Egyptian border guards opened fire to drive back the Palestinians

[sixmile]

From Haaretz
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050618.html
"Gaza residents on Sunday breached the border fence with Egypt in several places and hundreds have crossed the frontier prompting Egyptian border guards to open fire, said officials and witnesses on both sides of the border. The breach came one day after Israel launched the largest Israeli offensive on the Gaza Strip since it captured the territory in 1967, leaving some 286 people dead and scores wounded."

The Palestinian people are in an un escapable death grip. Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide. The collective conscious of humanity should hide its head in shame.

[aquart]

1. Or ask why nobody wants these people living next door.

Could it be that their leaders made a decision NOT to go Gandhi? To respond to all problems with violence?

And that nothing their leadership has done since has proved otherwise? Why don't they all have Transjordan passports? Why are they hated in Lebanon? Jordan? Egypt?

Tell me, what happens to pacifist Palestinians? What happens to Palestinians who want peace with Israel?

And ask yourself why you expect Americans, who left hundreds of homelands behind us, to feel for the endless "Palestinian" pity party.

[IndianaGreen]

2. What you are saying about Palestinians, was said about Jews.

The children of the oppressed, have become oppressors themselves.

[Statistical]

4. So the JEWS made the ARABS shoot at the Palestinans? Wow those JEWS sure are evil. (n/t)

[IndianaGreen]

5. Spare me the "perennial victim" mantra that some use to defend Israel

Are you blinded by your own dogmas that you can't see that the best thing Israel can do is get out of all lands taken in 1967, immediately and unconditionally? Were Israel to leave occupied Palestine with the same speed as the Russians left Afghanistan, guess what will happen? You'll end up with two Palestinian states at odds with one another. The Gazans have nothing in common with their West Bank brethren, they will become another Pakistan/Bangladesh split.

[Statistical]

6. Really? Care to explain how # of rocket attacks has increased 5 fold since they pulled out of Gaza

US and world urged Israel to withdraw from Gaza and allow Palestinians self rule.

They did in 2005 and since then # of rockets striking Israel has increased from 150-200 range to the 800-900 range.

Before you talking about settlement this and settlement that. The border fence sits on the "green line" established in 1949.

If these attacks had come from West Bank you MIGHT have an argument however a heavy military pressence has kept the West Bank relatively quiet. Israel did everything asked dealing with Gaza territory and every inch given Hamas used to further facilitate more violence.

[IndianaGreen]

7. How many Israelis killed by Gazan rockets vs Palestinians killed by Israeli bombs?

Israel's disproportionate response, similar to the Lebanon fiasco, is in the same league as America killing over 200 innocent civilians for each WTC casualty.

[Statistical]

8. Conflicts general involve disproptionate responses.

They always have. We won WWII because of the disproportionate response of our bombing campaign on Berlin. Near the end we were dropping 12 tons of bombs for each ton of munition they were building.

Changing the topic doesn't eliminate your statement that if Israel withdrew to its old borders everything would be fine.

Gaza = 1949 border = massive amounts of attacks. Increase in violence.
West Bank = not 1949 border and massive military presence = relatively quiet.

Your conclusion is not based on any facts.

Gaza was safer to Israel BEFORE they withdrew in 2005. They withdrew in 2005 under promises that once Palestinians would have self rule the two entities could normalize relationships. The reverse happened, yet somehow you believe if Israel just withdraws more magically it will turn around.

[IndianaGreen]

9. There you go, spewing Bibi's bullshit line about retrenching on land-for-peace

It is the Occupation itself that poses the threat to Israel's existence. End it, before it ends you!

[Statistical]

10. Gaza hasn't been occupied for 3 years. It likely will be in the future though (n/t)

[IndianaGreen]

11. And what will that gain Israel, except to bleed her dry at the American taxpayers' expense?

Since you don't like my idea of having Israel unilaterally withdraw from lands taken in 1967, here is my Plan B: Annex all lands taken in 1967, give full citizenship to Palestinians (including the right to vote), hold new elections, and let a new government take power.

[Statistical]

12. I do think long term Israel needs to return to the 1949 "green line"

The question is how do they get there.

Gaza showed them handing over control doesn't work which is sad.

Israel gave up virtually all control of Gaza.
Israel maintains an iron fist on West Bank.

If we were seeing violence in West Bank and cooperation in Gaza I think it would persuade Israel to move towards a full withdraw.

Sadly the violence is coming mostly from Gaza which is going to encourage them to move towards occupation.

I don't know the answer.

[Madam Mossfern]

14. I am so sorry to disagree

but what about before the 6 day war? Do you not remember that the nations surrounding Israel were hellbent on destroying the nation? Do you really think that all aggression and attacks on Israel will cease if Israel retreats to the pre 1967 borders?

Actually Israel's existence threatens Israel's existence.

BTW I have never been a 'staunch' Israel supporter, just thinking realistically.

[sixmile]

3. Clearly you don't live in Palestine

and yet are very passionate on the subject.
"These people" - your words. Therein lies the dilemma.
Do you agree with collective punishment for the deeds of a few?

[ikojo]

13. What IndianaGreen is saying is that the European

countries asked the same question about Jews back in the day. Nothing anti semitic in his/her response, just historical fact. Many Europeans wondered what it was about Jews that caused them to be kicked out of almost every country.