Nasrallah: We'll never be able to recognize Israel

[oberliner]

Hizbullah Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah says his organization will never recognize Israel, rejecting a US precondition for dialogue with the group it considers a terrorist organization.

In a recorded speech aired Friday evening in Beirut in honor of Prophet Muhammad's birthday, Nasrallah said that "Hizbullah is on the list of terror organizations. Even its television stations and its organizations are on the list of terror groups, as well as many other names like (slain Hizbullah commander) Imad Mugniyah, myself and other brothers.

"Today the United States comes and says to us: 'You are terrorists and we are willing to forgive you for what has been, under the condition that you recognize Israel.' This is the entire story, recognize Israel and renounce violence. In other words, give up the resistance.

"I'm telling you that today, tomorrow, even in 1,000 years, we, our children and our offspring will never be able to recognize Israel. We are capable of defeating this entity (Israel) and can make it disappear, if we join forces and work together."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3686027,00.html

[billyoc]

1. Get used to bleeding, then.

[Turbineguy]

2. A Thousand Years...

Where have we heard that before? Oh Yes.... Now I remember.

[shira]

3. so....are we still "all Hezbollah now"?

I wonder what Nasrallah means by making Israel disappear? Is that what invisible ink is for?

Whatever - Israel's under no threat whatsoever as the citizens can withstand thousands of rockets perpetually. Rockets aren't an existential threat, after all, so big deal. Israelis can just live in shelters and take it.

[maxsolomon]

4. Ahh, Arab hyperbole for domestic consumption

meanwhile, at the negotiating table...

[Howardx]

5. how to recognize israel

they'll be the ones in the tanks.

[LeftishBrit]

6. They can recognize Israel or not; it still exists.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

14. Exactly. So why the stupid fucking word games? Why demand fealty to a nation that has

metaphorically sodomized them.

Can you answer this question?

No other nation demands a blessing for its existence. Why does Israel?

Having its precondition for all its enemies sure does enable Israel to avoid making peace.

I almost wish Hamas and Hezbullah would call them on their bluff. Wouldn't *that* be interesting!

[shira]

15. why the "word games"?

Israel wants those involved in a 2-state peace process to admit that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state independently from a Palestinian state. From before 1948 up until now, those with views like Hamas have only called for Israel's destruction. It's kinda hard negotiating peace in good faith with a 'partner' that only calls for your destruction and doesn't ever want to recognize you as a sovereign neighbor.

Israel just wants Hamas to admit that it recognizes Israel as a Jewish state that has a right to exist peacefully alongside a future Palestinian state. Why go through the motions of peace talks when Hamas cannot even go that far? It's clear Hamas and their faithful following believe Israel is still illegitimate to this day and has no right to exist as an independent and sovereign Jewish state. As the Hamas charter states, Israel will only exist until the Jihadists eventually destroy it. That's not a way to make peace. I understand, however, that you have the lowest of expectations for Hamas - not only WRT the way they victimize Israelis, but also in the manner they treat Palestinians. Expect nothing, get nothing in return.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

16. It's nonsense, pure and simple. Time for Israel to grow up. It exists. Period.

Demanding that its enemies bless its existence is utterly absurd.

How about Israel recognize the right of Palestine to exist?

[oberliner]

17. Take it up with Obama - he is making this demand of Hezbollah

The White House said Tuesday that both Hamas and Hezbollah must renounce violence and recognize Israel before they can expect even low-level US engagement.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090310/pl_afp/usmideasthamashezbollahbritain

[shira]

18. PM.....if you trust Obama with the Freeman nomination, you gotta trust him on this one too

if you're consistent, that is.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

20. Other comments re: Obama were in answer to someone's "progressive" credentials.

Obama is a wimp on this issue. I would bet dollars to donuts, he knows the score, but simply lacks the courage to act in accordance with what he believes. This is my personal conjecture and of course I have know way of knowing.

But then again, I believe any person of goodwill and intelligence, with a moral core, would support justice for Palestine.

[cali]

62. the problem, of course, is what's the definition of justice here.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

67. Not really all that difficult to imagine a just solution, do you think, Cali?

The "just solution" that most agree up on are 2-states

We all know that must include
67 borders
Settlements dismantled
East Jerusalem as the capital
Negotiated solution for refugees

Same as it's been since the late 1980's... No 2-state solution will ever be less than that. I know it. You know it. The Israeli gov't knows it. That's why they have encouraged settlers to pour in at unprecendent rates, don't you think?

[cali]

68. my point was that different groups and factions among both Palestinians and israelis

have different ideas about what constitutes justice.

[shira]

69. that justice was offered just 8 years ago, rejected, and Arafat was congratulated

for rejecting it.

So was it an INJUSTICE, in your opinion, that Arafat rejected:

67 borders
Settlements dismantled
East Jerusalem as the capital
Negotiated solution for refugees

[leftynyc]

102. You post a list of the things

Israel must do. Do you have a comparitive list for what the Palestinians must do as you think them merely recognizing Israel is a joke?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

19. Sad that he has chosen this imperialistic route. I expected more from a person of color.

Oh well.

[oberliner]

23. It is exactly consistent with everything he said on the subject throughout the campaign

He has made no secret of his position on Hezbollah and Hamas during the campaign and subsequently.

[sabbat hunter]

52. Why

What does his race have anything to do with it?

And as a side note I am with George Carlin on this one... why is person of color acceptable but colored person not. you are saying the same thing, just playing with language. :P

[aranthus]

71. It's about recognizing the legitimacy of Israel's existence.

People like Nasrallah recognize Israel like I recognize racism. I recognize that it exists, but I hate it and want to eradicate it. Nasrallah recognizes Israel as something to destroy. The Israelis want him to stop doing that. They want someone who will actually sign a peace agreement with them and mean it. Nasrallah is not that person, and Hizbollah is not that organization and you know it. Why all the game playing trying to deny the obvious?

[Igel]

29. Odd strawman.

"Bless" instead of acknowledge.

Do people *bless* your right to exist, to have property, to not be assaulted? Of course not. They acknowledge that you have the rights. "Blessing" has no role to play outside of church, temple, or mosque.

Acknowledging rights is the first step to peace. Take the KKK: They didn't acknowledge that blacks had the right to exist, to live in peace. Agreements with them were one-sided commitments, since they had no right to having contracts enforced, no expectation that a contract would be enforced. No rights, nothing to enforce. MLK and his predecessors recognized that acknowledging rights was the first step towards peace. The situations aren't analogous in many respects; in this one respect, however, they are.

As long as whites viewed blacks as the descendants of apes, the children of an apostate marked and cursed by God for disobedience, no progress could possibly be made. "Bless" blacks? Hardly. But until whites acknowledged blacks' rights, there could be no peace because there was nothing wrong with violence. Admitting that blacks exist is facile--you can't rob, beat, kill, and rape what doesn't exist.

Imagine that there's a Palestinian state--there isn't, of course, but we can imagine. Would you want Israel to acknowledge that it had a right to exist? Would Israel be doing anything wrong in lobbing rockets into that state? Apart from humanitarian issues, that is. No. Would it be ok for Israel to invade it? Sure. If it has no right to exist, just as a black man in 1700 in Virginia had no rights. The first order of business of a new state is securing recognition not of its existence, but of it's right to exist, esp. on the part of neighboring states. Otherwise you have or could easily have another Kosovo, Tibet, Bosnia, etc.

Allah's Party has the same problem that anti-black racists in the US have: They don't acknowledge the right of some other entity to exist, and are frustrated that others do. However, racists in the US are subject to enforcement and restrictions; Nasr-Allah's Party parties on.

[LeftishBrit]

76. I'm not particularly into the word games...

I think it's silly and ostrich-like to refuse to recognize an entity that exists. I feel the same about those who refuse to recognize Hezbollah; I don't like them, but they're there!

And I think that rather than demanding that groups or countries 'recognize' each other, it would be more profitable to simply demand that they not attack each other.

'No other nation demands a blessing for its existence'

Oh, yes, lots do! Or rather they demand 'recognition' from other countries and 'loyalty oaths' from their own citizens.

[IndianaGreen]

7. Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.

The quote often attributed to Diderot that "man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest," seems quite applicable here.

We still got to look forward to the German Pope's visit to Israel. :puke:

[cali]

8. It's attributed to Diderot because he

penned it. There's hardly debate about that. And it doesn't apply here. But don't let that stop you in your endless quest for the most insane, hateful hyperbole. It never does.

[IndianaGreen]

9. So you are now supporting Nasrallah?

Trying to figure out your knee jerk support of the religious leaders that have brought ruin to the human race.

[cali]

13. uh, no. pulled that right out of your.... .

didn't you. Find one place, dear, where I have ever supported a fundy religious type of any persuasion. Stop making shit up. It's beneath you. Er, no, it not beneath you. Little is.

[ConcernedCanuk]

10. Refusing dialog - Hizbullah IS an entity that needs to be negotiated with

.
.
.

I can see no reason to refuse any sort of dialog with them by making preconditions

TALK TO THEM - there may be some negotiating available

but a complete shut-out, well

that ain't gonna solve anything

Remember Israel was CREATED by a UN resolution in 1948, I suspect heavily supported by the USA

So I can understand why some nations/groups fail to recognize Israel as a country/state

Compounding the lack of acceptance by Israel's neighbors are Israels continued financial and military support from the USA, it's aggressive attitude toward its neighbors, and it's secret arsenal of nuclear weapons.

USA should be bending over backward to these groups they are defining as "terrorists"

Unless they really want to see permanent war and destabilization in the Middle East

because then the USA would have to keep major troops over there for decades ,,

oh wait . . .

. . :freak:

[rockymountaindem]

11. Why should the US be bending over backwards to people like Hezbollah?

They aren't nearly as important as Hamas because they don't control any land that is currently in dispute between Israel and the Palestinians. At worst Hezbollah presents a conventional military threat to Israel with their rockets or a terrorist threat with suicide bombers etc. While they are probably more effective fighters than Hamas from what I've read, they are more important in terms of Lebanese domestic politics and our relationship with Iran than they are to the I/P issue.

And as far as the UN/Israel bit goes regarding international recognition, Pakistan and Bangladesh were both carved up with the help of an outside power, and you don't see all of their neighbors loudly proclaiming that they aren't legitimate states.

[ConcernedCanuk]

12. I think I should refine my statement there, about "bending over backward" . .

.
.
.

I would rather have said that the USA should be bending over backward to encourage dialog - get a base to negotiate

I did NOT mean that the USA should capitulate in any way

My statement in my post was not very clear on that.

And as far as the recognition of Israel, I understand that it is just local complaints, Egypt comes to mind.

I do not see the relevance of Pakistan and Bangladesh, and do not intend to pursue their validity in this thread.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

21. Does anyone consider that Nasrallah's position re: Israel is a result of Israel's actions

rather than simply chalking him up as an anti-semite?

Perhaps Israel should consider long-term consequences before it behaves as it has in Lebanon.

[shira]

22. um.......he's a jew hater, par excellence

"If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide." (Daily Star, Oct. 23, 2002)

There's simply no wiggle room out of that one, PM.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

24. Hard to parse it when there is in fact just cause for people from Lebanon to hate Israel. nt

[shira]

25. pathetic

if Jews all gather in Israel, it will save Nasrallah and his henchmen the trouble of going after all Jews worldwide......and THAT is just anti-Israel rhetoric to you?

Are you serious?

If Chas Freeman articulated the same view; that moving all Jews into Israel would save Jew haters worldwide the trouble of having to go after Jews everywhere around the globe, you'd label that only anti-Israel?

[geek tragedy]

27. He's talking about Jews. Talk about willful blindness. n/t

[cali]

63. you deny the most blatant anti-semitism

that's pretty shameful.

[pelsar]

82. actually i thought your response was quite clear....

"If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide." (Daily Star, Oct. 23, 2002)

your response:
Hard to parse it when there is in fact just cause for people from Lebanon to hate Israel. nt

______________

I think i should explain to the nice/well meaning "westerners" here. They try here, they really do to differentiate between jews, israelis, the govt of israel etc....what they dont get, no matter how much they try, those nice definitions are not relevant to the conflict in the region. For those involved "jews and israelis are interchangable....when the Palestenians, in the "street" are interviewed, they freely interchange jews and israelis, there is no differentiation.

so when i read it, what Nassralla said (no surprise) and your response which totally missed the point the nice DUers were shocked at...i wasnt surprised. You remain a product of the middleeast and your reactions are from there.

for me, its just further confirmation (sadly) that this little conflict is way beyond the westbank and the settlements but no matter how many kassams fly over the border, no matter how many times Nassaralla or a hamasnik, or IJ etc will make their claim that this not about the westbank, settlements, it will constantly fly over the heads of those who dont want to hear it.....as will your statements...i suspect that they will never get it, because that reality is really just so ugly, so primitive that its hard for many to comprehend.

[azurnoir]

94. A question about this quote

when the Palestenians, in the "street" are interviewed, they freely interchange jews and israelis, there is no differentiation.

How many non Israeli Jews does the average Palestinian in the street have contact with? How many Jews from NYC or Detriot, Chicago, Madison, Minneapolis, Paris, London, Rome, you know anywhere but Israel does the average Palestinian from Ramallah, Tulkarm or Gaza City not to mention one of the camps do they get to interact with? When it comes to even Israeli Jews how many IDF as opposed to civilian?

Its easy for a Westerner to separate Jews from Israeli's most Jews we know or interact with are not Israeli kind of makes it simple

[pelsar]

103. How many non Israeli Jews does the average Palestinian in the street have contact with?-hundreds

ever hear of arab israelis?....the ones who have commerce in the westbank? and that are related to Palestinians by blood and marriage?

well, that excuse didnt fly, guess you'll have to find another.......

[Howardx]

26. bingo

introspection seems to be a skill israelis and their supporters lack.

[cali]

88. broad brush idiocy

hardly a useful thing.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

28. If it were a rationale person you might have a point. Nasrallah does not qualify

[Alamuti Lotus]

60. Now that would require 'thought' and 'critical analysis'

somethings that the hasbara keyboard brigade doesn't exactly excel in...

Hizbu'llah's history is a fascisting subject that too few have properly considered.

[Alamuti Lotus]

61. fascinating, even

two thoughts at once = interesting new words. That, of course, was apparently a combination of "fascinating" and "fisting".. which may or may not be a window into my apparent thoughts that should probably be avoided.

[Violet_Crumble]

65. I'm reading a book about Hizbullah now...

Gotta admit it's pretty heavy going, coz it's written by Naim Qassem and it's a bit too top heavy with religious stuff and being an atheist, I start yawning and getting distracted, but he's written the history of Hizbullah and once I yawned my way through the ten pillars of Islam, it's interesting stuff.

[shira]

66. do you believe Nasrallah is antisemitic?

Nasrallah was quoted:

"If they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide." (Daily Star, Oct. 23, 2002)

Is that antisemitic or just antizionist in your opinion?

[Alamuti Lotus]

91. doesn't particularly interest me, really

To be fair, we obviously don't consider subjects in the same terms; I'm sure that there are a half-dozen phrases prominent in my vocabulary that certainly don't have the same weight with you either.

I don't particularly care for that quote, but the rest of that article was more interesting (though I doubt you have read it). The main crux of the speech (and the article that briefly covered it) was regarding the so-called Christian Zionists and their influence on US imperialist foreign policy, making the comparison that Arabs would not be wiped out like the native Americans.

Out of curiosity, please disclose the source of your spammed quotelet. I happen to know that Daily Star archives are a fee-based source and I'm sure you didn't buy that piece out of thin air. I am concerned that the places you choose to be influenced by are skimming over more interesting matters in favour of tabloid-style brainwashing.

[shira]

98. so you won't or can't admit to antisemitic statements when you see them?

And even though you don't deny his statement, given that you read the original article with that statement clearly in it, you still want to know my source?

http://www.engageonline.org.uk/blog/article.php?id=1209

[Alamuti Lotus]

106. as I said, the "antisemistism"/"antizionist" debate doesn't really interest me

being neither a Jew nor a Jew-hater (though some among us may claim to have the inside track on my true feelings on the subject), my background or experience doesn't revolve around those particular terms or the precise value and context that you would consider them in, therefore I will rarely employ them for any reason. I know why others do, and as a preference I will instead use my phrases of choice to control the discussion as I see fit, rather than concede the field to others before stepping foot upon it.

To answer your other question. Yes, I am familiar with the quoted (questionable, it seems) article and the source it appeared in and also knew (not by rote, but was aware of) the original speech it was allegedly cribbed from. That is very different from the enveloping absence of anything resembling context from the tabloid-esque propaganda rags I correctly assumed that you were plucking it from. To put this in perspective -- just how much validity do you give places that cut and assemble various damning quotelets from Zionist leaders past and present?

[Violet_Crumble]

99. I'm glad someone finally asked about the authenticity of that quote...

While that quote is floating around on blogs and at cess-pits like Free Republic, and while I generally avoid Wikipedia unless I can help it, I found this which does make that particular quote look like it might be another of those fake quotes that float round...

Badih Chayban in his October 23, 2002 article in The Daily Star, Nasrallah said that "if all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide."<37> Charles Glass believes that the quotation was likely a fabrication, citing other published accounts of Nasrallah's speech that had no reference to the anti-Semitic comment, and statements by the editor-in-chief of the Lebanese newspaper which published the quotes, that questioned both the translation and the "agenda of the translator."<38> Glass also wrote that a Hezbollah spokeswoman, Wafa Hoteit, denied that Nasrallah made the statement.<38>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Nasrallah#On_Jews_and_Judaism

[Alamuti Lotus]

105. Imagine that

I could go either way; it reeks of bullshit, but bluster is in Nasrallah's wheelhouse. The Daily Star is a mixed bag; not nearly as fanatically anti-Syrian/anti-Palestinian as an-Nahar, but has its share of Phalangists, Harari assets, and other unsavory fellow travellers.

[Violet_Crumble]

64. I don't think the two are exclusive...

Of course Nasrallah is antisemitic, but that doesn't mean that his position regarding Israel is driven by antisemitism. More likely it's a mix of being a result of Israel's actions as well as being antisemitic...

[aranthus]

72. Exactly.

The problem is that even if you changed Israel's actions to suit Nasrallah, he would still be in the war camp against Israel's existence.

[aranthus]

70. I suppose there are some fools who do,

but anyone with more than a shallow understanding of relevant history and a lack of ideological blindness knows that this has been a consistent position of people like Nasrallah since before there was an Israel. He's ideologically and religiously committed to Israel's destruction because it is a Jewish state. You're intelligent enough to it. I would hope that you are intellectually honest enough to admit it.

[grassfed]

30. like forcing African-Americans to formally legitimize Dixie

[oberliner]

31. Dixie? You are saying the Arabs in Israel are treated like the African American slaves in the South?

Is that the analogy you are drawing here?

[Violet_Crumble]

32. Clearly she's not....

Considering the article's about Hizbullah and Israel, it should be clear to anyone reading that it's not about Israeli-Arabs. Also, what's with the need to take everything so goddam literally? It's obvious that she's saying that it's a case of asking a people who have been mistreated to recognise the very instrument of their mistreatment. Hope that helps you understand the post...

[oberliner]

33. That analogy does not seem to hold up

How is forcing Hezbollah to recognize Israel "sort of like" forcing African-Americans to formally recognize Dixie?

Do you believe that Hezbollah was treated by Israel in a similar way to how African-Americans were treated by Dixie?

I would say that analogy is far from instructive.

Also, I think that making analogies where Israel is compared to universally odious regimes of the past is a way of demonizing the country rather than presenting helpful analysis, thus my reaction.

[Violet_Crumble]

36. That's because yr insisting on taking everything so literally....

But at least you now seem to realise that it had zero to do with Israeli-Arabs, so that's a start.

Are you unaware of what Israel has done to Lebanon and the Lebanese people? Yr comments seem to be indicating that you either don't, or you don't see that Israel has done anything wrong when it comes to Lebanon....

Also, I think that making analogies where Israel is compared to universally odious regimes of the past is a way of demonizing the country rather than presenting helpful analysis, thus my reaction.

She wasn't comparing Israel to the American South guys. What she was doing (which is what's already been explained to you and you've ignored) is that people who have been mistreated aren't going to be keen on recognising the instrument of their mistreatment....

[oberliner]

41. It still seems to have something to do with Arab Israelis

Otherwise the invocation of "Dixie" in this context makes no sense. It seemed (and I could be wrong as the original poster has not commented) that Dixie was mentioned since it was a place where one group treated another group within the same country oppressively. Thus, I asked the question of how that relates to Israel. In the "Dixie" analogy, who in Israel is meant to be analogous to the slaves?

And again, if you will note, there are question marks after everything that I wrote in my post, indicating that I was asking the poster to clarify what they meant - which they have not yet done.

I am aware of what Israel has done to Lebanon, and I am also aware of Hezbollah has done to Israel and what Hezbollah has done to Lebanon.

I have great sympathy for the people of Lebanon and can absolutely understand the antipathy they would feel towards Israel.

Hezbollah, on the other hand, does not engender the same feelings as they have sought conflict with Israel even after Israel withdrew from the country. They also stand in violation of UN resolutions that call for them to disband as a militia which they have not yet done and have expressed no intentions of doing.

I do not find the analogy to be valid, as I've stated, and I postulate that its only purpose is to associate Israel with the odious South.

[Violet_Crumble]

43. No, it doesn't. If you read the OP you'd know that....

And yr still insisting on taking things literally. As I've explained where you were wrong more than once and you insist on ignoring it, there's absolutely no point in you continuing as if I haven't said anything...

And again, if you will note, there are question marks after everything that I wrote in my post, indicating that I was asking the poster to clarify what they meant - which they have not yet done.

Oh, are those question marks after everything you write somehow different than the question marks I put at the end of questions to you, which you rarely if ever answer? I didn't realise that...

I do not find the analogy to be valid, as I've stated, and I postulate that its only purpose is to associate Israel with the odious South.

Yeah, I've noticed that like with any analogy to do with Israel, you don't find it to be valid, but I find yr postulation to be a result of you grabbing the wrong end of the stick on this one...

[oberliner]

45. Ok you win

I promise I am not ignoring you. I read carefully what you wrote, thought about it, and then wrote my response. Obviously, you don't agree with me, or you think I am dense or something, but I stand by my assessment. And I promise I did read the OP as well!

Also, I'm not sure what questions from you I have not answered. If you mean in this thread all I see from you here is about my taking things "so goddam literally" which I assume was a rhetorical question.

If it's from other threads, I'd encourage you to PM me with any questions you have and I'd be happy to answer them. As you know I am always keen to discuss any issues regarding this conflict with any interested parties.

[Violet_Crumble]

48. It's not about winning or losing...

I'm just failing to see how you could not understand the point that was being made when I explained it to you...

I wasn't talking about questions in this thread. I'm talking about past threads, up to and including the recent one where someone posted advocating flattening Gaza.

[oberliner]

97. s/d

[bemildred]

34. Well, that didn't work. nt

[oberliner]

35. You are normally a reasonable poster

Do you feel that comparing Hezbollah to African-Americans and Israel to Dixie is a legitimate analogy to make?

[bemildred]

37. Her point was perfectly clear, as was yours. nt

[oberliner]

38. And what do you think of the validity of our respective points?

I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

[bemildred]

40. They both seem like valid points to me.

It somewhat hinges on the intent of the third party, what particular comparison was being drawn there, but the distinctions you and VC made are both correct. The original analogy is weak, can be criticized, but is not completely implausible. The notion of asking the oppressed to ratify their oppression can be general or specific.

[oberliner]

42. Thanks - I appreciate the response nt

[bemildred]

47. Well, apparently we have some clarification now ...

:popcorn:

[oberliner]

55. Google Toaster Tutor

Quite a saga.

[bemildred]

57. Now you've done it.

I'm going to be worrying about what a "kosher toaster oven" is for days.

[shira]

39. it would appear that because Israel mistreats some people, those people need not formally recognize

...Israel's right to exist as a sovereign Jewish nation at peace with its neighbors.

Two can play at that game, however, as Israelis also have good reason not to particularly like those who have had genocidal aspirations against them since even before 1948. It seems that Israelis are more grown up, however, as they have no problem recognizing a future Palestinian neighboring state. According to President Clinton, they made a credible offer of a sovereign Palestinian state just 8 years ago. They have no problem already recognizing all their other neighbors around them despite all the animosity and failed genocidal attempts against them since 1948.

Maybe Palestinian leadership should just grow up, get along with its neighbors, and try giving their citizens a chance for a better life. Of course, this puts them out of business - and what are they going to do instead, sell furniture or work the night shift at KFC? They like their power and they know enough people will support their tyrannical rule for many more decades. Expect the same old for another generation or two.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[grassfed]

49. it is the complete OPPOSITE, the site advocates the end of racial categories, identities

"Race traitor" as in advocating the abolishment of racial consciousness.

read "Abolish the White Race" on the site.

[Violet_Crumble]

50. Yeah, I read that on the homepage of that site...

Until I saw that, I was 'race traitor' wtf? I figure the guys who run that place should really rethink their name, coz if people go there and just read the name of the site they're going to think it's some White Supremacist sort of thing...

[grassfed]

51. unfortunate name -- some good writing however.

[shira]

54. their articles are really bad

jewish racial purity? caste system?

Their articles WRT Israel are unfortunately nothing more than fodder for ignoramouses and Jew haters. A case could easily be made that in comparison to the most progressive, least racist societies in the world - Israel compares very favorably. These articles would come as a great surprise, and disappointment, to the vast majority of Israelis and credible historians.

Check this one out in contrast to "racetraitor":
http://www.israel21c.org/bin/en.jsp?enDispWho=Views%5El285&enPage=BlankPage&enDisplay=view&enDispWhat=object&enVersion=0&enZone=Views

This isn't to say there are no race problems within Israel, only that articles like the ones from "racetraitor" do not - for some reason - explain the complete story. How can "racetraitor" publish such articles without also reporting fairly about the good, tolerant aspects of Israeli society? Instead of showing balance and using measured and legitimate criticism, these "racetraitors" act like ElectricIntifada and spew only vitriol and hostility, not criticism, at Israel.

[grassfed]

73. Einstein and Rahm Emanuel's father's terrorist org

TO THE EDITORS OF THE NEW YORK TIMES:

Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the Freedom Party (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.

The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begins political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.

Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begins behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement.

The public avowals of Begins party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.

Attack on Arab Village

A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants 240 men, women, and children and kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin.

The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.

Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model.

During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute.

The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.

Discrepancies Seen

The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a Leader State is the goal.

In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begins efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin.

The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism.

(signed)

ISIDORE ABRAMOWITZ, HANNAH ARENDT, ABRAHAM BRICK, RABBI JESSURUN CARDOZO, ALBERT EINSTEIN, HERMAN EISEN, M.D., HAYIM FINEMAN, M. GALLEN, M.D., H.H. HARRIS, ZELIG S. HARRIS, SIDNEY HOOK, FRED KARUSH, BRURIA KAUFMAN, IRMA L. LINDHEIM, NACHMAN MAISEL, SYMOUR MELMAN, MYER D. MENDELSON, M.D., HARRY M. ORLINSKY, SAMUEL PITLICK, FRITZ ROHRLICH, LOUIS P. ROCKER, RUTH SAGER, ITZHAK SANKOWSKY, I.J. SCHOENBERG, SAMUEL SHUMAN, M. ZNGER, IRMA WOLPE, STEFAN WOLPE

New York, Dec. 2, 1948

http://www.globalwebpost.com/farooqm/study_res/einstein/nyt_letter.html

[shira]

74. I agree with this statement, but you're moving the goalposts

either Israel is inherently a racist country with a caste system like your articles from "racetraitor" clearly imply, or it's not and your source is only engaged in hateful and demonizing mudslinging WRT Israel. Are you now just trying to find anything you can to show how "evil" and illegitimate Israel is?

[grassfed]

75. you took exception to Ignatiev's comments

wrt Israeli racial supremacy, the Einstein letter is context.

[shira]

77. some racial supremacy

Israelis, including many Jewish Israelis, tend to range from very white to yellow, brown, and black. Operation Moses was described as the first time in human history that thousands of blacks were welcomed in by a country without having shackles attached to their wrists and legs. Seriously, you need better sources for your information.

[grassfed]

78. LA Times today: Zionism is the Problem

The fate Buber foresaw is upon us: a nation that has lived in a state of war for decades, a quarter-million Arab citizens with second-class status and more than 5 million Palestinians deprived of the most basic political and human rights. If two decades ago comparisons to the South African apartheid system felt like hyperbole, they now feel charitable. The white South African regime, for all its crimes, never attacked the Bantustans with anything like the destructive power Israel visited on Gaza in December and January, when nearly 1,300 Palestinians were killed, one-third of them children.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/sunday/commentary/la-oe-ehrenreich15-2009mar15,0,4405950.story

[shira]

83. well, this conversation is going nowhere

you post drivel, it's refuted, you post more drivel.

[shira]

85. why "Zionism is the Problem" is a stupid article

"The problem is fundamental: Founding a modern state on a single ethnic or religious identity in a territory that is ethnically and religiously diverse leads inexorably either to politics of exclusion (think of the 139-square-mile prison camp that Gaza has become) or to wholesale ethnic cleansing."

================

Which parts of historical Palestine are Jew free? Which parts are Arab free? Think about that. This author didn't.

================

"If two decades ago comparisons to the South African apartheid system felt like hyperbole, they now feel charitable. The white South African regime, for all its crimes, never attacked the Bantustans with anything like the destructive power Israel visited on Gaza in December and January, when nearly1,300 Palestinians were killed, one-third of them children."

================

Right, 1300 Gazans were killed for no reason at all. Had nothing to do with hundreds of rockets just in one week prior to OCL, or thousands of rockets for years prior. 1300 Gazans killed, due to racism alone. What a jackass.

================

"Establishing a secular, pluralist, democratic government in Israel and Palestine would of course mean the abandonment of the Zionist dream. It might also mean the only salvation for the Jewish ideals of justice that date back to Jeremiah."

================

Yes, Jews and Arabs got along so well prior to 1948 with the Hebron riots of 1929 and Jews living in dhimmitude around the Arab/Muslim world. It would be so much better for Jews to try out the Kosovo/Lebanon model because those examples show such great promise. Salvation for Jewish ideals and justice means Jews should be defenseless once again, begging the rest of the world for crumbs, and hoping to assimilate entirely to avoid future pogroms and holocausts (even that wasn't good enough).

Zionism isn't the problem. Anti-Zionism is.

Is anti-Zionism hate?
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-pearl15-2009mar15,0,6323783.story

[Violet_Crumble]

84. Good article. Here's a few from Avraham Burg on the problems with Zionism...

The end of Zionism

The Zionist revolution has always rested on two pillars: a just path and an ethical leadership. Neither of these is operative any longer. The Israeli nation today rests on a scaffolding of corruption, and on foundations of oppression and injustice. As such, the end of the Zionist enterprise is already on our doorstep. There is a real chance that ours will be the last Zionist generation. There may yet be a Jewish state here, but it will be a different sort, strange and ugly.

There is time to change course, but not much. What is needed is a new vision of a just society and the political will to implement it. Diaspora Jews for whom Israel is a central pillar of their identity must pay heed and speak out.

The opposition does not exist, and the coalition, with Ariel Sharon at its head, claims the right to remain silent. In a nation of chatterboxes, everyone has suddenly fallen dumb, because there's nothing left to say. We live in a thunderously failed reality. Yes, we have revived the Hebrew language, created a marvellous theatre and a strong national currency. Our Jewish minds are as sharp as ever. We are traded on the Nasdaq. But is this why we created a state? The Jewish people did not survive for two millennia in order to pioneer new weaponry, computer security programs or anti-missile missiles. We were supposed to be a light unto the nations. In this we have failed.

It turns out that the 2,000-year struggle for Jewish survival comes down to a state of settlements, run by an amoral clique of corrupt lawbreakers who are deaf both to their citizens and to their enemies. A state lacking justice cannot survive. More and more Israelis are coming to understand this as they ask their children where they expect to live in 25 years. Children who are honest admit, to their parents' shock, that they do not know. The countdown to the end of Israeli society has begun.

It is very comfortable to be a Zionist in West Bank settlements such as Beit El and Ofra. The biblical landscape is charming. You can gaze through the geraniums and bougainvilleas and not see the occupation. Travelling on the fast highway that skirts barely a half-mile west of the Palestinian roadblocks, it's hard to comprehend the humiliating experience of the despised Arab who must creep for hours along the pocked, blockaded roads assigned to him. One road for the occupier, one road for the occupied.

This cannot work. Even if the Arabs lower their heads and swallow their shame and anger for ever, it won't work. A structure built on human callousness will inevitably collapse in on itself. Note this moment well: Zionism's superstructure is already collapsing like a cheap Jerusalem wedding hall. Only madmen continue dancing on the top floor while the pillars below are collapsing.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/sep/15/comment

Burg: Defining Israel as a Jewish state is the key to its end

Avraham Burg, former Knesset speaker and former head of the Jewish Agency says "to define the State of Israel as a Jewish state is the key to its end. A Jewish state is explosive. It's dynamite." In an interview in Haaretz Weekend Magazine, he said that he is in favor of abrogating the Law of Return and calls on everyone who can to obtain a foreign passport.

Burg, who was interviewed on the occasion of the publication of his book "Defeating Hitler" said "the strategic mistake of Zionism was to annul the alternatives. Israeliness has only body; it doesn't have soul."

"Judaism always prepared alternatives," says Burg, who three years after leaving Israeli politics is now a citizen of France and a successful businessman.

"Just as there was something astonishing about German Jewry, in America, too, they created the potential for something astonishing. They created a situation in which the goy can be my father and my mother and my son and my partner," Burg says.

His book ruminates about Israel and Zionism, compares Israel and Germany, harshly criticizes Eichmann's hanging, reflects on Judaism in the age of globalization and remembers his father's house.

Burg said he started his book in mourning for the loss of Israel. "During most of the writing the book's title was 'Hitler Won.' But slowly I discovered the layer of not everything being lost. And I discovered my father as a representative of German Jewry that was ahead of its time. These two themes nourished the book from beginning to end."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/868215.html

[Violet_Crumble]

56. I'll have a read of some articles later on today when I've got more time n/t

[sabbat hunter]

53. self delete

[grassfed]

93. You're right... It's not the same

It's much worse. These comments about nonviolent activists Rachel Corrie and Tristan Anderson speak volumes about the rampant brutality infecting Israelis and US Zionists. I've never seen anything like it, even in my studies of the South.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3685953,00.html

[Shaktimaan]

95. Wow.

Clearly your study of the South is just as superficial as your study of the Middle East.

You actually believe that the comments about Rachel Corrie are worse than anything seen in the US South? You honestly believe that Israeli Arabs are treated worse than Southern Blacks during slavery?

Ignorance such as this has no easily administered antidote.

[Alamuti Lotus]

59. apt analogy

[aranthus]

79. Except it's not.

Slavery was both the instrument of white oppression of blacks and a moral wrong. Israel is neither the instrument of Palestinian oppression nor a moral wrong. Palestinians suffer because of their war against Israel's existence. That's their wrong, not Israel's. Your's is a ludicrous and offensive analogy.

[grassfed]

80. Zionism is the Problem

The fate Buber foresaw is upon us: a nation that has lived in a state of war for decades, a quarter-million Arab citizens with second-class status and more than 5 million Palestinians deprived of the most basic political and human rights. If two decades ago comparisons to the South African apartheid system felt like hyperbole, they now feel charitable. The white South African regime, for all its crimes, never attacked the Bantustans with anything like the destructive power Israel visited on Gaza in December and January, when nearly 1,300 Palestinians were killed, one-third of them children.


http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/sunday/commentary/la-oe-ehrenreich15-2009mar15,0,4405950.story

[IndianaGreen]

81. A secular, binational state in Palestine in which Jews and Arabs would be accorded equal status.

The one-state solution has three variants:

1. An all Jewish state reaching to the Jordanian border, the Likud solution.

2. An all Islamic state replacing present day Israel, the Hamas solution.

3. A "secular, binational state in Palestine in which Jews and Arabs would be accorded equal status," the solution advocated by Martin Buber, and now supported by increasing number of secular Arabs and Jews. A loose federal republic would preserve areas that are predominantly Jewish and Arab, yet it will eliminate the apartheid system currently in place. Future settlements will be build for all citizens of the new Israel/Palestine state. Jerusalem will be undivided, yet belonging to all, and the capital of one unified nation.

[shira]

86. what a wonderful idea......works so well in Kosovo and Lebanon, so let's try it!!!

[IndianaGreen]

90. A federal republic with a Bill of Rights worked very well in the USA

at least, until the Bush regime decided to trample on our Constitution.

[cali]

101. The comparison is phenomenally, er, misguided

Not to mention that for Native Americans, African-Americans and others, it didn't work so well for many years. And still doesn't.

[Vegasaurus]

87. Your "secular bi-national state'

would quickly turn into yet one more repressive Muslim theocracy.

You'll have to pardon Jews who don't want to live as dhimmi again (those who aren't killed), or live under Sharia law.

Israel women and gay people are used to having rights, and aren't giving them up to live in oppression under theocratic Islamic law.

Nice try though.

[IndianaGreen]

89. A Marxist government would guarantee women and LGBT's rights

and would be a relentless enemy of religious extremism in all its permutations.

BTW, LGBTs have nothing to fear in Jerusalem, or do they?

[Shaktimaan]

96. Well, you have it all figured out, huh?

How exactly would a Marxist government do such a thing? And why MARXIST of all things anyway?

Why not just explain that a government aligned with the ethics and philosophy of the Star Trek Federation of Planets would guarantee the rights of everyone? It has about as much likelihood of happening as some never before seen anywhere, liberal, progressive, Marxist, Mid-Eastern government.

This is so far into the realm of fantasy that it's difficult to respond to in any meaningful way. I mean, NO government on the planet has yet been able to guarantee women and LGBT's rights, yet you seem to think that... forget it. This is just too far out there for me.

[Violet_Crumble]

100. Do you understand what the word *secular* means?

It means there's no religion involved in the govt of a country. You appear (despite being corrected many times) to believe that if a country has a population that's majority Muslim, it has to end up being a 'repressive Muslim theocracy' that wants to kill Jews (because that piece of nonsense where Muslims in any great mass are a bunch of slavering genocidal wanna-be Jew-killers is yet another major theme in yr posts). Not that you'll take the slightest bit of notice of a dose of reality, but the most populous Muslim country in the world is not only secular, but a democracy.

[cali]

104. well, actually

that's not exactly accurate. For instance, England and Norway, amoung others, are considered secular nations, but there is state religion. And in the U.S., our currency is emblazoned with "In God we trust", not to mention such things as the pledge of allegiance, and the House of Reps opening every single session with a prayer.

[Alamuti Lotus]

58. watched this earlier, one of his better speeches lately

[bemildred]

92. Nasrallah will old, and then he will be dead, someday, not that far off.

He doesn't get to dictate what will never happen.