Gaza Update: Cluster Bombs?

[Idealism]

http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/04/gaza-update-cluster-bombs/">Is Israel Using Cluster Bombs?

There’s more evidence today of http://firedoglake.com/2009/01/03/gaza-update-nowhere-to-hide/">Israeli use of cluster bombs, originally noted by Laura Doty at http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/2777">Oxdown. The Times of London features a photo in it’s coverage (see Gaza Conflict slide show) with the following description:

An artillery round sends out bomblets above Gaza City, which continues to be attacked by Israeli forces

The use of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_bomb">cluster bombs - which have a large footprint when initially dropped and then remain a threat for decades - in a location like the Gaza Strip which is so packed with people is horrifying.

Conditions in Gaza http://palestinemonitor.org/spip/spip.php?article761">continue to worsen:

Since the beginning of the Israeli invasion, 500 people in Gaza were killed, of which approximately 70 children and 27 women. By now, a total of 2,650 Gazans are injured of which more than 270 children and 650 women. Despite the Israeli recurrent discourse, facts are clear and Israel’s war has mainly been conducted against civilians.

The medical and health situation in Gaza is on the edge of collapse, facing a severe lack of vital medical supplies. Surgeries are now made without anaesthesias or sterile equipment, as anaesthetics, sterile medical gloves or needles are sometimes no longer available.

The heath sector in Gaza was already qualified as ‘in crisis’ before the beginning of the Israeli attacks and is now overloaded with severe injured and traumas resulting from the air strikes and ground operation. Before the beginning of the recent crisis, 105 medicines for severe and chronic diseases were reported lacking. All basic medical supplies are lacking, and the situation has worsened since the main warehouse stocking medicines in Gaza was bombed last week.

The 13 governmental hospitals from Gaza provide 1,500 beds and chronic patients such as suffering from hearth problems or cancers were sent home. Half of the 60 ambulances available in the Strip are out of order, struck by Israeli strikes.

And as the http://www.imemc.org/article/58310">International Middle East Media Center notes:

It is worth mentioning that the official number of casualties could be much higher than reported, as dozens of wounded residents who suffered mild or even moderate injuries were release without registration due to the overcrowded hospitals as the Israeli offensive continues.

In related news, Israel announced on Sunday that it will not allow humanitarian aid into the Gaza Strip, due to the ongoing ground offensive. Israeli security officials said that the Israeli security would decide in the coming days whether to allow trucks carrying humanitarian aid to enter the Gaza Strip.

It’s also important to remember that while sources identify a large number of the dead and wounded as men, by no means are all men Hamas fighters. Many are just like Laila Al-Arian’s grandfather and http://a-mother-from-gaza.blogspot.com/2008/12/gaza-city-under-heavy-bombardment.html">Laila El-Haddad’s father:

I see the number on my caller ID; my heart races. I answer my cell phone.

"We ...are under..heavy bombardment. Heavy bombardment" says my father in terrified, articulated syllables.

"They are bombing the Legislative Council building next to our house. They are bombing just down our street."

"Baba...are you safe, are you both safe??" I ask, not knowing what else to say.

"I have to go now..I have to go...i just wanted to tell you that..but I have to go..." he stammers. And the line goes dead.

And today, both are looking for safety under a rain of cluster bombs, dropped by Israel, bought and sold by us. Last night, the US blocked – once again – a call for a cease-fire at the UN Security Council, today Senate “leaders” Harry Reid, Dick Durbin and Mitch McConnell were “standing solidly behind Israel's ground operation against Hamas.”

Let’s make sure they hear where we stand.

(A very big H/T to Michael Braymen who made the map above - it is the best I've seen for understanding just how small Gaza is - and so how vulnerable the 1.5 million people who live there are.)

[Taverner]

1. SEE!!!! SEE!!!

Last week someone posted that there were no cluster bombs being used...

This is obviously incorrect

[Idealism]

2. It isn't a fact, but there is evidence

It is also noteworthy that Israel is among the countries that refused to sign a ban on Cluster Bombs (The U.S. is also on that list).

[Taverner]

4. Yes, your latter point is especially troubling

Cluster Bombs are horrible things that aren't accurate and have way too much collateral damage.

[Idealism]

6. That linger long after the war has passed, as well

Up to 20 years, I hear..

[EFerrari]

16. Amy recently reported that southern Lebanon now has one of the highest concentration

of unexploded cluster bombs in the world.

Dear God.

[Arrowhead2k1]

43. The war is never 'over' for Israel, so that's not a problem...

[parasim]

10. Indeed they are horrible. In my view, cluster bombs are equal to torture.

So obviously I don't understand why more people don't take a stand against cluster bombs as they do torture.

Cluster bombing is insidious. Evil, if you accept that term. As far as I can tell, cluster bombing exists for no other reason than to inflict death upon civilians. Particularly children.

Does anybody have any sort of rational reason why these weapons exist?

[Idealism]

11. Their brutal effectiveness being the only reason

They instill such fear in the population, laying dormant for years until someone happens to find them under rocks or such. There are many tales of Vietnamese children, decades after the war ended, who found submunitions and thought they were toys and had limbs blown clear off.

[Taverner]

21. I saw this in Vietnam

I was over there in the 90's, right after sanctions were lifted - and this was indeed the case. Most of the beggars were kids who had limbs blown off.

I also got to see Cambodia, which didn't fare any better. Some of it by direct human torture.

[parasim]

49. I'll never the image of Cynthia McKinney...

Holding up a yellow packet of food ration in one hand and a yellow-colored cluster bomb in the other.

These are insidious weapons. They kill children. They are designed to kill children.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

51. And she was wrong...

Cluster sub munitions were International Yellow well before those food packets were ever thought of. Blame the food packet guys for that one.

The sub munitions all supposed to go off during the initial strike. The remainders are "duds" but are still unstable and clearly dangerous. They were not designed to target children.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

54. Actually that is not and never was the intent

Sub munitions are optimal for certain target types, including rocket launchers. The sub munitions are all supposted to detonate as part of the original strikes, but there is some level of failure. Israeli made sub munitions are claiming a failure rate of less than 1%, the older US ones are higher.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

53. You need to learn more about ordance before making such blanket statements

sub munitions are the right choice artillery, troops, even rocket launchers, which are generally in the open and dispersed. Sub munitions are supposed to all go off with the original strike. Older US ones had a much larger one that the newer Israeli made ones which claim a less than 1% failure rate.

Sub munitions are colored a bright yellow to make them easy to see and avoid any duds.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

52. What makes you think they are inaccurate?

Their accuracy is driven by the delivery system. Collateral damage is a function of where they are targeted.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

50. See what?

I was one of those who said that there was no evidence of them being used at that time. Even now there is still is no evidence that they are being used. Read the original source email...the actually words are:

The heavy deadly bombings focused on four areas in Khan Yonis, Gaza and the north cities. The artillery shells engaged in the continued strikes with more new tactics. New shells are used for the first time. Eyewitnesses reported that new shells explode before landing on the targets making more small bombs. The shells are expected to be cluster bombs.

More Israeli new weapons are used today. Palestinians in Khan Yonis massively called the radio stations and health centers to report on a bad smell goes out from the rockets in Khan Yonis City. People are afraid this kind of weapon is shells enriched with Uranium and nuclear elements.

Until there are some picture of duds in context or an admission by Israel, statements of "the shells are expected" or that "People are afraid..." are not evidence.

You are reading in more that is there and giving credence to the unsupported.


However...there is an article in Haaretz that does say cluster munitions. Again, I am waiting for a cited source or pictures, but it does give the argument some support

[Orrex]

3. In war, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using cluster bombs

I mean, if the US refuses to sign a treaty banning them, they must be just dandy, right? And I'm sure that neither the US nor its allies would ever dream of using these dandy weapons anywhere near civilians.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

55. They are used for certain target types since they are the most effective

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

8. It would Surprise Me, Sir

If sub-munition ordnance were not being used on the front and flanks of the ground advance; they are very effective weapons for supressing infantry.

[Duckhunter935]

12. That could be

But remember sir that they also could wound or kill friendly forces if you move into that area

[Idealism]

13. I don't think the IDF will occupy every street in Gaza

If they have a true purpose it will be in the government compounds which means they should be able to avoid whole parts of the Strip.

[Warren Stupidity]

14. their stated purpose is to liquidate the Hamas government

and clear out the missile launching areas. I don't see how either can be accomplished without a complete and extensive re-occupation of Gaza, and I don't see how that can be accomplished without turning Gaza into a killing field.

Optimistically this all could be a big bloody show with no real objectives. In that case, after a few days of awful slaughter, the IDF will pull out and declare victory.

[Idealism]

9. That may not be the correct picture

The description was clear on the FDL website:

The Times of London features a photo in it’s coverage (see Gaza Conflict slide show) with the following description:

An artillery round sends out bomblets above Gaza City, which continues to be attacked by Israeli forces



FDL also goes on to say the picture they had online at that time was apparently verified by a member of VoteVets as being standard description http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DPICM">DPICM's (Cluster Bombs):

(h/t Brandon of VoteVets who points in email to this description of the weapons seen)

They possibly changed the description they wrote of the picture, knowing what "bomblets" means or they may have taken the picture off the site completely. I don't exactly blindly trust the IDF to tell us that they haven't used cluster bombs, because they still deny using them in Lebanon in 2006 (even when they did, several thousand pounds of them even after the truce).

[CTuttle]

22. That's not 'smoke' bombs...

That's Willie Pete... White Phosphorous...! :grr:

[Duckhunter935]

31. I think you are right but also wrong on that

They are smoke

Smoke projectiles are used for smoke screens, obscuring smoke, and marking targets for aircraft.

The three types of smoke projectiles areas follows:

(1) Hexachloroethane. Hexachloroethane (HC) smoke (smk) projectiles are available for 105-mm and 155-mm howitzers. They are used for screening, obscuration, spotting, and signaling purposes. The projectile has no casualty-producing effects. This base-ejection projectile is ballistically simailar to the HE projectile. It is fitted with a mechanical time fuze M565 or M577. The round expels smoke canisters that emit smoke for a period of 40 to 90 seconds.

(2) Burster-type white phosphorus. White phosphorus projectiles are available for 105-mm and 155-mm howitzers. They are bursting-tube type projectiles that can be fired with point-detonating (PD) or MTSQ fuzes. The projectile has an incendiary-producing effect and is ballistically similar to the HE projectile. Normally, shell WP is employed for its incendiary effect. The projectile also can be used for screening, spotting, and signaling purposes.

(3) M825 white phosphorus. The M825 WP projectile is an FA-delivered 155-mm base-ejection projectile designed to produce a smoke screen on the ground for a duration of 5 to 15 minutes. It consists of two major components--the projectile carrier and the payload. The projectile carrier delivers the payload to the target. The payload consists of 116 WP-saturated felt wedges. The smoke screen is produced when a predetermined fuze action causes ejection of the payload from the projectile. After ejection, the WP-saturated felt wedges in the payload fall to the ground in an elliptical pattern. Each wedge then becomes a point or source of smoke. The M825 is ballistically similar to the M483A1 (DPICM) family of projectiles.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/smoke.htm

[GoesTo11]

38. I think that's the flying spaghetti monster

Just one more religion added to the conflict.

[Sezu]

7. But have they started poisoning the wells and

thrwing the babies from their incubators yet. The evil creatures.

:sarcasm:

[stillcool]

15. nah..just dead people..

it's all the rage these days, a real blast. Might makes Right!!

[zane25]

17. It's war, never pretty but sometimes necessary

Not that I agree with it, but if you are going to do it do it right and complete the mission. It is becoming obvious that there is only one way to solve the problem, and one might just get what they didn't want.

[azurnoir]

18. So killing lots of Palestinians is the only way? n/t

[zane25]

19. It's not about right or wrong

It's about survival, It's a waiting game. If you took every weapon the Israeli's have would the war be over? No, the Palestinians would wipe Israel off the map. Israel has time on their side. The oil and influence will not last forever, and when it starts to diminish what do you think will happen to the Palestinian people?

[azurnoir]

24. LOL it always either or for you Pro's

cause that is all you have, all you want considered it does not work has never worked and will not work now. As far as oil and influence the Palestinians have none, oh yes there is a large natural gas deposit off the coast of Gaza the real reason IMO that Israel is blockading the those waters, but it is nice to see another Pro who advocates for killing and broad brushes all Palestinians as terrorist speaks of either your total lack of knowledge or willingness to be dishonest

[Sezu]

20. If they wanted to kill lots of Palestinians

the numbers would be much higher. How many times must this be explained to you and others? Your persistance suggestion that Israel is in the business of killing Palestinians is getting old. Decry the deaths like any normal person but cease with the unneeded demonization.

[Taverner]

23. Look - both sides have the magnanimous hobby of killing each other off

Hence: problem

Right now, Israel is exacting revenge that is a bit lopsided

You seem to think they are only killing the bad guys

That is not the case with Cluster Bombs

[zane25]

25. Do you think it matters?

Israel will do what is best for it's purported security, don't provoke a deadly enemy if you are not prepared for the respose. Not saying it's right, but if you think your cornered what would you do?

[Taverner]

26. Well shit they could launch a nuke if they really felt threatened

My beef is: don't

[azurnoir]

29. Well no Israel couldn't nuke them

not really its a "proximity" problem and as we've been told so often Israels not suicidal

[zane25]

30. Why would they do that?

Keep plugging away at the leadership for now. Later when the oil money isn't so plentifull they will have the upper hand. Who will help the Palestinians when the rest of the middle east is looking for the next meal ticket?

[azurnoir]

28. I was addressing the contents of a post

and my "persistent suggestion" that Israel is in the business of killing Palestinians? But do keep trying your false accusations never get old I find them quite entertaining in fact

[EFerrari]

32. Not only Israel but the US is also in the business of killing Palestinians.

Deny it all you like. The numbers speak for themselves.

[zane25]

33. Really?

If it was your family in the line of fire you would lay down and just take the rockets as a sign of unhappyness from the Palestinians?

[EFerrari]

34. What a ridiculous question.

[zane25]

35. No common sense

It isn't right or wrong, if you see your fellow countryman having to suffer rocket attacks on a daily basis what do you do? Get your head out of your duffel bag and look at reality. Something has to be done. Do you have a better idea to deal with someone who wont be satisfied till you and your entire country are destroyed?

[EFerrari]

36. This is an argument so stupid that I can't believe all the people that continue

to make it.

No Israeli is more safe today, genius.

No Israeli will ever be more safe because of this offensive or because of any similar ones.

[zane25]

39. Ok smart guy

Tell me what is your brilliant idea to conclude hostilities between the Israeli's and Palestinian people? Will the Palestinians ever find a way to accept the existance of Israel without the need to launch rockets. When will food become more of a need than components for rockets?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

57. Food, Fuel and Medical supplies were already more needed than weapons

However, Hamas wanted rockets.

[azurnoir]

40. This genius "newbie" is on another thread

talking about Palestinians "facing a final solution"

[zane25]

41. I don't agree with any of it

But what do you expect to happen? If it were my choice there would be a lasting peace in the middle east. I don't like the killing or war, but I am realistic. At some point things will come to a head and someone will win this conflict. I don't see how two factions hell bent on on the elimination of the other can end any other way. Either get serious about peace or get seroius about the war. Who wins in an all out fight?

[EFerrari]

45. Lovely.

[Duckhunter935]

37. Thank you

[Duckhunter935]

42. Lets try something new

Hamas recognizes the right of Israel to exist
Israel stops the blockades and shooting
The palistinians stop all rocket/morter suicide bombings
both live in peace

[deminks]

27. Haaretz: massive artillary including cluster bombs

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052331.html

(snip)

The ground invasion was preceded by large-scale artillery shelling from around 4 P.M., intended to "soften" the targets as artillery batteries deployed along the Strip in recent days began bombarding Hamas targets and open areas near the border. Hundreds of shells were fired, including cluster bombs aimed at open areas.

(end snip)

via Think Progress

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/01/04/israel-cluster-bombs/

[Idealism]

44. How thoughtful of the Israeli's

[WeDidIt]

46. What they are claiming to be cluster bombs are, in fact, smoke bombs.

Israel isn't using cluster bombs in Gaza. At least, no evidence has been presented that they are doing so.

I'd also doubt seriously they would use them as unexploded ordinance can easily be worked into an IED.

One further note of interest, Gaza is approximately half the size of the city of Chicago.

[Idealism]

47. According to Haaretz they are

[WeDidIt]

48. Haaretz is as full of shit as World Nut Daily n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

56. Haaretz is more liberal than the Jpost

Then there is Ynet, which I think is now web only. All of them are decent for real time facts, with various levels of opinion. Regardless the Israeli media has a very diverse set of authors they publish in Op-Ed than just about any place else in the world, including the US.

Right now all we have is a passing reference in a Haaretz article and some emotional comment from an email. I don't consider that verified at this point.

Sub munitions were a really big deal in Lebanon. I doubt that the Israelis will use them here for that reason if nothing else. However, its a topic that should be watched closely.