Israel Pounds Gaza for Second Day

[tekisui]

Source: Reuters

GAZA (Reuters) - Israel launched air strikes on Gaza for a second successive day on Sunday, piling pressure on Hamas after 229 people were killed in one of the bloodiest 24 hours for Palestinians in 60 years of conflict with the Jewish state.

"Palestine has never seen an uglier massacre," said Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh and his Islamist group, which has controlled the coastal territory since June 2007, vowed revenge including suicide bombings in Israel's "cafes and streets."

Israel bolstered armoured and infantry forces along the Gaza Strip border, and a military spokesman said on Sunday: "The (Gaza) operation is continuous. It is still taking place."

The Jewish state said it was responding to "intolerable" almost daily rocket and mortar fire by Gaza militants that intensified after Hamas ended a six-month cease-fire a week ago.

The militant attacks caused some injuries and Israeli leaders were under pressure to stop them ahead of a February 10 election, which opinion polls show the right-wing opposition Likud party may win.

(snip)

Aid groups said they feared the Israeli operation could fuel a humanitarian crisis in the impoverished coastal enclave, home to 1.5 million Palestinians, half of them dependent on food aid.

Gaza hospitals said they were running out of medical supplies because of an Israeli-led blockade.

http://africa.reuters.com/world/news/usnLS693916.html

[leftchick]

1. sticks and stones vs USA high powered weapons

it sucks

[ProgressiveProfessor]

57. Mortar rounds, Qassams and Grads are not sticks and stones

There has been no commentary one way or the other about manpads, but the Israelis are most likely staying above their envelop

[rundownman]

89. Yeah, they're bottle rockets

notice not even one israeli was killed yet over 500 palestinian civilians have been killed and over a thousand injured.

[MindMatter]

2. Israel getting their "business" out of the way while Bush is still in power

[Bragi]

3. I have two questions, for real

Are the rockets being fired into Israel from Gaza being launched under orders from Hamas, or are they being fired by militants without authorization from Hamas?

Also, given that these rockets almost always fail to cause any damage or casualties, are the attackers actually trying to do damage, or is these some kind of symbolic action?

- B

[THUNDER HANDS]

4. without knowing any facts, I'd say

They're probably loosely coordinated with Hamas. I mean, these people have to get these rockets from somewhere, right?

I think think the rocket attacks TRY to do damage. I think if they had better one's they'd be using them.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

5. If they had better ones and used them their city would be

flattened, much like Iran would be flattened if it launched an attack on Israel.

[tekisui]

7. Well, get ready.

Suicide bombings are more effective, and it looks like that is what will follow.

[azurnoir]

62. Most of the rockets are homemade

the literal translation of kassam is kitchen, some are more recently have been Hamas some are not and there is very little coordination

[rundownman]

90. kinda like bottle rockets, or fire crackers n/t

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rundownman]

95. I was under the impression that pictures weren't allowed in the I/P forum

I may be wrong, however.

[tekisui]

6. It really isn't too terribly important whether they are carried out in

coordination with Hamas or under Hamas' complicity. If Hamas didn't want them to go, they wouldn't.

I think they are doing their best to cause damage. And, it is already being said that suicide attacks will return in Israel, now.

[hack89]

10. I don't see the suicide attacks happening

do you really think that Hamas deliberately toned down the number of suicide bombers over the past couple of years? There is a reason Israel build a wall to separate Palestinians from Israelis - it works.

[glowing]

8. Why was Israel created in the place that it was? Why couldn't they have

just taken Texas.. Then it would have been a good country to visit, rather than bush country.

[Warpy]

9. The rockets are primitive and lack guidance systems

and about all the militants can do is point and shoot and hope they hit something besides an olive grove or pond.

As for who the militants are connected with, who knows? They're funded by fake charities set up mostly in the Middle East that say they're humanitarian charities.

Hamas, by the way, is an organization that also does things like distribute food and run the hospitals. How closely it is linked with the half wits sending rockets into Israel is anyone's guess.

What we do know is that the kill crazy hawks on both sides wield far too much power and that none of this will ever be settled while they're supported, at all.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

58. Not all of them

There are different kinds be shot at Israel. The Qassams are of local manufacture. Sort of pipe bomb bottle rocket. Limited range and not precise at all. There are also quality issues, as seen in the one that landed in Gaza recently and killed several children.

The other is the Grad which Vietnam vets know as the 4.2 inch rocket and WWII vets as the Katusha. They are factory made, have gyros, much longer range, and a more serious warhead. Those are the ones that are reaching Ashekelon.

[Bragi]

11. I am surprised no-one here seems to know the answers

As I understand it, Israel claims it is bombing Gaza because it believes that the people who run Gaza -- Hamas -- are firing missiles into Israel. However, if Hamas is not responsible for these attacks, or able to stop them from occurring, then Israel is clearly wrong to be bombing Hamas facilities over the rocket attacks.

Personally, I admit I am not terribly well informed about how Hamas actually operates, and whether it actually has control over all of its militants, and whether it is highly factionalized. But it does seem to me that one cannot properly judge the justification for the Israeli attacks without this knowledge.

Which is why I asked, and why I am now kind of surprised that seemingly knowledgeable people debating this matter here seem to be unsure as to whether or not Hamas is authorizing the rocket attacks. Frankly, the situation seems similar to when Israel kept marginalizing Arafat and attacking his government for failing to rein in suicide bombers, when it was pretty obvious he was not able to do so.

As for whether the limited damage done by the rockets is deliberate, I gather that this lack of damage is due to the fact that these are low-tech weapons. Fair enough.

Nonetheless, it still seems objectively clear that today's attacks by Israel, are highly disproportionate to the real threat posed to its citizens by these rocket attacks.

A final point: if anyone has any online links to good articles that explain Hamas' role in these rocket attacks, then I'd be keen to read what's there.

- B

[pelsar]

12. hamas and gaza

as the elected and defacto govt of gaza, the ones who tax the importing of materials via the tunnels and when israel brings in supplies, hamas is very aware of where the importing material goes and is responsable for the happenings of its citizens as are all governments

when hamas took over gaza and did their "clean up" work they took complete control over gaza and rule in a cruel way...

after the kassans are fired, many times they claim responsibility...also seen during the funerals, hamas flags, of those who tried to fire and were killed

for the "one liners" about hamas taking responsibility try reading haretz http://www.haaretz.com/

the "plausabilty of denial" that arafat used (he supported financially the suicide system) is not longer acceptable to israel, hamas as the govt, and during the "claming period" proved that infact they do control gaza.

___

israeli citizens have been under rocket fire for over 2 years now....they get a 15 second warning (the time you spent reading this) to stop what they are doing and find a sheltered area....and hamas has made it clear that they plan on continuing and are now expanding their range to include some larger cities.....the sole reason it appears is to terrorize, if not kill and wound.

i dont know what the definition of disproportionate is but so far according to hamas its 230 hamas dead, 15 civilians, 1000 wounded (not defined) as of dec 28

[aranthus]

88. My attempt at a few answers.

First of all, Hamas is the elected government of Gaza (really all of the West Bank and Gaza, but they only rule Gaza for now). The exact details and whys and hows of the way Hamas took over Gaza and not the West Bank aren't relevant here. the point is that as the elected government, Hamas exercises great control over Gaza and the military forces in it, and is legally responsible for controlling its territory, just as the US government would be held responsible if some band of American terrorists started rocketing Mexico. Through that government, the Palestinians are also responsible for the rocketing of Israel, just as the citizens of Israel are responsible for the bombing of Gaza by their government.

The fact that the large barrage of rockets and mortars didn't occur until after Hamas declared an end to the cease fire, should tell you that Hamas is responsible. Rockets cost money and require material to build. Hamas provides that. They have the police and paramilitary to control their territory. Even if Hamas didn't actually order the attacks (which it most certainly did), it could prevent such a large barrage if it wanted to.

As for Arafat, it was pretty clear to the Israelis that he was paying for the manufacture of suicide bombs, and that the organizers of the attacks were from his government. Hamas is playing the same propaganda games, hoping that it can fool gullible or ignorant westerners.

Finally, what do you think that Israel should do?

[jbane]

13. The world is sick of this stupidity.

Cave men with high tech weapons on both sides. Actually, cavemen might be a little too advanced.
Anyone that takes the time to reply to this post to "explain" how one side or the other is "right"
can just keep it to yourself.

[tekisui]

14. They are all wrong.

I can't defend the actions of either, honestly.

[TomInTib]

15. Um, Hamas' ordnance is decidedly low-tech.

I think the question is who is the most "wrong".

The only Right in this is Wing.

[uppityperson]

16. I wish I could rec topics in this forum. I agree.

[annm4peace]

17. 1st you starve them, then you bomb them. Israel bombs Gaza civilians

I would like President-Elect Obama to be a compassionate world leader and to speak up against injustice, even if it is not politically expedient.

I am saddened and sickened that today Israel is once again applying blanket punishment to babies, children, women, men and the elderly in the Gaza Strip.


The Israeli foreign minister is lying on American television as part of the promised PR offensive against Palestinians. How dare he go on our airwaves and lie to us? This is not "self defense" as he claims. Scores of children and innocents have been killed as is always the case with carpet bombing...."

The region called the Holyland by the Abrahamic religions is again the victim of high-tech slaughter. By now you have probably heard that the bombing by Israel, with no doubt the tacit approval of the administration in Washington, has resulted in at least 200 deaths and 400 wounded on top of the brutal and illegal siege of Gaza (interrupted only by briefly allowing a small amount of humanitarian goods in to put a nice face on it to the world.).Israeli officials state their intention to continue. Nothing can justify this.

Although they are on break and their offices do not respond, I contacted the offices of our congressional representatives to protest and urge them to do anything they can to try to stop this. Nothing justifies this sociopathic act.

Contact Obama and share you outrage.
Obama's site:
http://capwiz.com/adc/utr/1/IXPMJNXMUD/FEMUJNXMVD/2737063731

Check out Dr. Ring's commentary on Flesh and Stone.. he was just in Gaza in Nov.

http://www.fleshandstone.net/commentary/gaza_voices_ring.html

Gaza Voices, American Silence - Kenneth Ring, PhD
Kenneth Ring, Ph.D., Professor Emeritus of Psychology, University of Connecticut, describes the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, just days before Israel launched today's major air attacks on the Gaza Strip, killing more than 200 people, according to local medics. Ring visited Palestine in November.

The baby is crying again. You wake up. Cold. There is no electricity in the house; it went off during the night. For the last week – weeks, months – it has been on only sporadically. You throw on a coat and go to check on the baby. It seems listless. There is no milk in the house, and very little food. The UN shipments have stopped again, and you are not sure when they will resume.


In the other room, you hear your husband coughing. He has been sick for weeks and lately he has been spitting up blood. He has tried to get permission to get to a hospital in Israel, but every time he has been denied permission to leave.


You go outside to see if a neighbor can give you any milk. The first thing that hits you is the stench. The garbage has not been collected for weeks, and the sewage problem, because of the recent rains, has become even worse. No wonder so many people are sick. You are living in a cesspool. And you, and everyone else, is trapped inside this prison because the borders are sealed. This has been going on now for a year and half, and there is no telling when it will be over. And with the end of the truce, such as it was, there is a renewed threat of violence from the Israelis. Even now, you see an Israeli drone overhead and know that a missile could be launched from it at any time.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AnOhioan]

20. Yeah, just like them damn injuns that were sitting.....

on land rightfully belonging to US settlers in the frontier days. No difference really.

[Pavulon]

24. Big difference, really

so many I would run out of text box to list them all.

Israel created by UN mandate..

Lets just give the west bank some casino's and make it even...

[AnOhioan]

38. Okey dokey

It's like talking to a brick wall sometimes.

[Pavulon]

45. Pick a modern example

we can compare to the siege of Richmond. Easier to compare to modern land scuffles. Have to back out the religious drama first.

[subsuelo]

83. exactly

Murdering the natives is nothing new to the U.S./Israel alliance

[cali]

86. Well, except for the fact that the Jews had a historical and continuous

presence in the region, and Europeans did not have a corresponding connection to America.

[rundownman]

92. what a lie

that is a total lie infact if you want to use your logic you can say ancient runic writings in America entitled europeans to invade america.

[oberliner]

128. It's a lie that Jews have had a continuous presence in the region?

Seriously? Jews have not lived in, for example, Jerusalem?

[mike_c]

35. that is a lie of the most vicious sort....

If one were to indeed "get what they give" there would not be such hugely disproportionate numbers of Palestinian dead. Palestinians would control Israel, and Israeli access to food, basic medical care, and decent lives on their own land. Israel is a murderous apartheid state. Hamas is THEIR creation, born from the need to fight Israeli oppression.

Palestinians fight back with rocks and home-made missiles, or by killing themselves to deliver blows to their oppressors. Israel crushes them with the most powerful and sophisticated weaponry on the planet. If Israeli's "got what they give" Tel Aviv would lie in ruins, like Gaza.

I despise that my tax dollars are used to murder Palestinians.

[Pavulon]

43. They pay for egyptian f16's

and egypt kills muslim brotherhood guys. So confusing.

Hamas is sworn to destroy israel, they are doing their job with shitty unguided weapons. That makes them heartless. They could actually shoot Israelis. But that is what soldiers do, terrorists shoot unguided weapons into cities.

Look up tokyo or dresden for ruin. Israel could do that to gaza, but will not. If hamas could wipe haifa off the map they would.

All this emotion for a land dispute. How many millions dead in dprc in this decade? Hit that google.

[Rage for Order]

60. You have the rhetoric down, I'll give you that

You're apparently upset that Israel has more effective weaponry than does Hamas. Not only do you blame the victim, saying "Hamas is THEIR creation, born from the need to fight Israeli oppression," you freely acknowledge that you'd like to see Tel Aviv in ruins. What better way to punish a "murderous apartheid state", right?

The Palestinians who voted for Hamas knew what they were voting for; Hamas has never tried to hide its ultimate goal of the destruction of the state of Israel and the death of every Jew on the planet. What did they think was going to happen after they fired 300 rockets into Israel in one week? What do you think would be an appropriate response from Israel? I believe the Israelis have shown a significant amount of restraint up to this point. I hope this counterattack against Hamas doesn't end until every last member of Hamas has been eliminated.

[wuushew]

42. I am surprised you are drawing attention to non-American weapon systems

since every arms sales to any country anywhere is labeled by you as Russian garbage or Chinese junk.

So what is it then? Are these dangerous weapons or ineffectual. Are you going to claim they are both poor weapons and dangerously terrifying?

[Pavulon]

44. Unguided and fired into cities

they could shoot Israeli soldiers, but that would make them real soldiers. They choose to kill people at random. Mind game and probably safer for them.

They kill people. They would use better weapons to kill women and kids at random if they could.

Give hamas a b61, they would pop it in haifa (no religious significance) in the time it took to arm fuse and fire.

[Behind the Aegis]

19. ...

:eyes:

[thewiseguy]

21. Yea I know. Truth hurts.

[Behind the Aegis]

23. Were it the truth, but as it nothing more than idiotic fodder...

...for the ignorant, it really isn't all that "truthful."

[earth mom]

22. So, what does that mean? Killing innocent people is ok with you?!

:wtf:

[Behind the Aegis]

25. Take your strawman elsewhere.

[thewiseguy]

26. Please do not criticize the mighty Israel on DU

[Behind the Aegis]

27. .

:eyes:

:puke:

[thewiseguy]

29. Yea that is my reaction to threads being locked and moved to I/P forum

Somehow that does not happen with GLBT, Economy, healthcare, and other threads.

:puke:

[Behind the Aegis]

31. oh fuck...we agree on something!

[LeftishBrit]

84. Not entirely correct

Threads about the vaccine/ anti-vaccine controversy often get moved to the Health forum.
That's an example I know, because I am pro-vaccine and sometimes get involved in the debates. No doubt there are plenty of other threads that get moved from GD.

Whether a thread gets moved depends on the level of emotion and controversy that the topic arouses, not on the 'mightiness' of the people involved.

[rundownman]

93. what a suprise n/t

[AnOhioan]

28. Seriously....Israel must always be held up as as good and just

at least according to some here.

[LeftishBrit]

85. And according to others here...

Israel must always be held up as evil and unjust.

It's a controversial issue, and you get strong views on both sides.

[Pavulon]

30. Meanwhile in Africa

millions die in land struggles. But they dont count like Palestinians. They are just africans and protest marches for them seem sparse..

This is a land struggle, look at for what it is. Both sides think they are special, and the world buys into the hype.

[thewiseguy]

32. I am not well informed on the millions that die in Africa due to land struggle.

:eyes:

[Pavulon]

36. No protest against dprc

but they dont have cool scarves. About 6 million there. In recent years.

Now how many in the me skirmish.

[thewiseguy]

39. My topic is more important than yours. Please discuss it. Please!

[rundownman]

96. lol funny

Instead lets discuss the ability to interject your own topic into a thread which has nothing to do about it, and what we can do to prevent future violations of this kind.

[azurnoir]

49. What truth that it A okay to kill Palestinian's

as long as you call them the right thing?

[cali]

87. a lie that won't die.

not with people like you repeating it ad nauseum. there's plenty of criticism and healthy debate on Israel here at DU.

[Sanctified]

33. Imagine if Canada launched daily missle attacks on the US.

I wonder how long it would take till the US retaliated with a show of force.

[thewiseguy]

34. Uhh yea we sorta invaded Iraq and killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis for no reason

and they were not even shooting missiles at us!

[Sanctified]

37. And no one is surprised when the Iraqi's retaliate. n/t

[azurnoir]

50. Imagine if the US decided that it wanted part of Canada and

started building settlements on Canadian soil then when pressured to leave did so but blocked all of Canada's ocean or water ports and airspace thereby not allowing Canada to have trade with any nation then also controlling most of Canada's land borders had Canadians dieing at checkpoints waiting for medical and denied Canadian honor students opportunity to study abroad would you still expect Canada to close its eyes and lie back and take it?

[Statistical]

67. Not sure if you are aware of this but Gaza has a LAND BORDER with Egypt

People could trade, get medical treatment, or study by going through Egypt and there is NOTHING Israel could do about it.

Instead you believe Isreal should open the checkpoints to allow the very people who announce ahead of time they will use suicide bomb attacks against Israel.

If Egypt is SSSOOOOO worried about the plight of the Palestinians why doesn't Egypt (the country Hamas has no vowed to exterminate) open THEIR border crossing and allow medical/trade/education travel?

Two countries border Gaza. One has been threatened with extermination and one has not? Your solution/outrage is that the one threatened with extermination doesn't open it's borders? Really?!?!

[azurnoir]

70. Egypt has opened its borders as of Saturday

see the strawman burn

[Statistical]

72. For only the most basic medical transfers

What about for the last 2 years?

What about to allow commerce?
What about allowing palestinian students to get a higher education?
What about to allow employment for unemployed workers?
What about to enable access to markets?
What about building a power line to enable secure & stable supply of electricity?
What about a water pipeline to ensure safe & clean water?

The truth is Egypt has done NOTHING except allow weapons & explosives to pour through the border while they aren't looking.

Egypt doesn't want a solution to the problem.

This idea the Gaza is a cesspoll because Isreael has kept it completely isolated is a joke. Anyone who looked at a map could see that Egypt has a large border with Gaza.

Employment, Trade, Commerce, Water, Electricity, Oil, Food could all flow across that border but it doesn't.

Egypt did open the border once. The Egyptian citizens didn't like the "refugees" in their country. Let the Jews deal with the problem.

Were you even aware that Egypt controlled Gaza for 3 decades? That Palestinians pleaded to be given Egyptian citizenship but Egypt kept the border closed and denied them citizenship. They weren't worthy of being a part of Egyptian society.

The only thing burning is the thin facade that you have any knowledge on the subject. Pick up a book; you might learn something interesting.

[azurnoir]

74. LOL the favorite strawman of the Pro's

Egypt, except Egypt has opened its borders and that is what you do not like, Egypt has opened its border on more than one occasion even recently as for being unaware that is what you rely on depend on and hope for because anyone that is aware also knows just how disingenuous your claims are, oh and Egypt controled Gaza from 1947 to 1967 with the exception of a few months in 1956 and 1957
The only thin facade here is your own

[Statistical]

75. Did you just make my argument for me?

Egypt controlled Gaza from 1949 to 1963 yet never allow Palestinians to leave. They were never allowed to go to school in Egypt, never allowed to work in Egypt. Egypt made no attempt to normalize trade between Egypt & Gaza.

Instead Egypt used Gaza as a military buffer to keep Isreal occupied and used Palestinians as disposable frontline troops.

THIS WAS WHEN EGYPT CONTROLLED GAZA. Since then they have done much much less to help anyone in Gaza. Unless you consider weapons, ammo, rockets, explosive and money to terrorist as "help"

Sure Egypt opens the border temporarily and for limited reasons sporadically but that is just to prevent Gaza from exploding. It lets off a little pressure.

The truth you can not deny is that despite having a shared border for 40+ years and controlling Gaza for 20+ more years Egypt has done nothing to help make Gaza LESS DEPENDENT ON ISRAEL.

No trade
No commerce
No investments (building schools, businesses, factories, banks, etc)
No free travel
No movement for higher education

NOTHING; EXECPT ANYTHING IN THE DEATH BUSINESS.

Egypt enjoys using Gaza as a private, cheap, disposable army.

[azurnoir]

79. 45 years ago are we disparate or what

Post a link for your for your claims, of course you make them rather unclear as to which time line you are talking about or do you even know what your talking about I am beginning to truly question that. As to Egypt's not taking on the responsibilities Israel agreed to why should they, Gaza is no longer their problem it is Israel's. The what about Egypt meme has become the favorite strawman of the proIsrael set but it is an obvious deflection, sort of like someone trying to get out of a paternity suit by claiming she might have slept with someone else.
But much to your obvious frustration Egypt has opened its borders today and in the recent past, if Egypt did open its borders on a permanent basis you would complain about that too.

[Mari333]

40. nothing sadder then a nation-state that behaves

no different from that which they abhor.

[polly7]

41. Thank you for this. n/t

[thewiseguy]

46. and we are back in the I/P forum

[Violet_Crumble]

47. Oh well. Look on the bright side....

At least the moderation in this forum is slightly fairer than in GD. Me, I'm getting sick of the GD mods dumping all these threads down here.

[polly7]

48. I just can't believe the world has watched this for so long and done nothing.

http://www.humanrights.ro/Members/janina/news/israeli-blockade-causes-worsening-humanitarian-crisis-in-gaza

http://www.oxfam.org.uk/resources/downloads/oxfam_gaza_lowres.pdf

[azurnoir]

51. Thank you so much

also you can contact your congress critter mine was one of 6 that had the backbone to protest Hot Winter last March Betty McCollum and she was re-elected in November

[annm4peace]

52. Wow.. can't believe this was shoved under Israel/Palestine

I have posted recent stories that concerned Veterans and it wasn't shoved under Veterans.
Shouldn't it be the person posting choice whether to put under Israel/Palestine.

Also, I can't believe the immature remarks to my post, or actually the back and forth between some of the "replys".

I protest against all the "Military Madness".. and there are many Israelis, and also Jewish Israelis who are also protesting the inhumane treatment of Palestines and also of sanctions and bombing in Gaza. Many know that Violence begets Violence.

The only people winning in Israel bombing the civilians in Gaza are the war profiteers and the people they put in power by donations.

[oberliner]

53. The vast majority of those killed were Hamas militants and officers

According to the AP:

Most of the casualties were security forces, but Palestinian officials said at least 15 civilians were among the dead.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081228/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

[madrchsod]

54. there`s nothing more exciting

like the religious semitic tribal warfare over land that the sons of Abraham lay claim to. it`s the never ending war that has lasted thousands upon thousands of years in the land of milk and honey.

[polly7]

55. Oh bull.

Palestinians want the right to feed their children. Work. Have their pregnant wives not have to give birth at checkpoints because their open-air prisons / ghettoes don't have health-care. To not have their homes bulldozed or their child on his / her way to school. Just normal needs like you and I.

[rundownman]

91. International peacekeeping force should enter israel, no fly zone over gaza, etc

since israel is not responsible enough to be left to their selves, we need a 200K peacekeeping force to enter israel and force the IDF to turn over weapons as well as take control of the illegal nuclear program.

A no fly zone should be set up over and around palestine and gaza since israel can not stop attacking its neighbors.

[Alamuti Lotus]

56. This week, Hizb'ullah will hit you from the north!

This disgusting killing spree will not go without a response.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

59. That will be interesting to see if they do

Unlike Hamas, Hizb'ullah has been freely rearmed by Syria and Iran. They have a number of offensive option. However, they have been focusing on defense and not power projection.

[Rage for Order]

61. Of course there will be a response

Israel has responded to the disgusting killing spree wrought by Hamas's rockets. I hope Israel's response is firm and decisive.

[azurnoir]

63. Yes please inform us as to just how many Israelis have died

as a result of Hamases killing spree? "Inquiring minds" wish to know

[Rage for Order]

64. From rocket attacks only...

Or should I also include the people killed in suicide bombings in malls and restaurants?

[tan guera]

65. Why don't you

give us the numbers killed on both sides?

[Rage for Order]

66. Because you can get the numbers yourself

Google is your friend. Israel has killed more Palestinians, but it's not due to the Palestinains' lack of trying. Israel has suffered enough random violence, and it's time for Hamas to feel the pain.

[azurnoir]

71. See the link in post #69

there is a reason he will not give the numbers

[Rage for Order]

77. There are 2 reasons, actually...

The first is because it's easy enough to look it up for one's self. The other is I don't give a shit. The only reason Hamas hasn't killed more Israelis is luck - good luck if you're Israel, bad luck if you're Hamas. War isn't about a fair fight. Both sides attempt to inflict as many casualties on the other side as possible. The fact that Israel is better at inflicting casualties than is Hamas is an indictment of Hamas's military, not an indictment of state of Israel. It's obvious to anyone with any ethical and moral values whatsoever that Hamas made up of a bunch of bloodthirsty murderous shitbag thugs. The more of them Israel can eliminate, the better off the world will be. I'll applaud each and every one. :)

[azurnoir]

80. Post #73 said it the best you are mentally ill

Does your the only good Arab a dead Arab oh thats right its only Hamas LOL theory apply to Iraq as well I'll bet it does

[azurnoir]

69. sure espicially the big one 7 ot 8 years ago

wait I will do it for you

http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/Casualties.asp

however thank you for informing us that today's deaths were based on happening in 2000 and 2001

[ConsAreLiars]

73. Hamas rockets in the recent phase killed zero.

You either knew that and were lying or you didn't. Which? US supplied Israeli aircraft launched missiles and bombs murdered well over 200 in one day. That makes you happy? Says a lot about you, doesn't it. You delight in mass murder, and still try to pass as sane? Mass murder as a supposed response to zero killings. And you applaud. Sick.

[Alamuti Lotus]

76. Actually, one has been killed finally

In response to the cacaphony of bombs falling on Gaza City, all Gaza militants (or any reasonable facsimile available) have ramped up their operations against border settlements -- in Nethivat (hopefully have the spelling correct, I am writing this as a I read a satellite broadcast in a language I don't understand quite as well as I used to -- pelsar, any correction to the location?) one Israeli has been killed, and more rockets are falling on Ashkelon at this moment than ever before. Seems like the assault is a great success so far.

[Rage for Order]

78. I do applaud

It's been a long time coming

[azurnoir]

81. Yeah since last March right it must have been absolute

hell waiting a 9 whole months for more dead Palestinians so when will you have had your fill how many dead will satisfy you?

[BunkerHill24]

68. Israel is the occupier....they need to make sure Gaza is a living place

The UN Security Council must act/////and act NOW.

The UN must act; Israel must not be allowed to choke off 1.6 million people/.

[Vegasaurus]

82. Hamas won't let the injured leave Gaza

and Abbas himself has said that Hamas is responsible for the Israeli response.

In fact, if Hamas had any desire to have the bombs stop, they need only stop the rockets.

There would be an immediate ceasing of bombs.

But they continue to fire more and more rockets and mortars, because obviously, they don't care about the welfare of the Palestinian civilians.

Why else would they not allow them to leave for medical treatment, or stop the rockets?

[Unsane]

97. Why is Israel being such an ass?

They're making it hard for even the neo-cons to defend them.

[Hanse]

98. Because Bush is having a going out of business fire sale.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

99. political pandering, is my best guess. someone needs their poll numbers to go up

and bombing is an easy way to do it.

think of us and iraq

[peace13]

100. Nice post! n/t

[sellitman]

101. Why is Hamas being Dicks?

They are causing Palestinians death and destruction by their continues bombing of civilian targets.

[DesertFlower]

102. i agree. nt

[Truth2Tell]

106. And Israel continues to cause Israeli death and destruction

by their continued bombing of civilian targets and their continued collective punishment of 1.5 million Palestinians.

[Behind the Aegis]

108. Do what now?

[Hanse]

110. Israel is getting its own citizens killed.

The people who caused and applaud this action do not have the best interest of Israel civilians in mind.

[Behind the Aegis]

119. How?

[Truth2Tell]

112. Who do what now?

Sense your post makes not.

[Behind the Aegis]

120. Nevermind. Another poster understood.

[sellitman]

109. Who violated the latest cease fire?

You know the answer to that.

It wasn't the Israelis either.

[Truth2Tell]

113. There are many ways to inflict violence

and firing missiles is only one of them. Blockades and targeted assassinations are also acts of war (illegal under international law even). You can quibble about who technically violated the latest "ceasefire," but really Israel has never ceased committing acts of violence against millions of Palestinians.

[atreides1]

115. Just like the Sioux!!

If it wasn't for them attacking Custer on their land, more of them would have lived also!!!!(sarcasm intended)

[azurnoir]

127. Oh wow their the ones with the F-16's

thanks for setting us straight,or are you saying that 5 deaths in 61/2 years justifies the 285 yesterday the nearly 160 last March and so on ?

The first time an Israeli city was hit was on March 5, 2002, when two rockets struck Sderot. Some rockets have hit as far as the edge of Ashkelon. The total number of Qassam rockets launched exceeded 1000 by June 9, 2006. During the year 2006 alone, 1000+ rockets were launched. As of May 2008, over 3,000 rockets had been launched<3> and 15 people have been killed by Qassam rockets<4> (see: List of Qassam rocket attacks).

The introduction of the Qassam rocket took Israeli politicians and military experts by surprise.<5> Reactions have been mixed.<6> The Israeli Ministry of Defense views the Qassams as "more a psychological than physical threat.",

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket

[zippy890]

103. like the I/P forum?

where your goin'

;-)

[Truth2Tell]

104. This post has a lot of potential.

:popcorn:

[arcos]

105. Because they have elections coming up... nt

[dysfunctional press]

107. it's what they do best.

it's easy to be a snotty little prick when the biggest bully on the block always has your back, no matter what.

[IndianaGreen]

111. You are not a new poster

and you should know better than to post this here.

Ciao!

[Freddie Stubbs]

114. It may have something to do with Hamas refusing to recognize Israel's right to exist and

the Palestinians who are launching rockets at civilian targets in Israel.

[Truth2Tell]

117. Right. And we invaded and occupied Iraq

because of 9-11.

[Freddie Stubbs]

123. Do you deny that Palestinians were shelling civilian targets in Israel?

:shrug:

[Truth2Tell]

129. Of course not.

(although "shelling" is a mis-characterization)

But those quite limited Palestinian strikes no more justify Israel's actions than 9-11 justified invading Iraq. Both are just convenient excuses for knee-jerk pro-war reactionaries to push their fear-driven agendas of domination.

[oberliner]

130. 9-11 had nothing to do with Iraq

Iraq did not attack the US. And Iraq is nowhere near the US.

Hamas, on the other hand, has attacked Israel and is adjacent to Israel.

And how is "shelling" a mis-characterization? Shelling means "to fire shells at" which is exactly what they did.

I'd like to add that I am not claiming that the Hamas actions justified the Israeli ones, but I think the analogy with 9-11/Iraq is inaccurate.

[Truth2Tell]

131. Israel is bombing and killing many people who did not attack them.

They are doing so out of a misguided notion that somehow doing so will make them more secure when in fact the opposite is true. They are also doing so in order to sow domestic fear for political reasons. In these ways the situations are analogous. Of course in every analogy one can find differences. If that were not the case, the situations would be identical, instead of just analogous.

And BTW, Israel is not just attacking "Hamas." They are attacking citizens of Gaza in general.

[oberliner]

132. Well, I don't agree with all of your premises

And I think there are many more dissimilarities than similarities, thus rendering the analogy less than instructive.

In any case, lets hope that the casualty numbers don't come anywhere near what the US inflicted in Iraq or Afghanistan.

[Truth2Tell]

118. dupe

[Unsane]

124. let's compare the causalties

[Behind the Aegis]

125. And what does that do?

Do you really want to?

[AtomicKitten]

116. IMO because Junior's term ends in 23 days.

[greguganus]

121. It could be that Israel begged Hamas to stop launching rockets on them but they didn't n/t

[Sebastian Doyle]

122. Because the Likud asses in Israel need to get the biggest craziest ass of all elected in February

That would be NuttyYahoo. And the only way to get him in office is to put the Israeli people in "fear & terra" mode.

[27inCali]

126. T.E. Lawrence is one of the few Westerners

ever to successfully cobble together an alliance of various waring Arab tribes, of coarse not by himself, but he was there to witness how it was done, and studied Arab culture for years before becoming involved in the Arab stuggle against the old Turkish empire.

I think a lot of light would be shed on the reality of Middle Eastern conflict by reading the first chapter in his book, the Seven Pillars in which he gives a basic summary of Middle Eastern history which goes something like this.

The Middle East for the most part is made up of deserts and arid mountains inhospitable to life, spreckled here and there with a few Oasis' and grazing lands good enough to support farming. Middle Eastern history consists mostly of various Arab tribes fighting over the few pieces of land that can sustain a sizeable community, the losing tribes being thrust out into the desert to wander and live like Bedouins until they could find another tribe weak enough to oust from their land. Of coarse there have been major empires that have risen and fallen, but for the most part they have done so not by uniting various tribes but by subjugating them for as long as possible until a stronger empire comes along and subjugates them. This has been going on for about 6000 years or so and old habits die hard. The main point is that the inhospitality of the land has forced Arabs to become deeply warlike as a necessity for survival. When there is enough to go around, there is less fighting, when resources are few there is more. It's a great example of how geography shapes culture over time.

I think people make a mistake in creating a false division between ethnic Jews and other Arabs since in truth ethnic Jews are really just one more tribe or group of tribes to immerge in the Middle East with the situation being complicated by the fact that major sections of the Western world are moved by their religious beliefs to grant the Jews special status over all others. Put together with the powerful and natural urge for more secular Westerners to show favortism in a misguided attempt to counter-balance the tremendous cruelty and prejudice visited on Jews throughout European history with an unthinking sort of favoritism now.

Add to this Western Corporations constant meddling in politics, supporting business-friendly tyranny over popular democracies, the fact that the British lumping together rival tribes arbitrarily and fabricating from the air national boundries that do little to reflect the history of the peoples and region and you can imagine how completely twisted this pretzel of a problem really is.

One other very important problem that must be addressed in the widespread and in many ways correct opinion around the Arab world that the creation of an Isreali state that encompasses the Holy Land is really just a back door Crusade by which Europe seeks to gain control by proxy of the Holy Land once again. A quick review of the Crusades will help clarify why almost any support for Isreal by Western countries as a direct agression against Islam itself.