Account of Israeli attack doesn't hold up to scrutiny

[hack89]

Most people remember the headlines: Massacre Of Innocents As UN School Is Shelled; Israeli Strike Kills Dozens At UN School. They heralded the tragic news of Jan. 6, when mortar shells fired by advancing Israeli forces killed 43 civilians in the Jabalya refugee camp in the Gaza Strip. The victims, it was reported, had taken refuge inside the Ibn Rushd Preparatory School for Boys, a facility run by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency.

There was just one problem: The story, as etched in people's minds, was not quite accurate.

Physical evidence and interviews with several eyewitnesses, including a teacher who was in the schoolyard at the time of the shelling, make it clear: While a few people were injured from shrapnel landing inside the white-and-blue-walled UNRWA compound, no one in the compound was killed. The 43 people who died in the incident were all outside, on the street, where all three mortar shells landed.

Stories of one or more shells landing inside the schoolyard were inaccurate.

While the killing of 43 civilians on the street may itself be grounds for investigation, it falls short of the act of shooting into a schoolyard crowded with refuge-seekers.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090129.wgazaschool29/BNStory/International/home

[Arctic Dave]

1. Does it make it ok then?

[hack89]

3. No - just pointing out that much of the "truth" is distorted

and that like most wars, the truth will slowly emerge. Remember the Jenin "massacre"?
You will see a more balance accounting as Hamas' crimes also emerge.

[Arctic Dave]

5. I agree "truth" during war is as rare as unicorns.

Unfortunately niether side seems at all willing to avoid blowing each other up.

[DogPoundPup]

2. The Israeli strike was one of three on U.N. school properties in Gaza

The Israeli strike was one of three on U.N. school properties in Gaza since Monday. An Israeli artillery shell struck an empty boys school in Jabalya on Tuesday, and an Israeli airstrike killed three men at an elementary school being used as a shelter in Gaza City on Monday, a U.N. agency said.

The United Nations called for an independent investigation into all three strikes.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/06/israel.gaza/index.html

[hack89]

4. The accounts will slowly change over time

as is the case with most war reporting. Remember the Jenin "massacre"?

[DogPoundPup]

6. Ah yes, the Jenin incursion

During fighting in the Jenin refugee camp, more than half the Palestinian dead were civilians. There was compelling evidence that Israeli soldiers targeted civilians, including Fadwa Jamma, a Palestinian nurse shot dead as she tried to treat a wounded man. A 14-year-old boy was killed by Israeli tank-fire in a crowded street after the curfew was lifted. A Palestinian in a wheelchair was shot dead, and his body was crushed by an Israeli tank.

Israeli soldiers prevented ambulances from reaching the wounded and refused the Red Cross access. Using bulldozers, the Israeli army demolished an entire neighborhood– home to 800 Palestinian families – reducing it to dust and rubble.

Israeli troops at first found they could not get their tanks and armored vehicles into the narrow alleys of the refugee camp, so they bulldozed wide swaths through houses to get them in.

Edited to four paragraphs to conform to DU's fair use of copyrighted material

Lithos
DU Moderator

"They took me from my house and forced me to open the door and took everything I have: money, checks, dollars, shekels," Assar said. "They didn't leave me anything except for the rubblemore...http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/09/20/africa/ME_GEN_Israel_Palestinian_Money.php

zYes, I remember Jenin. Strange you should want to mention it.

[hack89]

7. Remember how the death toll plummeted

once unbiased reporters started to investigate?

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

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[oberliner]

10. 23 Israelis and 52 Palestinians died in the Battle of Jenin

Palestinian sources initially claimed that 500 Palestinians had been killed.

Other sources erroneously reported that a wide-scale "massacre" had taken place in Jenin.

Those reports turned out to be false. The accurate reports came out several months later:

UN says no massacre in Jenin

A United Nations investigation has rejected claims that hundreds of Palestinian civilians were killed in Israel's attack on the Palestinian refugee camp in Jenin.

In a report released on Thursday the UN said the overall number of Palestinians killed was 52 - around half of whom may have been civilians - while Israel lost 23 soldiers there.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2165272.stm

[DogPoundPup]

11. *******

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x256001

[oberliner]

13. I don't understand what that link has to do with the Jenin misinformation

My only argument is that sometimes initial information in these circumstances turn out to be incorrect. The Battle of Jenin seems to be an illustrative example of that.

Wouldn't you agree?

[Idealism]

20. Oberliner, the Battle of Jenin did not go on for 22 days

There weren't millions of eyes watching and reporting, and there weren't human rights groups meticulously documenting each death. I don't understand the difference, just because 52 or so people died instead of 500, it is somehow not a massacre? How many people died in the Boston Massacre? What about the Virginia Tech massacre? Columbine? At least half of Jenin's death toll was civilian, so even 26 dead is a massacre given the previous instances receiving that label with less casualties.

[shira]

23. EPIC FAIL

"There weren't millions of eyes watching and reporting, and there weren't human rights groups meticulously documenting each death. I don't understand the difference, just because 52 or so people died instead of 500, it is somehow not a massacre? How many people died in the Boston Massacre? What about the Virginia Tech massacre? Columbine? At least half of Jenin's death toll was civilian, so even 26 dead is a massacre given the previous instances receiving that label with less casualties."

====================

This goes a long way in explaining most of your posts here. Please, whatever you do - stop and do some research on Jenin, come back, correct your multiple mistakes - and then rejoin once you're informed enough to give an honest educated opinion.

Find a credible source on Jenin before we have to find one for you, okay?

[Idealism]

26. Prove my claims wrong?

The U.N. said that half the 52 deaths were civilians.

Fact.

The Battle of Jenin did not last 22 days

Fact. More like a week.

Is there a stated definition of "massacre?"

No. Although we have labeled other things as "massacres" that have much lower civilian casualties.

Again, fact.

Prove me wrong, or just spout off more at the mouth over nonsense without refuting anything. You are doing no favors to your cause.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oberliner]

38. Human Rights Watch found no evidence to sustain claims of massacres

I think it is disingenuous to compare the Virginia Tech massacre where one gunmen went around shooting innocent unarmed people indiscriminately, to the Battle of Jenin where Israeli and Palestinian forces fought one another resulting in 23 Israelis 53 Palestinians killed and many more wounded on both sides.

Further, I am not understanding the significance of your mentioning that the battle did not last 22 days. It went on for 11 days. I'm not sure that anyone claimed otherwise or why that is important.

I would also dispute your claim about documentation, as this battle was in fact meticulously studied and documented by both the UN and human rights groups.

'No Jenin massacre' says rights group

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1965471.stm

UN says no massacre in Jenin

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2165272.stm

People are free to read the exhaustive UN report and determine for themselves whether or not they believe what took place ought to be considered a "massacre".

I think that most reasonable people would conclude, as Human Rights Watch did in its own report, that no massacre took place.

The initial point that is getting lost here is that there were claims about what took place in Jenin in the days and weeks immediately following the battle that turned out to have been fictitious and/or grossly exagerated.

[azurnoir]

29. HRW's report was out by early May and even prior

to that there were other reports the battle lasted 8 days from April 3 to april 11 and most of the reports of a massacre came out while the battle was on going

Initially, reporting of casualty numbers varied widely and fluctuated day to day. On April 10, the BBC reported that Israel estimated 150 Palestinians had died in Jenin but the Palestinians were saying the number was far higher.<29> Saeb Erekat, on a phone interview to CNN from Jericho, estimated 500 dead in Operation Defensive Shield in total.<30> On April 11, the Palestinians reported 500 dead.<31> On April 12, Brigadier-General Ron Kitri said on Israeli Army Radio that there are apparently hundreds killed. He later retracted this statement.<32> Secretary-General of the Palestinian Authority, Ahmed Abdel Rahman, said that thousands of Palestinians had been killed and buried in mass graves, or lay under houses destroyed in Jenin and Nablus.<33> On April 13, Palestinian Information Minister, Yasser Abed Rabbo, accused Israel of digging mass graves for 900 Palestinians in the camp.<34> On April 14, the IDF gave a final figure of 45 casualties.<35> On April 18, Zalman Shoval, adviser to Sharon, spoke of 65 bodies, five of them civilians.<36> On April 30, Qadoura Mousa, director of the Fatah for the northern West Bank, set the total dead at fifty-six.<37>

After the battle, the UN estimated the death toll at 52 Palestinians and 23 Israelis.<38> One Palestinian Fatah official reportedly put the death toll at fifty-six.<37> In 2004, Haaretz journalists Amos Harel and Avi Isacharoff wrote that 23 Israelis had died and 52 had been wounded; Palestinian casualties included 53 dead, hundreds wounded and about 200 captured.<1> According to retired IDF General Shlomo Gazit, the death toll was 55 Palestinians and 33 Israels.<39>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jenin

But for "some" reason there are those who to focus only on the initial tallies which were quickly retracted by the Palestinians themselves

[Fozzledick]

15. Spamming??

[shira]

16. you must be sooo disappointed

article after article, at least 10 a day now, right? Waiting for the evidence that will justify all that rage. Gosh, Israel just MUST be evil....what the hell are they waiting for?

Frustrating, isn't it?

They need a new term for this Israel derangement syndrome, maybe Israelophobia?

[shaayecanaan]

14. No, we do...

Read further, genius:-

Sensing a public-relations nightmare, Israeli spokespeople quickly asserted that their forces had only returned fire from gunmen inside the school. (They even named two militants.) It was a statement from which they would later retreat, saying there were gunmen in the vicinity of the school.

No witnesses said they saw any gunmen. (If people had seen anyone firing a mortar from the middle of the street outside the school, they likely would not have continued to mill around.)

Whatever the media accounts were, it turns out the Israeli account was 100% dyed-in-the-wool bullshit. Which raises the question:- why is it forgotten when Israel advances an account which it knows to be completely untrue, yet any inaccuracy in any pro-Palestinian account is seized upon as a "blood libel" as though an account of 40 dead civilians deserves comparison with Nazi propaganda?

[shira]

17. doesn't look like you do

Muhammad al-Dura was accepted by Israeli officials as having happened as originally reported, by lots of "witnesses". Israel just wanted the mess to go away, so they took the blame for it even though it was complete bullshit. They didn't even back Karsenty until he won in the French court.

You don't think the staged al-Dura affair, and those who pushed it and peddled it, was an outrageous accusation? Or that 1500 died in Jenin and were bulldozed over - not so outrageous?

[shaayecanaan]

28. The US initially claimed that 20,000 people died in 9/11

was that a blood libel?

Muhammad al-Dura was accepted by Israeli officials as having happened as originally reported, by lots of "witnesses". Israel just wanted the mess to go away, so they took the blame for it even though it was complete bullshit. They didn't even back Karsenty until he won in the French court.

"They" haven't "backed Karsenty" as of this date. Amongst other things, Karsenty claims that al-Durrah never died and that his funeral was faked. Perhaps "they" don't consider him credible.

You don't think the staged al-Dura affair, and those who pushed it and peddled it, was an outrageous accusation?

What, that the IDF shot and killed a kid? That is considered an outrageous accusation? They shot one on the West Bank just two weeks ago. A soldier shot him clean through the head with his trusty .22. 13 unarmed Arab citizens of Israel were shot and killed by police during riots in October 2000.

How many unarmed people do you think Israel has killed during demonstrations? And you maintain that this, of all things, is an outrageous accusation?

[azurnoir]

21. They? the haters

who are you talking about specifically you always dodge that one so for once be specific just who on DU are you talking about

[shira]

25. oh dear, do you really think I'm describing you in that post?

I'm just referring to the obviously irrational and insane posters, that's who.

[azurnoir]

35. No and I really do not care what you call me however

name calling in general is quite juvenile not to mention you've made that reference several times noiw with one notable exception

[shira]

36. waitaminute

you're calling me out for pointing to the irrational insanity of some posters when you just recently accused others of taking joy in seeing Palestinians suffer and die at Israeli hands?

[azurnoir]

37. Yes I am you have a history of this kind of stuff

do you want to post the comment ala BTA

[Howardx]

12. so they shelled a group of civilians

in the street outside the UN school. perhaps hurrying there to take refuge.

[hack89]

18. There is no evidence they knew the civilians were there

I suspect the Hamas militants knew though.

[Idealism]

19. Wrong, the U.N. gave them the exact coordinates of all their schools several times

They knew what was there.

[hack89]

22. Which is why the shells didn't hit this school

didn't you read the OP?

[Idealism]

30. You are saying the U.N. schools haven't been shelled?

Are you saying that the U.N. didn't give Israel the coordinates of any school but this one, and that is why the others were hit?

[hack89]

31. No

The point of the OP was that much of the "reporting" to come out of Gaza was distorted as is common during wars. I am willing to wait until a true, balanced picture is available.

[Idealism]

34. Of course, the true happenings won't be verifed for some time I fear

I do, however, think the death toll to be relatively accurate, considering the numerous human rights groups doing a good job of documenting and collaborating each death they can. Also, both sides believe the number is around 1200 dead, but that is where the agreement ends.

Israel has all coordinates of U.N. schools, and because this school may have not suffered a direct hit, is a small footnote in history, when the other 4 have. Ultimately, it is just another figure that will get lost in this overall conflict, obfuscating the true causes and false proportionality of the response.

The whole situation makes me truly sad, because it will push the possibility of peace back at least a decade. It will be pushed back even further if the Israeli's elect Bibi next month, too, and he has a decent lead in all polls so far.

Time will tell, but I fear we won't ever learn the whole truth.

[shira]

24. sigh

you've been in the military before and know how things go down and all the factors involved in combat, right?

[Idealism]

27. Factors in combat?

It was artillery rounds. They were outside of Gaza firing them. There were no "factors," the U.N. building didn't suddenly move.

"That school came out of nowhere!"

Really? That is the best you have?

[hack89]

32. In this case they didn't hit the school

despite the initial reports.

[Howardx]

39. the idf knew they were there

and shelled them on purpose. two can play your game.