were the ones who started the war to drive out the Jews, not the other way around.

6. The plan certainly gave commanders in the field the leeway to move hostile strategic villages. And in many cases that was done. That doesn't make it a land grab, nor does it mean that the Israelis planned all along to start a war to drive out the Arabs.

Your last sentence seems to be intended to justify the Arab attack against the Jews. Before you start trying to justify it, you first need to admit that that is what happened.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

107. Check this timeline. You don't see massive land grabs PRIOR to the declaration of the state??

C'mon. Do any serious historians share you view... besides Joan Peters?

http://cosmos.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/php/timeline.php?option=listAllEvents

[aranthus]

108. I don't see any land grab before the Arabs started the war.

Even if your website was credible (and it is hopelessly one sided), you still haven't addressed the fundamental issue. Most reputable historians cite the Arabs as starting the war on November 30, 1947, the day after the Partition Resolution was passed. See, Benny Morris, and also Elusive Victory by Trevor Dupuy, and the works of Efraim Kharsh, among others. The most that I have seen Arab historians do is ignore the issue, as if the war just started. I'm focusing on whether we can agree on even one simple fact; who fired the first shots. If you want to try and justify the Arab attack on the Jews, that's fine; we can talk about that. But at least admit that the Arabs attacked first and then try and justify it.

[Shaktimaan]

95. So it is reasonable to expect them to start a war?

Let me get this straight... Even though half of the Jewish half was desert... even though 70-something percent of Palestine had already been sectioned off to become an Arab state from the get go... even though the Partition Plan was only invented in the first place because of a Palestinian refusal to share the land with Jewish immigrants... even though Israel required the additional room to allow for a large influx of Holocaust refugees (among others)... and even though there already existed massively vast expanses of Arab land compared to only around 5000 square miles proposed for Israel, you think that the UN agreement was so unreasonable that the only RATIONAL course of action was for the Palestinians to start a WAR with the expressed intent of driving out 35% of the population?

And to expect otherwise is "insane?"

BTW, so the Jews only owned 7% as opposed to the Arab 13%, yet you refer to the whole thing as "half of their (Arab) land." I think the cause of the war is evident in that very sentence. It didn't matter if Israel was only proposed to be on 5% of the land, it would still have led to war because the Palestinians saw it as entirely THEIR land. Just as many still do.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

106. It was their land. I can't believe the mental gymnastics you go through to deny that. nt

[Shaktimaan]

111. why? np

[msmcghee]

68. Plan Delet was a military plan for removing civilians from cities . .

. . along the front that would form from the invasion by the various Arab Armies. It was to gain control of areas through which the IDF expected attack and also to eliminate the possibility of a fifth column developing at the IDF's rear. It was nothing close to a declaration of war because, like all military plans, its existence was not even known to the Arabs until after the war.

Pappe and Khalidi and others have of course deceptively claimed that it was a plan to conquer Palestine.

[azurnoir]

70. Others were also deceptive

as in Benny Morris?


Benny Morris gives the following interpretation:
The essence of the plan was the clearing of hostile and potentially hostile forces out of the interior of the territory of the prospective Jewish State, establishing territorial continuity between the major concentrations of Jewish population and securing the future State's borders before, and in anticipation of, the invasion . The Haganah regarded almost all the villages as actively or potentially hostile<1>
constituted a strategic-doctrinal and carte blanche for expulsions by front, brigade, district and battalion commanders (who in each case argued military necessity) and it gave commanders, post facto, formal, persuasive cover for their actions.<2>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet

[Vegasaurus]

71. FACTS

The chairman of the Arab Higher Committee said the Arabs would "fight for every inch of their country." Two days later, the holy men of Al-Azhar University in Cairo called on the Muslim world to proclaim a jihad (holy war) against the Jews. Jamal Husseini, the Arab Higher Committee's spokesman, had told the UN prior to the partition vote the Arabs would drench "the soil of our beloved country with the last drop of our blood . . . ."

Husseini's prediction began to come true almost immediately after the UN announced partition resolution on November 29, 1947. The Arabs declared a protest strike and instigated riots that claimed the lives of 62 Jews and 32 Arabs. Violence continued to escalate through the end of the year

The first large-scale assaults began on January 9, 1948, when approximately 1,000 Arabs attacked Jewish communities in northern Palestine. By February, the British said so many Arabs had infiltrated they lacked the forces to run them back. In fact, the British turned over bases and arms to Arab irregulars and the Arab Legion.

In the first phase of the war, lasting from November 29, 1947 until April 1, 1948, the Palestinian Arabs took the offensive, with help from volunteers from neighboring countries. The Jews suffered severe casualties and passage along most of their major roadways was disrupted.

On April 26, 1948, Transjordan's King Abdullah said:
ll our efforts to find a peaceful solution to the Palestine problem have failed. The only way left for us is war. I will have the pleasure and honor to save Palestine.

On May 4, 1948, the Arab Legion attacked Kfar Etzion. The defenders drove them back, but the Legion returned a week later. After two days, the ill-equipped and outnumbered settlers were overwhelmed. Many defenders were massacred after they had surrendered. This was prior to the invasion by the regular Arab armies that followed Israel's declaration of independence.

The Arabs were blunt in taking responsibility for starting the war. Jamal Husseini told the Security Council on April 16, 1948:

"The representative of the Jewish Agency told us yesterday that they were not the attackers, that the Arabs had begun the fighting. We did not deny this. We told the whole world that we were going to fight."

The British commander of Jordan's Arab Legion, John Bagot Glubb admitted:

"Early in January, the first detachments of the Arab Liberation Army began to infiltrate into Palestine from Syria. Some came through Jordan and even through Amman . . . They were in reality to strike the first blow in the ruin of the Arabs of Palestine."


The partition resolution was never suspended or rescinded. Thus, Israel, the Jewish State in Palestine, was born on May 14, as the British finally left the country. Five Arab armies (Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq) immediately invaded Israel. Their intentions were declared by Azzam Pasha, Secretary-General of the Arab League: "This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades."

[aranthus]

73. Now THIS is a declaration of war

From Azzam Pasha, Secretary-General of the Arab League: "This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades."

And this is one of the most damning, and therefore most ignored, admissions by any Arab leader, ever: "The representative of the Jewish Agency told us yesterday that they were not the attackers, that the Arabs had begun the fighting. We did not deny this. We told the whole world that we were going to fight."

I'm constantly amazed at the reality gap.

[azurnoir]

76. That one quote must be worthit's weight

in platinum to propagandists, doncha' think?

[aranthus]

82. How are these quotes "propaganda?"

Do you have evidence that Azzam and Husseini did not say what they did? Do you have evidence that they didn't mean it? Do you have evidence that taken in context, that they mean something very different from the bare statements? The Husseini quote, especially, sets the record straight, doesn't it? Isn't it an admission that the Arabs started the fighting? Don't you think that it's unreasonable to simply dismiss these quotes as propaganda?

[azurnoir]

84. Something does not have to be untrue to be propaganda

it only has to repeated as if it was the ultimate truth and only thing worth citing. It is like repeating Bibi saying that he would not honor any peace deal; made if elected as if it were the opinion of the entire Israeli government.

[msmcghee]

85. OK - I get it now.

Anything that makes the Palestinians appear to be moral and honorable victims of Israel - and that makes the Israelis appear to be war criminals - is not propaganda, no matter how far from reality it is.

Anything that makes the Israelis appear to be moral and honorable victims of Palestinian aggression - and that makes the Palestinians appear to be war criminals for attacking Israeli civilians - is propaganda, no mater how factually correct it is.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[azurnoir]

87. that is not what I said but do spin on n/t

[pelsar]

92. if an intention is stated...

and then is attempted to be carried out....its not propaganda nor is "untrue".....its merely a historical fact....and it can be repeated 1,000 times....and it doesnt change the fact that its true.

which part is "untrue"

the stated intention?

the action based on that intention?

[azurnoir]

93. When a quote or action

from 60 years ago or even one year ago (Hamas throwing a Fatah member off of a building) is repeated as though it was the defining action or the only thing one needs to know about a group of people, then yes it does become propaganda IMHO

[pelsar]

96. and when its a leader?

as in Secretary-General of the Arab League?

is repeated as though it was the defining action

so let me clarify...you dont like using his quote as any kind of proof of intent, because its too simplistic?

do you apply this to all quotes from the various leaders from all sides of the conflict?...even when the subsequent actions bear them out? (i assume you want to be consistent)

[azurnoir]

100. Should Bibis quote about

not honoring any peace deals be taken as intent? Then is it an excuse for Hamas or any other group to attack Israel?
Anything any leader says , no obviously not, but when a single quote is repeated as justification for action especially military action, then yes it is another example would be Bushes "bring it on".

[aranthus]

102. It's not that simple.

First of all I'm sure the Bibi quote does get used that way, even though he isn't in the government. Unlike Azzam, who was the Secretary General of the Arab League, or Huseinni, who was speaking as the official representative of the AHC to the UN.

Second of all, sometimes a quote is conclusive evidence of an ultimate fact. That's why I asked you about context.

Third, even if not conclusive by itself, a quote can be representative of the ultimate truth. The Azzam quote by itself might not be conclusive evidence that the Arabs were planning to massacre the Jews (or it might), but given all the statements to the same effect by other Arab leaders, it is representative of that ultimate truth. The Huseinni quote is an admission that the Arabs started the fighting which is backed up by the historical record.

Given that the Palestinians and their supporters (including on this board) continue to deny these ultimate truths (without evidence), then I think the use of these quotes is entirely valid, and not at all propaganda.

[Vegasaurus]

105. There is almost constant denying of ultimate truths

which I don't think has helped the Palestinians in the long run.

The best thing that could happen for them is to get a leader who has the foresight to look ahead, not back, and work to get a state for its people, not the demolition of the state of another people.

The sooner the Palestinians and their supporters face some ultimate truths, the sooner their lives will improve.

Considering that they have been living in the past for 60 years, wallowing in self pity and victimhood, never able to take responsibility for even a small part of the awful circumstances in which they find themselves, becoming a little honest could begin the process of reducing the misery for the Palestinians.

[azurnoir]

110. Ultimate truths

by who's word, yours? Palestinians are living in the present, a present where freedom and property are taken from them on almost a daily basis. As far as wallowing in the past, remember that the next time the Holocaust is trotted out, IMHO those that feel they some superiority because of their parents and grandparents suffering dis honor those parents and grandparents.

[azurnoir]

75. More uncited "facts"

I see an about to be edited wiki page, oops I saved the entire original.

[azurnoir]

91. Same quote by two different people twice in one thread

definitely worth its weight in platinum.

[aranthus]

104. I think that you are misinterpreting

the two posts. I posted the quote again not for propaganda effect, but to point out the absurdity of Progressive's claim that Plan Dalet was a declaration of war. The distinction I was drawing was between a military plan which was never declared, and an actual declaration. That's not propaganda; it's argument.

[msmcghee]

72. I fail to see deception in that account. n/t

[Vegasaurus]

9. The sooner the Palestinians start to live in the here and now

as opposed to 60 years ago, the sooner their lives will improve.

Pieces like this one do nothing to advance their cause.

It makes them sound like a bunch of whiners and losers and liars.

If they truly want to have a state of their own (and I am doubtful that that is their goal, unless that state is another Muslim theocracy, with no Jews; ie. taking over all of Israel), they would be best not to have this "moderate", or any like him, passing off falsehoods and untruths.

It just doesn't help the Palestinians at all.

[cali]

12. Look, I've made my criticism of Barghouti's piece clear but

it's absurd to claim that the Palestinians are only living in the past. They're suffering in the here and now is clearly a big part of their "living in the past". And a good part of their suffering is due to Israeli actions. Do you honestly believe that the Settlements aren't a huge cause of Palestinian suffering?

Barghouti sacrificed a larger truth for pettiness in this piece, but blaming Palestinian suffering solely on the Palestinians is callous garbage. Furthermore, Barghouti is seen as a Palestinian leader and voice for the Palestinians by many, many Palestinians. It's just arrogant to think that the Israelis should be able to choose who should represent Palestinians.

[Vegasaurus]

15. The Palestinians can choose whoever they want

to represent them.

Barghouti may be better than Hamas (there's an understatement), but speaking in untruths and hyperboles doesn't help his people.

The Palestinians are in dire need of a leader who will recognize the facts (that Israel is here to stay, and isn't going to be annihilated as Hamas wishes).

Their suffering is in the here and now, but in no small part due to their crappy leadership.

Had they a leader who would actually forego violence and terrorism (including the blowing up of their own food and fuel trucks), the suffering of the Palestinians would be relieved, because the siege would be lifted.

Place the blame on the leadership, for causing at least a good part of the suffering of the civilians.

[cali]

18. I have no problem placing part of the blame on Palestinian leadership

do you have a problem acknowledging that a good part of the problem are Israeli actions and positions? I won't get into who's more responsible. I'm just curious if you recognize that Israel is perpetrating injustices against the Palestinians.

[LeftishBrit]

20. While Barghouti may well be the best hope for the Palestinians at the moment...

this article spoils its effect by exaggerated anti-Israel exceptionalism. Israel has not carried out 'the longest occupation in history' - what about China's occupation of Tibet, or the British and other Empires' occupation of many colonies over long periods - sometimes centuries. 'The worst apartheid' - what about countries that practiced slavery, for example? 'The fastest ethnic cleansing' - what about the Partition of India and Pakistan (to give just one example from almost exactly the same time as the creation of Israel)?

No, it does NOT excuse a country for immoral actions if 'everyone else did it too'; but implying that Israel is worse than anywhere else has ever been makes it more difficult to take the author's more genuine claims seriously..

[cali]

21. You said it better than I did.

I found the article fascinating because of the flirtation with propaganda and the myopia exhibited by its author. It's such a small piece of writing- and such a missed opportunity.

[pelsar]

52. but there is a reason why he's doing it....

it was a carefully researched and written article.....by the "best hope" that the Palestinians have today.

there is a culture gap going on here...

[Violet_Crumble]

25. To be fair...

When he was talking about occupations he said 'the longest occupation in modern history, though of course it's all in the eye of the beholder where modern history starts (I once did a history course called 'Europe in the Modern Era' only to find out that the course started with the Middle Ages)...

I think there does seem to be a tendency from those on both sides who are being affected by the I/P conflict to view what's happened or is happening to them as the *worst*, and I guess that's cause they're directly affected by the I/P conflict while *worse* things around the world (two examples would be South Africa when it comes to apartheid and Sri Lanka or Iraq when it comes to suicide bombings) don't affect them and fade into the background. Not making an excuse for it when it's done by either Palestinians or Israelis, but that's why I think it happens...

on edit: My two cents(AU) worth on Hummus. I don't know where all this nonsense about it being a Middle Eastern creation is coming from. Frankly I'm sick and tired of watching both Israel and the Palestinians try to make out it's some national dish of theirs when everybody knows it was invented by the swarthy woman with a mole on her chin down at Ali Baba's in Garema Place!! ;)

[ProgressiveMuslim]

31. So the only real response to Barghouti's piece is..

he takes it too far?

[cali]

38. when you portray Israel as exceptional in its actions,

as the greatest evil in the last 60 years, you're diluting your message. Yes, of course, "taking it too far" is counterproductive. Using flat out lies is counterproductive. It's as ridiculous as those who portray Israel as this ideal country that never committed a bad act.

[pelsar]

49. the jist of the problem...on the DU-a theory

is perception vs hard cold facts.....

and I believe this is the heart of it. Many here, including myself keep arguing that there is no genocide massacres etc, others argue of the "extreme genocide." daily massacres, starvation etc.

the hard cold facts dont bear out the "starving", dont bear out the genocide nor are there daily massacres...yet the accusations keep on coming...even from arab israelis in the knesset. I admit it drives me nuts....

and here on the DU when those who claim of the starving kids in gaza are asked for proof.....it never comes. (But what does come is a UN report telling of malnutrition. Well isnt it obvious that malnutrition is not starving?....so what gives?

___________

its perception vs facts. There is the perception of genocide, starving, massacres etc. That perception is every bit real to those who are claiming it as are the actual facts which dont bear out the starvation claim, etc

___

this will explain the frustration for those who are on the other side and dont understand how perception can be taken as facts. I in fact have trouble understanding it.....but it should be obvious that it exists.

[notfullofit]

50. I believe it

is known as propaganda.
If you can't win one way, any way will do.

[msmcghee]

51. I believe it shows the ability of . .

. . emotionally powerful identity beliefs to overcome reason in one's mind.

[Vegasaurus]

53. I think what bothers me

is the hyperbole, double standards, lies, etc. that have been refuted time and time again, and people still believe that crap.

Israel shouldn't keep expanding settlements, and has its own internal frictions.

But it is not practicing genocide, is not starving anyone, etc.

There are plenty of countries in the world that are doing those things, but Israel isn't one of them.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

58. Pot meet kettle. Why does the nation with the 4th largest army in the world (and nukes)

talk about being under "existential threat" all the time.

Talk about perception being divorced from reality!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[notfullofit]

60. If a

rocket whizzed past my house and landed in my back yard just missing killing my kids, I'd say I was being 'threatened'.
And if I did nothing to try to stop it, I'd say I was being stupid.

Israeli civilians are being 'threatened' every day.

And NO I do NOT blame the Palestinian people (just to be clear).

[Vegasaurus]

62. I think some people here

believe that rockets whizzing around past or on your house is just fine.

No threat there. Just move along.

They honestly believe that the rockets are "pesky nuisances" , no big deal, and need no response.

Any response is considered belligerent.

NO OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD would be expected to have rockets rain on them every day and do nothing.

Except Israel is expected to put up with it, that it isn't any threat.

Bullshit.

[azurnoir]

74. People on DU EXPECT Israel to take rockets and do nothing

yada yada yammer yammer on and on, nice so show me a comment where it says that, no not one you claim means that.

Now in turn about; it could easily be said that Israel expects the Palestinians to take land appropriation, detainment, blockades, olive groves being uprooted, home demolitions, and sit quietly.

That and oh yeah wasn't Israel celebrating the Nakba recently?

The same hyperbole you regularly post can be turned around on you easily, but why bother with either? It has all been said, why unless the purpose id purely that of spreading propaganda?

[Vegasaurus]

81. Do you think that Israel should retaliate for the daily rockets? nt

[azurnoir]

89. Seeing as how anything I write short

of storm in and kill as many terrorists as possible ( note in this case the definition of terrorist is loose to say the least), will be spun as do nothing, they could try negotiation, they could even try offer to reopen crossings and allow fuel and food in exchange for stopping the rockets or even those shooting them

[ProgressiveMuslim]

64. Here's a question for you:

Do you think those attacks are launched because Gazans are blood thirsty-Jew-haters who will always behave thusly, or do you think they are part of a struggle against Israel's hegemony?

[notfullofit]

79. I do not

believe Gazans are bloodthirsty Jew haters, only Hamas.

[Vegasaurus]

80. and Islamic Jihad, and the Al Asqua Brigades, and a lot of members of the PA

and the various other splinter militant or tribal groups, and even some religious leaders who claim that all of israel belongs to Palestine and nothing the Jews do makes any difference.

It's probably a minority that are not Jew haters, just based on all the surveys and polls, of Palestinians who support mass violence against Israelis.

[notfullofit]

94. And the

list goes on.........

[azurnoir]

101. So in a round about way

what is being said here is that all Palestinian groups are terrorist? Name one that is not if that is not the meaning.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

59. And through it all--murder, land theft, mass jailing, mass curfew, restriction of movement, etc.

they remain.