The amount of death and destruction is inconceivable (Live from Palestine)

[subsuelo]

Six locations were hit during the air raid on Gaza City. The images are probably not broadcasted on US news channels. There were piles and piles of bodies in the locations that were hit. As you looked at them you could see that a few of the young men were still alive, someone lifts a hand, and another raises his head. They probably died within moments because their bodies were burned, most had lost limbs, some of their guts were hanging out and they were all lying in pools of blood. Outside my home which is close to the two largest universities in Gaza, a missile fell on a large group of young men, university students. They'd been warned not to stand in groups as it makes them an easy target, but they were waiting for buses to take them home. Seven were killed, four students and three of our neighbors' kids, young men who were from the Rayes family and were best friends. As I'm writing this I can hear a funeral procession go by outside; I looked out the window a moment ago and it was the three Rayes boys. They spent all their time together when they were alive, they died together and now they are sharing the same funeral together. Nothing could stop my 14-year-old brother from rushing out to see the bodies of his friends laying in the street after they were killed. He hasn't spoken a word since.

What did Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert mean when he stated that we the people of Gaza weren't the enemy, that it was Hamas and Islamic Jihad which were being targeted? Was that statement made to infuriate us out of out our state of shock, to pacify any feelings of rage and revenge? To mock us? Were the scores of children on their way home from school and who are now among the dead and the injured, Hamas militants? A little further down my street about half an hour after the first strike, three schoolgirls happened to be passing by one of the locations when a missile struck the Preventative Security Headquarters building. The girls' bodies were torn into pieces and covered the street from one side to the other.

In all the locations, people are going through the dead, terrified of recognizing a family member among them. The streets are strewn with their bodies, their arms, legs, feet, some with shoes and some without. The city is in a state of alarm, panic and confusion, cell phones aren't working, hospitals and morgues are backed up and some of the dead are still lying in the streets with their families gathered around them, kissing their faces, holding on to them. Outside the destroyed buildings old men are kneeling on the ground, weeping. Their slim hopes of finding their sons still alive vanish after taking one look at what had become of their office buildings.

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10059.shtml">Safa Joudeh writing from the occupied Gaza Strip, Live from Palestine, 27 December 2008

[subsuelo]

1. Israel sure is good at killing people

I'm so glad that Democrats join Republicans in supporting their colonization efforts.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oberliner]

3. Fuck Israel? No better than the Nazis?

Are you serious?

[hack89]

5. History is not your strong point, is it?

let me know when Arabs start dying by the thousands.

[WinkyDink]

7. Millions.

[conscious evolution]

13. So how many people must

die before we condem israel for their behavior?
6 million? More?

[oberliner]

14. You didn't condemn Israeli - you said they were no worse than the Nazis

There is a difference. Lots of people are condemning Israeli today without resorting to saying they are no wore than the Nazis.

[conscious evolution]

16. OK

Could you tell me which other historical oppressor of Jews that everyone recognizes at the mere mention of that I could compare Israel to?

Most people give you a blank stare when you mention,say,the Tatars.Or who created ghettos and when/why.Most people think a pogrom is something on tv.

[oberliner]

17. Why would you choose a historical oppressor of Jews for your comparison?

What point are you trying to make?

[hack89]

31. Why not pick a historical oppressor of Palestinians?

Say Syria or Jordan? They have certainly killed just as many Palestinians as Israel.

[Vegasaurus]

32. In the case of Jordan, their overall kill ratio per single day is way higher

[cali]

20. you know, it's not that difficult to condemn Israel's actions without

the nonsense crap about how they're all just nazis. Try it.

[subsuelo]

8. I'm as opposed to Israel massacring the natives as anyone, *but*

There's nothing worse than the Nazis. Israel's methods are not as bad.

[GoesTo11]

9. If Israel has lost your support, things are really looking bleak.

You are an idiot.

[conscious evolution]

15. Its really saddening

The oppressed has become the oppressor.
Its like the Israeli state has turned into the very thing they returned to palestine to escape from.

[GoesTo11]

18. I stand corrected

You are a major idiot.

Have you thought about joining the skinhead movement?

[Vegasaurus]

10. Oh good

The Israel=Nazi=f**k them, they deserve terrorism, meme.

I expect to see lots more of this because the closet anti-semites can't keep quiet for long.

[conscious evolution]

12. I am anti Israel,not antisemitic

[cali]

21. what other countries are you so virulently anti?

Israel isn't the worst of the oppressors in the world. I find the focus on Israel as the root of all evil in the world, very interesting. And the excuses as to why, equally interesting.

[GoesTo11]

23. But if you succeeded in killing all the Jews in Israel, then what?

When Jews outside of Israel have no homeland, would you then change your mind and want to kill them too? If so, then you might have a tinge of anti-semitism, not just anti-Israelism.

[Vegasaurus]

25. These people want Israel GONE

who the hell cares about the Jews that live there.

They want yet another Muslim theocracy, to add to the dozens of other repressive Muslim regimes we already have in the world, but a JEW-FREE middle east.

[conscious evolution]

37. Where do you get the idea

that I want all Jews dead?
I just want them to quit acting like nazi's.

[conscious evolution]

19. No one deserves terrorism.

If you cannot understand that....

[midnight]

4. Didn't Jimmy Carter have these two countries within some

sort of peaceful discussions not to long ago? Maybe that was another area? All this killing is just breading more of the same.

[subsuelo]

6. He got branded 'anti-semitic' for trying for peace

[bunnies]

11. Israel = America Jr.

This is why we sit idly by and do nothing as they systemically kill a people and steal their land. Its infuriating.

[cali]

22. Simplistic and ignorant is infuriating.

[bunnies]

24. But apparently, insults are FUN!!!

:eyes:

Are you actually arguing that Israel didnt forcibly take Palestinian land? There arent millions of Palestinian refugees? That Israel isnt 'settling' on what little land they so graciously let the Palestinians "live" on?

Please, DO enlighten me. As a Native American, I cant wait to hear how the two are nothing alike.

[cali]

27. I'm arguing that that's not the whole story.

I'm arguing that demonizing is a fool's errand. I'm arguing that I/P is complex and that sloganeering is fruitless.

And though there are similarities between the colonization of the U.S. and Israel in Palestine, the obvious difference is that Jews have a historical connection and continuous presence in Palestine and the Europeans didn't have that connection here.

And I hate to break it to you, but the accident of your birth doesn't confer you with any moral superiority. That's true for all of us.

Oh, and imagine what the region would look like if the Palestinians had accepted the U.N. mandate creating two countries some 60 years ago. Whether on thinks Israel should or shouldn't have been created, the fact remains that it was.

[bunnies]

28. No amount of "historical connection" gives anyone the right to...

steal the land of other people and doom them to a life of suffering. If that were the case, then Native Americans would be well and good to take back the land that the 'settlers' slaughtered our ancestors for. You'd be cool with that? :shrug:

Of course that will never happen though because there arent enough of us left.

If only the Palestinians had taken a cue from Native Americans. Be happy with your scraps of land - heres a casino. Yay.

[cali]

33. Of course it doesn't. I was simply pointing out why the comparison

you made is flawed. Israel needs to remove its settlements from the WB and pull back, roughly, to the Green Line. But again, the Palestinians aren't merely victims. They've contributed to the mess. Bombing pizza parlors and buses, attacking and murdering Israeli athletes, etc, etc, does not move forward their cause.

I support the Palestinians. I support a secure and independent Palestine. I support the Israelis. I support a secure Israel. I do not support the Israeli government. I do not support Hamas.

Beyond hatred of the Israelis, what do YOU support?

[bunnies]

36. I dont have a hatred of Israelis.

And I resent being accused of as much. Disagreeing with the government does not equal a hatred of Israelis. That accusation is simply not fair.

In fact, based on by what you wrote, we support the same thing... I simply dont see Israel as the hapless victim some play them out to be. When a country is born on the anguish of a people, how peaceful can it be?

Both sides are wrong... and the killing has got to stop.

[Mojorabbit]

29. Oh stop

Collective punishment is always wrong and will accomplish nothing. It is like shooting fish in a barrel and it is wrong. I am sure most of the people there have as much control over their govt as I do over Bush. No one deserves to be bombed like this.

[cali]

34. Collective punishment is always wrong. On that we agree.

No one deserves to be bombed like this. I completely condemn the disproportionate Israeli response. I've repeatedly stated that. However, in the bigger picture, portraying Israel as this all evil entity, and Palestinians as pure as the driven snow- or visa versa- is simply stupid and an expression of hate.

[The_Commonist]

26. This is all so sad.

Maybe someday our species will learn to stop doing this to each other.

[Bragi]

30. Is it one failed state, or two?

I guess there is just one failed state involved in this conflict, what with the Palestinians never really getting a chance to set up a state they could fail on their own.

Without US arms, Israel would not exist at this point. Because Israelis are now seemingly unable and unwilling to choose peace over war, it seems unlikely that Israel has any long term future. Too bad. They could have made a go of it, had they found a way to make peace with their neighbors. I wish that had been the outcome, but it isn't.

So it's time to move on. I hope that someone somewhere is thinking about how to resettle the many Israelis who will need to leave the country in the next few years, as their military (non)solution makes their country increasingly non-viable.

The fair and just resettlement of Israelis is going to be a major humanitarian issue in the next few years. It isn't too early to start thinking about this.

- B

[cali]

35. this just sounds like wishful thinking on your part.

let's go through your claims, one by one. Yes, the Palestinians were given a chance at a state: They were given that chance in 1947-1948.

Israel would indeed exist without American aid. Furthermore, the Israelis are not the only party responsible for the intractable situation.

The suggestion that Israelis will be resettled is simply advocacy of ethnic cleansing. And it won't happen anyway. Israel won't simply disppear off the map- at least not in the next few years.

[Bragi]

38. Wishful thinking?

No, wishful thinking on my part would be creation of two countries -- Israel and Palestine -- with Israel seen by its neighbors as a valued partner, living in peace alongside a prosperous Palestine. Unfortunately, I don't think that wish is going to come true. Too much has happened, and realistically, the future of Israel is much bleaker than I would wish it to be.

You say Israel "would indeed exist without American aid." I believe Israel could exist without US aid if it had pursued peace and settled with its neighbors. Given its past and current policies, however, and the mistakes it has made, and its neighbors have made, that isn't going to happen. The decades-long failure of Israel and its neighbors to learn how to live peaceably together means that, barring almost unfathomable events, it will continue to exist only as long as the US supplies it with planes, armaments, nukes, money, etc.

As for Israel not disappearing "at least not in the next few years" I guess it depends on what you mean by a "few years." Given the past, I see no future for Israel for much longer, and I think the end game is now being played out.

This is why I think it is time to start thinking about, and speaking openly about, humanitarian assistance for those who will want and need to leave Israel as it spirals into a failed state.

I say all this with no pleasure whatsoever. The failure of Israel to become a functioning state is a great tragedy for everyone, a tragedy with no heroes and many culpable parties on all sides.

Though I doubt it will happen, I think it is reasonable to at least begin to address this tragedy openly and honestly.

[cayuga]

39. This assault guarantees only one thing:

The retaliation will come. Israelis know this. The answer has to be bigger than what we have done in the past. Until we find that answer, no Israeli mother or father or brother or cousin or son - no Israeli will have a moment's peace...waiting.