Hamas threatens to harm Livni, Barak

[oberliner]

Excerpt:

"We will reach that Zionist in her house, inside the Knesset compound. We will also get to the traitors in the Muqata compound in Ramallah and to all those in the Arab world that had a hand in the scheme against us. We will hunt Barak down and reach all of them," Hamad said.

"Today we are sending a message through the sea of blood that was spilled here and we will not surrender and we will defeat the enemy. From here, from within the proud Strip, we say to all our enemies: We will get to you, defeat you, and hunt you down one by one.

"We will reach the Zionist leaders in their homes, we will get to you, the collaborators in the Muqata in Ramallah, and we will settle the score with you one by one."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3645799,00.html

[AnOhioan]

1. and the vicious circle continues.

(edit for spelling)

[GoesTo11]

2. Hamas has a major death wish

They are telling Israeli leaders to kill Hamas. Maybe they're dreaming about their 72 virgins. Wonder if Gaza voters are having any buyer's remorse.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

26. It desn't matter if they are having remorse or not, Hamas is not letting go

The Hamas comments remind me of the "Mother of all battles" and Baghdad Bob's inanities before Saddam got removed. Easy to say if you think you are not the one going to die. Perhaps Hamas leadership should take a lesson there.

Remember also that Hamas did not win the majority of votes in Gaza. They also purged (Stalin style) any PA members or anyone else they thought would oppose them. Couple that with the IAF attack of all the Hamas targets they could identify, I expect it will be quite sometime before Hamas is capable of much of anything.

The PA has said they are ready to step in when Hamas capitulates, but I think that is unlikely to happen, at least publicly.

[rundownman]

28. Your statement is loaded with arrogance

I'm sorry but what would you have the people of palestine do? go home and shoot themselves so that zionists can have more land for themselves?

Hmmm... I wonder why per say, do you have such hatred for non zionists?

[GoesTo11]

36. The people of Palestine should build a country

It may have felt great to vote for Hamas, but it hasn't done them any good.

The Palestinians would do better to focus on building their own country and not attacking Israel - attacking Israel is just obviously not going to work but their leaders keep taking them there.

There are a few extremists in Israel who want the land of the Gaza strip, but that's a minority. It was Ariel Sharon who withdrew Israeli forces from Gaza. There are more Israelis who want to take much of the land of the West Bank, but even there, the majority opinion is that it's not worth the trouble (except for metropolitan Jerusalem) and that the "settlers" are costing the country a great deal.

If the Palestinians could have leaders who focus on building and not on destruction, they would leap into a very high quality of life within a generation, and with Israel's assistance if they want it.

I want the Palestinians to reject Hamas and its love of violence and death.

[LeftishBrit]

40. According to recent polls, the voters do have buyer's remorse

http://www.icej.org/article/palestinian_poll_shows_fatah_would_beat_hamas_in_elections

A poll on Dec 11th suggested that only 28% would vote for Hamas if there were an election now.

[The Stranger]

67. Not sure where to start except that Israel supported Hamas for years against Fatah.

It was the old divide and conquer . . . that didn't turn out so well.

[Turbineguy]

3. Howz that strategery

workin' out for ya?

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oberliner]

5. What do "Jews around the world" have to do with the actions of the Israeli government?

Why do "Jews around the world" have to be absolved of anything?

[TomClash]

10. It is meant as a way to strip the Israeli government of its moral legitimacy

A third intifada - killing more innocents, including IDF grunts - is no strategy; as a tactic it is a joke. So another path must be chosen. There is no point in killing Israeli jews - how is killing some 8 year old with a yarmulke going to advance the cause of a just and lasting peace? It won't. Thus, even people I don't particularly care for, like BehindtheAegis, have a point when they say "what should the Israeli government have done?" "Kill proportionately" is the answer, but in the general scheme of things it's not really a great answer.

Groups like AIPAC, ADL and others around the world that reflexively support Israel right or wrong must be weakened. Only consistent pressure can bring that about and that pressure is moral, ethical, political and legal. That must come from jews around the world, particularly in the US. But that can only happen when Palestinians use different tactics to achieve their strategic goals.

Maybe it's not perfect. And maybe it won't be implemented. But I don't see another "road map" or another "peace process" or another hundred rounds of killing accomplishing anything. And I don't see anyone on this Board with any real ideas - only snarky sniping (I'm as guilty as anyone) - and that's why I stopped posting here for quite some time.

[oberliner]

15. How about "people around the world" pushing for peace?

Singling out Jews around the world suggests a link between the actions of the Israeli government and Jewish people living in other countries.

There are non-Jewish groups in the US that "reflexively support Israel" just as much if not more than groups like AIPAC.

I think that your idea that Jewish people in particular ought somehow to be made to feel "shamed" into speaking up is misguided to say the least.

[subsuelo]

16. We should all be shamed

For allowing the slaughter to continue

[TomClash]

20. Of course nt

[TomClash]

19. One by one

Your second sentence is correct and only makes my point.

As for your first sentence, of course all people must speak up - no one said they shouldn't. But I doubt the voices of Canadian muslims have much sway with the Israeli government.

As for your third sentence, please read my posts in their entirety. Don't simply take one segment out of context. So I will pose you a question in context. If Palestinians stopped the killing - no more suicide bombings, rocket attacks, etc. - and took illegal but nonviolent actions (think Alinsky/Ghandi/SNCC) and were still being bombed, killed, imprisoned, occupied and/or oppressed by a state established in the name of jews around the world as a safe haven from oppression - is it your opinion that jews around the world would not have and should not have any moral qualms about its policies?

[rundownman]

29. Truthfully they don't have to appologize

for anything other than their blind, arrogant, ambitious, hostile loyality to one group of people, one nation over all other groups around them as well as hatred of all peoples who are not willing to bow to the allmighty israel.

Now, if you are not able to see racism than you are blind. All people should be against racism whether it is a jewish person being racist or a catholic person being racist or for that matter a muslim.

Hamas killed one single israeli from crude rocket launchings. In detriot more people die every 30 minutes than hamas has managed to kill in the last month of 'war'.

Yet still, Israel has killed around 500 people and maimed over a thousand in palestine in one single day. What is worse everyone around the world is silent, SILENT over these crimes, for fear of retribution from their governments and from the media.

The people who launched the rockets (that killed 1 person) should be arrested by the police for sure, then tried for MURDER! but there hasn't been time to have an investigation, etc.


Should the government of the USA and israel launch an air raid on detroit if one israeli is killed?


You could only justify that line of thinking if you were a racist pig.

[LeftishBrit]

42. WHO is supposed to be guilty of this>

'their blind, arrogant, ambitious, hostile loyality to one group of people, one nation over all other groups around them as well as hatred of all peoples who are not willing to bow to the allmighty israel.'

This would be extreme even if you mean Israelis. But do you seriously think that non-Israeli Jews are loyal to Israel above all others, and hate all who 'are not willing to bow to the allmighty Israel'???


I am against a lot of the Israeli government's actions including this one, but I don't think that 'Jews round the world' should be held responsible. That is a fundamentally racist idea. Like holding all Chinese-Americans responsible for China's occupation of Tibet, or all Muslims responsible for the actions of Saudi Arabia or Iran.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

55. You need to check your numbers and facts

- 300 killed, many of the Hamas
- Israel has focused its attacks on Hamas buildings and infrastructure. This has been validated by Palestinian media
- IIRC the death was from a Grad, not a Qassam. Grads are factory made and far from crude.
- The attacks from Gaza were done by Hamas. They are not going to arrest their own.

Its not racist, though clearly there is a lot of bloody mindedness on both sides.

The real racism here is the treatment of the Palestinians by the Muslim and Arab nations, who have used them as disposable tools for generations. Armed them and sent them on suicide missions knowing they would fail, die, and that bloody retribution would occur. Now that's what I call racism.

[cali]

6. sick post. truly sick.

How on earth are Jews around the world responsible for Israeli actions? Disgusting sort of mindset. It's disgusting when people talk in that kind of ignorant freeper type way about Muslims and it's just as disgusting when people do it re Jews.

And sorry, but this isn't some simplistic Israel/Jews=Evil and Palestinians/Muslims=good innocent victims.

[TomClash]

8. They are not responsible at all

Let me explain. Jews around the world must speak out about this. If they won't they must be shamed into doing so. It is a moral strategy. It is far better than killing the innocent - on both sides. One side or the other must stop the killing and the Palestinians must create a new political strategy - I think the Palestinians must step forward first.

Sick post? Truly sick? What is your strategy for getting the two sides back to serious negotiations? Road maps, bombs and good wishes don't seem to amount to much. I have read your posts for years - you have no strategy.

I understand the conflict is not simple. But calling it complex can sometimes just be an excuse for inaction or cowardice.

[oberliner]

11. Why must Jews around the world be shamed into speaking out about this?

What do Jews around the world have to do with the actions of the Israel government?

That's the part that you still have not explained.

[azurnoir]

14. Is Israel not the sole Jewish State?

Are at least 99% of Jews world wide not allowed automatic citizenship to Israel because they are Jews also known as Right of Return? under these circumstances some could mistake the actions of Israel being done to benefit Jews world wide and there are posters here that claim Hamas is not just out to kill Israeli's but every Jew on the face of the earth it could be an easy mistake to make

[oberliner]

22. So what?

None of that has anything to do with why "Jews around the world" need to be shamed into speaking out.

A Jew living in Seattle is more responsible for what is going on than a non-Jew living in Seattle?

[azurnoir]

23. No but a Jew living anywhere

speaking out tends to carry weight than a non-Jew the latter can be dismissed as antisemitism the former is a bit more tricky not that it will stop anyone it just becomes more difficult.

[oberliner]

24. Jews are as capable of anti-semitism as anyone else

Bobby Fischer being one of the more well-known examples.

In any case, Jewish people around the world are not responsible for the actions of the Israeli government and should not be pressured or shamed into speaking about the actions of that government.

[azurnoir]

25. I will agree about the pressured or shamed part.

Bobby Fischer? Are you speaking of the chess master?

[LeftishBrit]

43. Yes, Bobby Fischer the chess master

Despite his brilliance at chess, he was not a mentally healthy person overall, and full of conspiracy theories that featured 'the Jews', despite being ethnically Jewish himself.

[azurnoir]

51. Thanks never heard of him as anything

but a chess master that makes it doubly sad

[rundownman]

30. I personally think you are wrong fwiw

Israel was established for people of jewish ancestry, nevermind the fact that some people were already living there and would have to be moved out of the way first.

I fear truthfully the times we are entering and I fear even greater what may become of jews worldwide and israel in particular if jews DON'T speak out against what is happening.

Think about that for a second I will look forward to your response.

[oberliner]

35. Anyone who would blame Jews around the world for the actions of the Israeli government is deranged

Or they are just looking for a reason to hate Jews or have some scapegoat for the own problems.

[rundownman]

37. You're probably right, but the average person in the world does not have a very high IQ

Think about it...

[TomClash]

17. It claims to be the jewish state

It claims to be a homeland for the jewish people. It was established as a place from which jews could escape persecution from around the world. If it isn't - and I think it is and should remain so - why does it exist? It is the moral reason for its existence. If it exists in your name and it is immoral - wouldn't you want to change that?

[oberliner]

21. So therefore Jews around the world are responsible for the Israeli government's actions?

Because someone is Jewish they are somehow more obligated to speak out about the actions of the Israeli government?

I think your premise is deeply troubling.

It's the sort of linkage that creates an environment where an attack on a Jewish Center in Seattle is made to protest "Israeli crimes".

[TomClash]

27. For the fourth time

Your conclusion is logically flawed. The point is to secure a nonviolent change in Israeli policy, so an attack on a jewish center in Seattle would do nothing to make that point -in fact, it would be counterproductive. I don't see how the premise is troubling - no one says jews are obligated to accept or support or criticise Israel. But you cannot support Israeli policies, claim it is the jewish homeland and accept no responsibility for the policies because you are not Israeli - that's illogical.

I noticed you failed to answer the question I posed to you.

[oberliner]

33. Let me try to clarify

Your goal in saying that Jews around the world should be shamed into speaking about the actions of the government of Israel may be to secure a nonviolent change in Israeli policy.

However, the result of that claim is to link Jews around the world with the actions government of Israel.

This linkage provides justification for those who have anger at Israel to take out that anger against Jews around the world, as in the Seattle Jewish Community Center shooting.

Furthermore, it blurs the line between criticizing Israel and criticizing Jews. If one criticizes the policies of Israel are Jews around the world also not being criticized as well, since, by your reckoning, they share some responsibility for those actions?

Your suggestion is that Jews around the world share some of the blame for the actions of the Israeli government (if they didn't why would they feel ashamed?)

Can you understand, then, why you premise would be troubling?

I assumed your questions were rhetorical ones and that is why I did not answer, but here's how I would respond. Why does Israel exist? It exists because it exists. It is no more immoral than most of the countries of the world, including the one I live in (United States).

[TomClash]

44. I understand your point

And you may be right - perhaps "shamed" is the wrong word. But isn't there a linkage already? Doesn't the influence of some American jews in turn affect the policy of the US?

To say Israel exists because it exists is shocking and disingenuous. Herzl and Ben Gurion would be rolling in their graves. It was created for an express purpose - as a haven for oppressed jews around the world, a place to go to escape the pogroms, antisemitism, discrimination, the Holocaust and any future yet unseen tragedy. To deny this is to deny zionism and Israel's reason for its existence. That seems pretty close to Ahmadinejad territory.

[oberliner]

58. Israel is a reality

It exists - it's a country. That's why it exists. I don't understand why that would make anyone turn over in their graves or what that has to do with Ahmadinejad.

I am fairly confident that Herzl and Ben Gurion would be pleased to know that Israel does not need to justify its existence as a country.

If you were to ask what its founding principles were or how it views itself in the international community today then those would be different questions.

In any case, I'm glad you understand my other point (even if you don't totally agree).

Certainly there are some American Jews who influence policy decisions in the US, but there are many more American Jews who don't.

[TomClash]

60. I don't get it

If Israel is just "reality" or "a country," then Israel's Jewish identity is irrelevant. That means you must be open to a one state solution in all of Palestine.

The primary reason for discussing a two state solution is to ensure Israel retains its Jewish identity, a means of escape from the diaspora and other political and cultural reasons related to that identity. Otherwise, it makes no sense.

[Vegasaurus]

61. Israel is a reality as a Jewish homeland

not as another Muslim theocracy.

But it doesn't mean that most Jews worldwide will ever live there, or even visit.

[oberliner]

62. A country's identity is very important

Why not just have the West Bank become part of Jordan and Gaza become part of Egypt?

That proposal does not take into an account the fact that there is a Palestinian national identity.

Similarly, there is an Israeli national identity.

I don't believe that most Israelis or Palestinians wish to give that up.

That's one of the many reasons why the best solution is two states living side by side at peace with one another.

Why doesn't Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia, Slovenia, and Macedonia re-unite into Yugoslavia again?

[TomClash]

63. Really?

What is "Israel's identity?"

Your attempt to finesse this issue isn't working.

[oberliner]

64. I honestly do not understand what you are getting at

I don't even know what "issue" I am attempting to finesse!

My only claim is that Israel exists as a country and that no one is responsible for the actions of the Israeli government other than the Israeli government and to some extent those Israelis who voted the politicians in.

Do you disagree with this?

[rundownman]

32. Judging from your other posts, can jewish people or Israel EVER do anything wrong?

Of course I mean can they ever do anything wrong to a non-jewish person? Like a catholic or a pagan or a muslim?

[oberliner]

34. Judging from what other posts?

I completely oppose Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza and support the creation of an independent Palestinian state.

[rundownman]

38. the one on this page..Why did you not answer my question?

Why did you not answer my question?

[oberliner]

39. I did answer your question

I'm very critical of many of the actions of the Israeli government, including the entire occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.

Yes, Jewish people and Israelis have done things wrong if that is your question.

[rundownman]

46. I will clarify

Can israelis and israel do anything wrong to anyone who is not an israeli?

If your answer is no, that is a horrible way to think about other people.

[LeftishBrit]

49. WhatEVER gave you the impression that Oberliner thinks this?

I can't think of any post where he, of all people, has remotely implied this.

Does "Jews are not responsible for everything Israel does" somehow equate with "Jews and Israelis can do no wrong"?

Of course Jews and Israelis can do wrong. Human beings, whatever the ethnic group or nationality, do wrong a great deal of the time. But non-Israeli Jews are not collectively responsible for all that Israel does. Should all Muslims be held responsible for everything that Saudi Arabia does? Should all Catholics be held responsible for the fact that Berlusconi is a crook?

[LeftishBrit]

45. Do you think that Muslims have a similar duty to speak out about the actions of Islamic states?

I think that in practice, those who have some links with a country are more likely to be interested in its actions. However, I don't think they are more obliged to act than others - as citizens of the world, I think we all have a duty to speak up when injustices are done.

And I honestly think that many people here totally overestimate the willingness of the hawks of any country to listen to non-citizens, even those of the same ethnic group: "You have no right to criticize when you don't live here". Not that people in general can't make some difference by expressing their views; but non-Israeli Jews don't have a special inside track to the Israeli government.

[rundownman]

47. Yes, of course

If muslims act in a horrible fashion then muslims around the world should condemn the actions.

Infact, shortly after 911 I remember seeing a local gas station that was run by a muslim family, they had lit up the store with American flags and put up a sign saying "we support america and condemn these acts".

I had a conversation with the man and he seemed ashamed over what happened and I told him it wasn't him that did it and I am glad he was speaking out against what happened!

Also, when was the last time gaza used american planes to kill 500 israelis and maim over a thousand?

There is a right and a wrong and this was wrong. do not be afraid to speak up against someone doing something as wrong as this.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

54. However at a national or group level the condemnation is not there

Taliban (Whabbi Islam) are destroying schools for girls and killing teachers who violate the Sharia as they see it in Afganistan. The Shias leadership, who think it is fine to educate women, are saying nothing publically. There is no loud or effective condemnation to be heard of Arab and Muslim atrocities. In fact we are often told its not our issue, its their culture. Balance matter. Right now there is none.

Many of the killed and wounded were Hamas, not civilians, though clearly there were civilian deaths. Its also at 300, not 500 as I type this. Facts matter.

[TomClash]

59. Yes, but it is not symmetrical

There is only one jewish state. There are many muslim states.

I agree that all people have a duty to speak up and non-Israeli jews do not have a special track to the Israeli government. But the collective voice of jews worldwide is especially important because that is a voice Israel cannot ignore, for ignoring that voice would undermine its own existence.

[azurnoir]

12. He said "done in their name"

which is the same as Muslims extremists claiming that they are doing things in the name of all Muslims and just about as true

[NaturalHigh]

7. Blame the Jews...

What a novel approach. It seems like it might have been tried a few times in the past, though...

[TomClash]

9. Oh, please stop this ridiculous canard

No one is "blaming the jews." I am calling on the Palestinians to stop the killing first - without that there is no progress because then the Israelis will always use that as a justification to continue the occupation. Then I am calling for moral pressure to be put on jews around the world - specifically in the US - home of AIPAC and other partial obstacles to peace and justice - to do justice and help resolve this conflict by pressuring their own governments and the state established in their name.

Do you have a better idea?

[oberliner]

13. Moral pressure to be put on Jews around the world?

You are feeding into the idea that Jews living all over the world are somehow responsible for the actions of the Israeli government.

[TomClash]

18. I am not

And they are not. See my other posts here.

[rundownman]

31. OH give me a break.

so jewish people are incapable of doing wrong? is this because they are the "chosen" race or for that matter the "master" race?

I am a pagan so maybe I can see things without bias, but for me, that is what you just said.

[NaturalHigh]

65. Where did I say that ANYONE is incapable of doing wrong?

Where did I even imply that?

[LeftishBrit]

66. Where do you go from the idea...

that 'world Jewry should not be blamed for the actions of Israel' to the idea that 'Jews can do no wrong'? The one has nothing to do with the other.

And I have NEVER come across anyone who thought the Jews were a 'master race'; and the phrase 'chosen race' means 'chosen to perform certain duties', not 'chosen for favour'. As an atheist, I don't use the term anyway; but it doesn't mean what you are implying.

I don't think Jews have collective responsibility for everything that any individual Jew does, or that the Israeli government does. I don't think that Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims have that sort of collective responsibility. Or British or Americans either - or are you happy to be blamed for Bush's war just because you're American?

[LeftishBrit]

41. Israel's actions are not done in the name of 'Jews round the world'

We don't have a vote in Israel; we don't appreciate being held responsible for everything Israel does.

Any more than Muslims round the world should be held responsible for everything that any Muslim state or group does.

[rundownman]

48. Be truthfull

If you wanted to go to Israel this day and vote, you could its called the right of return.

[LeftishBrit]

50. No. I could emigrate to Israel if I chose, because of the R of R...

but I would not be a citizen until I had gone through the process of immigration, and obtained formal citizenship and lived in Israel for at least a few months.

I can't just hop on a plane and cast my vote in Israel because I'm a Jew (if I were, I might do so, just to keep Netanyahu out!) I would have to emigrate properly, same as with any other country. Israel cannot refuse me the right to immigrate if I choose, short of certain extreme circumstances; but I would still need to go through the process.

[rundownman]

52. I see, maybe not THIS exact day but the point remains.

Anyway I heard there were some protests in London aganst the gaza invasion? How large are they I surely hope they are large enough to ge the attention of the british government, I know there is a large muslim population in Britian.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

53. Yes there was a demonstration and yes, no one in Government really cared

[LeftishBrit]

56. Yes, I could if I wanted to give up being British.But I don't.

Yes, there was a moderately big demo. About 700 people. However, if the HUGE demos against the Iraw war didn't change government policy, I doubt this will. But in fact, British politicians have been calling for a ceasefire.

[rundownman]

57. I though a democracy was suppose to represent the will of the people

is this not the case anymore?

[stranger81]

68. but nary a word about Israel's fulfilled promise this week to kill Hamas leaders?

From AP GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Israeli warplanes rained more than 100 tons of bombs on security installations in Hamas-ruled Gaza on Saturday, killing at least 230 people in one of the bloodiest days in decades of the mideast conflict. The government said the open-ended campaign was aimed at stopping rocket and mortar attacks that have traumatized southern Israel.



But there was no end in sight. Israel warned it might go after Hamas' leaders, and militants kept pelting Israel with rockets _ killing at least one Israeli and wounding six.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/27/israel-launches-air-strik_n_153664.html

The 230 Palestinians killed in the Israeli air raid on Gaza on Saturday included three senior Hamas officers: Tawfik Jabber, the commander of Hamas' police force in Gaza; his adjutant, Ismail al-Ja'abri, commander of the defense and security directorate; and Abu-Ahmad Ashur, Hamas' Gaza central district governor.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050449.html

This kind of a double-standard -- offered up in a contextual vacuum -- is just ridiculous.

[High Plains]

69. What's good for the goose...

Israel has practiced a policy of political assassination for decades.