Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Poll: Most Jews feel connection to Hebron

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Israel/Palestine Donate to DU
 
Mosby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-08 01:12 PM
Original message
Poll: Most Jews feel connection to Hebron
A poll conducted on the heels of the recent eviction of the disputed house in Hebron has revealed that the majority of Israelis, including 61% of the secular population, have some emotional attachment to one of Judaism's four holiest cities.

The survey was conducted for Ynet and the Gesher Institute by the Panels Institute, and included 500 respondents that are a representative sample of the adult Jewish population in the country. The margin of error is 4.5%.

snip

The poll indicated that secular and religious Jews alike believe that the acts of revenge against Palestinians in Hebron that followed the eviction were criminal and contradicted Judaism's values

Regarding the acts of violence against Arab residents of Hebron following the eviction, 52% of individuals surveyed said "they were just criminals, and this has no relation to Judaism," and 33% claimed that the behavior was antithetical to Judaism.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3637504,00.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-08 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
1. glad to see that many Israelis feel the disgusting behavior of the
Settlers in Hebron is unacceptable. I don't see, however, the importance of Israelis feeling some connection to Hebron. What does that have to do with anything? The Israelis don't belong in Hebron. Any of them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mosby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-08 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Hebron is one of the oldest Jewish communities in the world
It's also the site of the Tomb of the Patriarchs. It's not surprising that Jewish Israelis feel a connection to the city given it's long Jewish history.

I don't like the Hebron settlers either, but I do think that Jews should be able to live in or visit Hebron.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-08 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Even if it requires 100,000+ Palestinians to live in apartheid-like conditions? nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-08 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. I hope someone will answer: at what price Hebron? nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-08 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. will Palestinians protect Jews...
..at least as much as Israeli Arabs are protected, should some Jews decide to live in a Palestinian controlled Hebron? Or would W.Bank Palestine adopt Jordan's law that no Jew can ever become a civilian?

And no, to answer your question. That price is obscenely high.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-08 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. So it's worth it to lock up 100,000+ native Arabs so that a couple hundred Jews can have free
Edited on Sun Dec-14-08 08:43 AM by ProgressiveMuslim
reign on Hebron and lord it over the natives.

That is beyond disgusting and racist.

Utterly shameless.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-08 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Jews are not allowed in most of Hebron and 100,000 Arabs are not locked up there
Most of Hebron (H1) is controlled by the PA and the settlers are not allowed to that portion of the city, which is home to the almost all of Hebron's Arab population. That population is not "locked up" in any sense of the phrase.

When you say that Israelis do not belong in Hebron does that include the descendants of those Jews whose families had lived there for generations and who fled or were expelled during the Arab riots in Hebron of 1929?

Hebron is one of the most important cities for the Jewish people. Saying "Israelis do not belong in Hebron" seems very insensitive to that fact.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-08 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. I never said Israelis don't belong in Hebron.
I said the presence of the settlers creates living conditions for 100,000+ Arabs that are beyond onerous.

Creating those conditions in order to accommodate the violent settlers is unconscionable.

Would you dispute that?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-08 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Sorry - that was another poster, I do not dispute your point
I think that the settlers should be evacuated and that Hebron should be completely under Palestinian control.

However, I believe that Israelis should have access to the holy Jewish sites in that city, and should be able to safely visit those locations.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-15-08 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #14
31. See B'tselem on devastating effect of Jewish settlers in Hebron.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-08 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. did you read my last sentence?
Edited on Sun Dec-14-08 09:08 AM by shira
i answered your question. you didn't answer mine.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-08 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. Privilege of the conquistador I guess?
but the post you replied does show true intention at least according to Israels supports.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-08 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Absa-f'ing-lutely. Lots of true intentions showing these days. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-08 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. The so-called "patriarchs" are a myth
The whole fraking bible is a myth!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-08 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. It doesn't matter if it's a myth
that doesn't change the reality of strong emotions and beliefs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-13-08 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Religion is a private affair, as Lenin said
Edited on Sat Dec-13-08 09:35 PM by IndianaGreen
but aware of the toxic influence of religion outside of the confines of the home, Lenin added:

Religion must be of no concern to the state, and religious societies must have no connection with governmental authority. Everyone must be absolutely free to profess any religion he pleases, or no religion whatever, i.e., to be an atheist, which every socialist is, as a rule. Discrimination among citizens on account of their religious convictions is wholly intolerable. Even the bare mention of a citizen’s religion in official documents should unquestionably be eliminated. No subsidies should be granted to the established church nor state allowances made to ecclesiastical and religious societies. These should become absolutely free associations of like-minded citizens, associations independent of the state. Only the complete fulfillment of these demands can put an end to the shameful and accursed past when the church lived in feudal dependence on the state, and Russian citizens lived in feudal dependence on the established church, when medieval, inquisitorial laws (to this day remaining in our criminal codes and on our statute-books) were in existence and were applied, persecuting men for their belief or disbelief, violating men’s consciences, and linking cozy government jobs and government-derived incomes with the dispensation of this or that dope by the established church. Complete separation of Church and State is what the socialist proletariat demands of the modern state and the modern church.

V. I. Lenin
Socialism and Religion (1905)


http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/dec/03.htm


The great anarchist writer Mikhail Bakunin had more than a few choice words about the blood-thirsty deity in whose name so many innocents have been oppressed and slaughtered:

The Bible, which is a very interesting and here and there very profound book when considered as one of the oldest surviving manifestations of human wisdom and fancy, expresses this truth very naively in its myth of original sin. Jehovah, who of all the good gods adored by men was certainly the most jealous, the most vain, the most ferocious, the most unjust, the most bloodthirsty, the most despotic, and the most hostile to human dignity and liberty - Jehovah had just created Adam and Eve, to satisfy we know not what caprice; no doubt to while away his time, which must weigh heavy on his hands in his eternal egoistic solitude, or that he might have some new slaves. He generously placed at their disposal the whole earth, with all its fruits and animals, and set but a single limit to this complete enjoyment. He expressly forbade them from touching the fruit of the tree of knowledge. He wished, therefore, that man, destitute of all understanding of himself, should remain an eternal beast, ever on all-fours before the eternal God, his creator and his master. But here steps in Satan, the eternal rebel, the first freethinker and the emancipator of worlds. He makes man ashamed of his bestial ignorance and obedience; he emancipates him, stamps upon his brow the seal of liberty and humanity, in urging him to disobey and eat of the fruit of knowledge.

We know what followed. The good God, whose foresight, which is one of the divine faculties, should have warned him of what would happen, flew into a terrible and ridiculous rage; he cursed Satan, man, and the world created by himself, striking himself so to speak in his own creation, as children do when they get angry; and, not content with smiting our ancestors themselves, he cursed them in all the generations to come, innocent of the crime committed by their forefathers. Our Catholic and Protestant theologians look upon that as very profound and very just, precisely because it is monstrously iniquitous and absurd. Then, remembering that he was not only a God of vengeance and wrath, but also a God of love, after having tormented the existence of a few milliards of poor human beings and condemned them to an eternal hell, he took pity on the rest, and, to save them and reconcile his eternal and divine love with his eternal and divine anger, always greedy for victims and blood, he sent into the world, as an expiatory victim, his only son, that he might be killed by men. That is called the mystery of the Redemption, the basis of all the Christian religions. Still, if the divine Savior had saved the human world! But no; in the paradise promised by Christ, as we know, such being the formal announcement, the elect will number very few. The rest, the immense majority of the generations present and to come, will burn eternally in hell. In the meantime, to console us, God, ever just, ever good, hands over the earth to the government of the Napoleon Thirds, of the William Firsts, of the Ferdinands of Austria, and of the Alexanders of all the Russias.

Such are the absurd tales that are told and the monstrous doctrines that are taught, in the full light of the nineteenth century, in all the public schools of Europe, at the express command of the government. They call this civilizing the people! Is it not plain that all these governments are systematic poisoners, interested stupefies of the masses?

Mikhail Bakunin
God and the State (1871)


http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/bakunin/works/godstate/ch01.htm


The bottom line is that one may choose to believe in whatever idiotic belief set one chooses, but the moment religious mythology becomes one's justification for political acts or government policy, they must be squashed like a bug. We wouldn't think of giving the car keys to someone intoxicated on alcohol, and we shouldn't allow political influence for those intoxicated with the most dangerous drug of all: religion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-08 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. you still miss the point
the reality is that religion and religious beliefs are a huge factor in human affairs. And ignoring reality is no solution for anything.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-08 04:27 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. you can say the same for certain political beliefs...
Edited on Sun Dec-14-08 05:12 AM by pelsar
but the moment religious mythology becomes one's justification for political acts or government policy, they must be squashed like a bug

for instance communism has been show to be a complete failure for a multitude of reasons (amongst them, not taking into account human nature....) yet many people believe in it...as much as any religion

and its used just as any religion to influence people (and we can then talk about atheists, who so strongly believe there is no god, that in fact that becomes a religion.....)
________

as far as hebron goes...so goes the temple mount (for jews or arabs, pick your favorite) of course there are many other religious stones, blocks, bricks, buildings, spread through out the world, and your going to get nowhere by saying group a has no right to its spiritual icons (well it actually depends upon their numbers, political and millitary power)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-08 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. I think the problem with some political beliefs is that they do get imposed theocratically
I use the term 'quasi-theocracy' for states that impose a non-religious ideology in the same doctrinaire and autocratic way as theocracies impose a religion.

And all ideologies become distorted and evil once they are imposed in such a way - whether a religion such as Christianity or Islam, or a political ideology such as Communism. (Fascism is a fundamentally evil ideology in itself, but was made still worse by theocratic imposition.)

As regards the icons of the various religions: as an atheist, I consider it wrong from a human point of view to set these above human welfare and peace. And I think if I were a religious Jew or a Christian, I would consider it as breaking the commandment against worshipping a graven image. But sadly many people of many religions - *three* religions in the case of Jerusalem - seem to consider that these religious icons can justify war and violenc
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-08 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. outstanding point
the politically fundamentalist types are incapable of allowing any facts to influence their viewpoints. these people are just as closed-minded and fanatic as any religous loonytune.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-08 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #8
16. Think of what you called "spiritual icons" as toys being fought over by unruly children
As a parent, I would take the offending toy away from the bickering siblings. We must do the same when it comes to the misnamed "Holy Land." Jerusalem belongs to no one! Claims to the "Holy Land" are equally valid for Muslims, Christians, and Jews. Since they are all equally valid, logically it follows that none of them have a legitimate claim.

Since no one here is of the view that we should remove the population and then nuke the fraking place, the only rational solution is to reject all religious points of view, return Israel to the pre-1967 borders, make Jerusalem an international city under international control, shutdown all religious schools that teach intolerance, and warn religious leaders that if they inflame the populace they will find themselves wearing orange jumpsuit at Guantanamo.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-08 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. good luck...
perhaps try that first in the US.....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-08 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Speaking of USA, religion must not be subsidized with tax breaks
Edited on Sun Dec-14-08 12:03 PM by IndianaGreen
Preaching of intolerant and hateful theologies must be banned (e.g, the we are the "true faith" nonsense). Religious schools must be closed because they are equivalent to child abuse. Pledge of Allegiance must be returned to the original secular pledge. "in God We Trust" must be stripped from the lexicon. The state must be atheist!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-08 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. boy do i disagree....
Preaching of intolerant and hateful theologies must be banned (e.g, the we are the "true faith" nonsense)

given that i think communism is a hateful theology and should be banned from the face of the earth, if not the universe.......so if your going to strip religion of its intollerance then strip fanatical philosophies as well, since i dont see much difference between them.....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-08 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. "You taunt us with disbelieving in God. We charge you with believing in him."
The great anarchist writer Mikhail Bakunin said this about the GAWD concept:

You taunt us with disbelieving in God. We charge you with believing in him. We do not condemn you for this We do not even indict you. We pity you. For the time of illusions is past. We cannot be deceived any longer.

Whom do we find under God's banner? Emperor, kings, the official and the officious world; our lords and our nobles; all the privileged poisons of Europe whose names are recorded in the Almana de Gotha; all the guinea pigs of the industrial, commercial and banking world; the patented professors of our universities; the civil service servants; the low and high police officers; the gendarmes; the gaolers; the headsman or hangman, not forgetting the priests, who are now the black police enslaving our souls to the State; the glorious generals, defenders of the public order; and lastly, the writers of the reptile Press.

This is God's army !

Whom do we find in the camp opposite? The army of revolt; the audacious donors of God and repudiators of all divine and authoritarian principles! These who are therefore, the believers in humanity, the asserters of human liberty.

You reproach us with being Atheists. We do not complain of this. We have no apology to offer. We admit we are. With what pride is allowed to frail individuals-who, like passing waves, rise only to disappear again in the universal ocean of the collective life--we pride ourselves on being Atheists. Atheism is Truth--or, rather the real basis of all Truths.

We do not stoop to consider practical consequences. We want Truth above everything. Truth for all!

God or Labor: The Two Camps

Mikhail Bakunin


http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/bakunin/works/writings/ch09.htm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-08 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. exactly my point...
Edited on Sun Dec-14-08 03:00 PM by pelsar
you quote others just as religious people quote their "saints" and prophets...its one and the same

take a religious christian, jew, moslem etc and they will have the very same reaction to those who reject their version:
We pity you....just as you have quoted

same stuff
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-08 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Except that their religious version has put our planet in great peril
If lives could be saved by destroying every religious myth and icon, I would do so gladly.

Remember those two groups of monks fighting each other at one's of Christianity shrines in Jerusalem about a month ago? The Israeli police should have stayed out and let those motherfrakers kill each other!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-08 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. Got to disagree
Pledge of Allegiance must be returned to the original secular pledge. "in God We Trust" must be stripped from the lexicon. The state must be atheist!

Atheism has it self become if not a "religion" at least a dogma. The state must be stripped of religion and dogma but not necessarily the belief in God the two are not one and the same
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-08 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. The belief in a deity is a personal choice and a private affair, as Lenin said
The state itself must be devoid of all religious trappings and nonsense.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-08 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. oh oh....now were in trouble...
we agree.......
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-14-08 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Twice in one week
Full moon?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Apr 18th 2024, 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Israel/Palestine Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC