Israel Promises Internal Probe After Soldiers Describe Civilian Killings, Lax Rules of Engagement

[ProgressiveMuslim]

in Gaza Attack

The Israeli Military Advocate General has for the first time called for criminal inquiries into the conduct of Israeli troops in Gaza. The request came in response to soldiers’ testimonies that described loose rules of engagement, troops firing on unarmed civilians, and troops intentionally vandalizing property during the three-week assault on Gaza. We speak to Gaza-based journalist Amira Hass of the Israeli newspaper Haaretz.



JUAN GONZALEZ: The Israeli Military Advocate General has for the first time called for criminal inquiries into the conduct of Israeli troops in Gaza. The request came in response to soldiers’ testimonies that described loose rules of engagement, troops firing on unarmed civilians, and troops intentionally vandalizing property during the three-week assault on Gaza. The soldiers’ accounts are published in the Israeli daily Haaretz and based on statements made a month ago by graduates of the Yitzhak Rabin pre-military preparatory course.


Defense Minister Ehud Barak told Israel Radio that the incidents would be examined and added, quote, “We have the most moral army in the world.”


AMY GOODMAN: We’re joined now on the line from Gaza by Haaretz correspondent Amira Hass.


Amira, welcome to Democracy Now! The Haaretz newspaper describing this as a several day exposé, Israeli soldiers in their own words, talk about its significance.


AMIRA HASS: Its significance, of course, is that the soldiers actually confirm what Palestinians have been telling for the past three months, and journalists who listen to Palestinians and believe Palestinians and know their work of taking affidavits and testimonies from Palestinians have done so during the last three months. This is the main importance, because it’s—we don’t know the exact locations of this.


And it’s not the only—it’s not the only incident. Some Israelis might get the impression that the soldiers who spoke spoke about the only incident of killing civilians and of very lenient—lenient rules of engagement, and this is not true. The whole attack—the three weeks of attack were characterized by these attacks on—almost indiscriminate attacks on civilians, attacks on people who carried white flags, attacks on rescue teams, not to mention the attacks from the air at whole civilian neighborhoods.


So I would say that—of course, it was not my report. Haaretz did a great job at putting a lot of emphasis to this testimonies of soldiers. It drew attention to what many Israelis managed to ignore during the last three months.


JUAN GONZALEZ: And some of the specific incidents that were described? I understand one in which an elderly Palestinian woman was walking along the road, was ordered to be shot by some soldiers in a house?


AMIRA HASS: Yeah, if I know—look, there are several such cases. I, myself, have run into—I didn’t manage to write about it all, but I know about specific—one specific old woman who walked in a certain neighborhood. I don’t know if they talk about the same woman or another one. They talk about a woman who was killed with her two children. Now, I got a phone call by the field worker of B’Tselem, the field worker who is here in Gaza, and he told me, “I found a family, only that it’s not two people who were killed. It’s five people or four people. And the mother was not killed; she was wounded.” So it doesn’t mean that everything that the soldiers—it doesn’t mean that everything was exactly as it is described, or that there are many other incidents that we don’t—we haven’t reached yet.


AMY GOODMAN: Amira Hass, you’re back in Gaza. We’re about to go to the well-known story—Anjali Kamat saw you in Gaza, Democracy Now! producer—of the Palestinian gynecologist whose voice shocked, stunned Israel, as he wailed on television—


AMIRA HASS: Yeah.


AMY GOODMAN: —that his daughters and his niece had been killed. He was a well-known voice on Israeli television. Could you just introduce it for us, the significance of that moment?


AMIRA HASS: This is just another incident that—it happened by accident to a guy who used to—who works in Israel, who speaks Hebrew, who knows many Israeli big shots and many journalists. So he could call a friend of his who works on Israeli TV and tell him live what was happening. So, for the first time, Israelis believed what was said during the previous two weeks or three weeks of these attacks.


So, again, the—I mean, then he went to—then he was allowed to go with his wounded daughter to a hospital in Israel. This is luxury that not everybody got or most of the people could not get. He could be rescued very quickly. This is—many other Palestinians could not be rescued at all, not even to a Palestinian hospital. And there, he could talk to people and to journalists. So, again, the significance is that his case managed to break a wall, an Israeli wall of unwillingness to know. But the problem is that then people take it as an exceptional case, as an exceptional that tells about the rule. But we know this exceptional case is not exceptional at all.


lots more...
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/3/20/israel_promises_internal_probe_after_soldiers

[bemildred]

1. Sigh, once again. no external probe. nt

[oberliner]

2. What armies have been subject to external probes?

Is there a modern precedent for that?

[IndianaGreen]

3. German and Japanase armies after WWII. And there is the ICC at The Hague

which should be prosecuting American and Israeli war criminals and human rights abusers.

[oberliner]

5. Have there been any external probes since WWII that you know of?

Thanks in advance.

[Violet_Crumble]

6. I for one have absolutely no idea and care even less...

Even if there wasn't, what's yr point?

[oberliner]

7. Thank you for sharing your perspective

I know there have been lots of stories about various armies committing atrocities against civilians (such as the US army whose soldiers raped an Iraqi girl and then killed her and her family) and I was curious if any armies have been subject to external probes recently or if these sorts of situations are always handled internally.

If it is standard practice for armies in similar circumstances to be subject to external probes then I don't see why the IDF should be an exception.

If there have been external probes only in rare cases, then I'd be curious to know what those cases are and why those particular armies were subject to external probes while other armies were not. What has the mechanism been for making these decisions?

[Violet_Crumble]

9. I'll leave you to yr wondering then, coz I'm not the slighest bit interested...

I would think that those of us who are genuinelly interested in getting to the facts of what happened would welcome calls for an external investigation and worry much less about trivialities...

[oberliner]

10. The logistics of the external investigation seem more than trivial

If you welcome calls for an external investigation I would think that you would be interested to learn more about how external investigations have been conducted in the recent past to get a sense for how the international community could go about conducting a similar investigation of the IDF.

What specifically do these investigations look for and what structure is in place to hold those responsible for criminal activity accountable for their actions?

[Violet_Crumble]

11. Nope. It's trivial crap...

What part of It's Fucking Boring Shit isn't making sense? I thought I'd made myself very clear in my previous post, so why are you asking me a question I'm not the slightest bit interested in?

If I thought the 'wondering' had more to do with an actual interest rather than looking for yet another way to claim that Israel's so hard done by coz (nsert name of another state here) got away with something, I'd probably be a bit more sympathetic and nodding politely and hiding my yawns while you wondered away....

[oberliner]

12. I am trying to explain why I don't find it trivial

I am genuinely surprised that you do not agree that the actual means by which the IDF is investigated is of critical importance.

If this investigation would be the first time since the end of WWII that an army has been subject to some sort of external probe then I would think that it would be a precedent setting event and therefore it would be critically important to get it right. Presumably investigations of other armies (the US first I would imagine) would soon follow so it would be important that the process is one that the international community can find consensus on.

If, however, there have been other similar investigations recently, it would be instructive to see how those investigations were structured, what their missions were, and whether or not they were able to carry out those missions successfully.

In any case, I would point out that you inserted yourself into an exchange between myself and another poster just to state that you were not interested in what we were talking about. If it was so uninteresting to you, I'm not sure why you felt compelled to comment except to imply some ulterior motive to my inquiry. I tend to assume your questions are asked in good faith so if that were the case, I wish you had just said so directly in your initial comment and I would not have wasted my time trying to explain why I think my question is significant.

[Violet_Crumble]

13. You explained it several posts back, so why keep repeating yrself?

You've already been told by more than one person in this thread of cases where external investigations happened. So, go grab some books and read up. That's what I do when I genuinely wish to find out about something...

Also, please reread my first post in this thread. It was not as you claimed at all. You asked a question and I answered it. And I don't waste my time implying things. I said what I think. You said what you think. Now I'm off to read more of the hasbara handbook before turning in for the night. It's got some interesting 'debate' tactics like point-scoring that's really funny stuff...

[oberliner]

15. Wow - I read some excerpts from that book you suggested - crazy stuff

Thanks for alerting me to its existence. A site called "Muzzle Watch" has some excerpts from that text available on its website.

It's unfortunate that people try to "score points" rather than engage in actual debate. Certainly I've observed that kind of thing here on DU from those with various perspectives on these issues. It's less than conducive to finding solution and bogs down potentially productive message boards like this one.

I am sorry you are not interested in exploring the question of how best to conduct external investigations of the IDF or other armies. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on the matter as you seem very well-read and generally well-versed on human rights issues but I will not press this question further as you have made clear your lack of interest in pursuing that discussion.

Sometimes searching Google for information can be less than productive so it's nice to have DU folks suggest books or websites which is maybe why I press the issue with some of the more prominent and trusted posters such as yourself and others.

[Violet_Crumble]

25. Yeah, it was a funny document to read...

Totally agree with you that point-scoring bogs down potentially productive forums like this one, and I also think it's highly irritating when it emerges, which it does on occassion here on both sides..

Sorry I sounded snarky last night when I posted and sorry that I assumed that you were doing one of those compare Israel to all other states sort of thing. It's just that I'd be more interested in the actual mechanics of such an investigation if it came into being, rather than now when it's all just pie-in-the-sky stuff. There's always the possibility (though I don't have all that much confidence given the conflict of interest involved) that an internal investigation may well be transparent and above board, and if that happened there'd be no need for an external investigation....

[Howardx]

17. hehe

i just read that section, good call.

[shaayecanaan]

23. External probes since World War II...

There are the obvious examples such as Serbia.

There were two judicial investigations into the British Army's conduct during the Bloody Sunday killings in Northern Ireland. The first was a whitewash, the second was actually probative and was quite critical of the Army.

There is an ongoing commission into the Rwandan patriotic Army's conduct during the genocide. I think there was a similar process with Angola.

There was a Commission of Inquiry in Canada following its debacle in Somalia including torture and abuse on the part of Canadian troops.

There are probably many more, I am simply trying to recall examples.

Specifically regarding Israel, there was an external investigation (a judicial commission) into the IDF's actions vis-a-vis the Sabra and Shatila massacres in 1982.

An internal investigation by an Army is usually a first-stage measure done to simply bide time until it all washes over, which I imagine it will do. Its only if you have sustained public concern (such was the case with the 1982 massacre) that you have any prospect of an external investigation.

[bemildred]

28. Argentina and Chile come to mind too.

Who can forget Pinochet?

[Name removed]

4. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sezu]

20. None of course yet some want to make Israel the ONE

exception.....AGAIN. And isn't it heartening to see how many posters simply assume Israel will LIE. That seems like some nasty prejudice to me. I hope none of them ever get on a freaking jury.

[bemildred]

22. Sigh:

http://books.google.com/books?id=5JBZIoee228C
http://www.npr.org/about/press/061130.ptsd.html
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/20080220-2022-mexico-armyabuse.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,139900,00.html
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-21316188_ITM
http://my.digis.net/webnews/wed/dr/Ubrazil-beatings.RNz4_FNE.shtml
http://theimpudentobserver.com/world-news/us-senate-investigates-military-eavesdropping/
http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pha/congress/part_0.html
http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/1920.asp
http://www.kcra.com/news/9800804/detail.html
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/military/jan-june07/tillman_04-24.html

[Violet_Crumble]

26. Yr post and #23 won't stop the 'but Israel's being singled out!!!' brigade...

That would involve reading about things they don't want to exist, and also clicking on links. On the other hand, this list of links gives someone like Obie, who wants to find out about the mechanics of external investigations, somewhere to at least start off....

[bemildred]

27. I know. The willful ignorance boggles the mind.

As I said in the now deleted sub-thread, it is not the norm for the military to be investigated "externally", but it has happened many times all the same. And it is a good measure of civilian rule to ask whether the civilian government can and does hold its armed forces accountable from time to time.

[shira]

31. too many double standards to count in this conflict.........let's not pretend otherwise

[bemildred]

33. Yes, pretending would definitely be sub-optimal. nt

[Violet_Crumble]

36. I didn't think it was possible to reply to a post without reading a word of it...

..but I've just read the other reply to yr post and have just seen it in action.

[bemildred]

37. No need to waste time on reading if you won't understand anyway.

Saves a lot of time too.

[shira]

24. who gives a crap if Israel is singled out...........yawn

lying bastards, all of them. :eyes:

Allege that Israel and Israelis lie, no problem. "Fuck Israel", no problem. Justify, excuse, or trivialize Palestinian terror, no problem. Try for a moment to apply those accusations in reverse, cue the loud shrieking.

but....YAWN....this is boring, so like who cares? :shrug:

[Sezu]

29. Of course, no one here likely heard THIS radio broadcast

"Fast forward to a few minutes ago. Channel 2 TV Army correspondent Roni Daniel stated at 6:30 PM this evening, that he personally tracked down one of the soldiers interviewed for the Haaretz article. Apparently the soldier's testimony to Haaretz wasn't based on anything he personally saw or witnessed, rather based on rumors and hearsay he heard (and the soldier wasn't even in Gaza!)"

http://muqata.blogspot.com/2009/03/allegations-agaisnt-idf-based-on-rumors.html

But, you know what liars those Israeli radio guys are. I mean what can they know that eludes the MSM and DU Israel haters??? He wuz probably talkin in that Hebroo Jew talk anyways.
/snark

[shira]

30. it gets better

"‘I am a platoon sergeant in an operations company of the Paratroops Brigade. We were in a house and discovered a family inside that wasn't supposed to be there. We assembled them all in the basement, posted two guards at all times and made sure they didn't make any trouble. Gradually, the emotional distance between us broke down - we had cigarettes with them, we drank coffee with them, we talked about the meaning of life and the fighting in Gaza. After very many conversations the owner of the house, a man of 70-plus, was saying it's good we are in Gaza and it's good that the IDF is doing what it is doing.

The next day we sent the owner of the house and his son, a man of 40 or 50, for questioning. The day after that, we received an answer: We found out that both are political activists in Hamas. That was a little annoying - that they tell you how fine it is that you're here and good for you and blah-blah-blah, and then you find out that they were lying to your face the whole time.

What annoyed me was that in the end, after we understood that the members of this family weren't exactly our good friends and they pretty much deserved to be forcibly ejected from there, my platoon commander suggested that when we left the house, we should clean up all the stuff, pick up and collect all the garbage in bags, sweep and wash the floor, fold up the blankets we used, make a pile of the mattresses and put them back on the beds.

... ‘There was one day when a Katyusha, a Grad, landed in Be'er Sheva and a mother and her baby were moderately to seriously injured. They were neighbors of one of my soldiers. We heard the whole story on the radio, and he didn't take it lightly - that his neighbors were seriously hurt. So the guy was a bit antsy, and you can understand him. To tell a person like that, 'Come on, let's wash the floor of the house of a political activist in Hamas, who has just fired a Katyusha at your neighbors that has amputated one of their legs’ - this isn't easy to do, especially if you don't agree with it at all. When my platoon commander said, 'Okay, tell everyone to fold up blankets and pile up mattresses,’ it wasn't easy for me to take. There was lot of shouting. In the end I was convinced and realized it really was the right thing to do. Today I appreciate and even admire him, the platoon commander, for what happened there. In the end I don't think that any army, the Syrian army, the Afghani army, would wash the floor of its enemy’s houses, and it certainly wouldn't fold blankets and put them back in the closets.’

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072475.html

[Sezu]

32. You silly goose. This isn't demonizing Israel.

WTF is WRONG with you? Don't you wanna be part of the gang? I bet you own a t-shirt that kills Palestinian babies with each wearing. Naughty naughty.

[Violet_Crumble]

35. Since when has serious allegations of IDF brutality been 'demonising Israel'?

I bet you own a t-shirt that kills Palestinian babies with each wearing.

And it's clear by these words of yrs that you don't see the seriousness of those tshirts and merely think it's just a joke. Yr attitude is disgusting...

[Sezu]

38. You obviously have NOT been paying attention to the reports

that the soldiers making the accusations were only repeating hearsay and at least one was not even IN Gaza. As for the t-shirt remark, silliness is met with silliness or do you think I seriously believe in t-shirt wearing kittens and bunnies? Save your outrage for something important lest it become less effective.

On a serious note, the t-shirts ARE disgusting and juvenile BUT I know I would rather face a freaking t-shirt than a katusha or a bulldozer or a knife or a suicide bomber in a pizza joint while I am there with my kid.

[Scurrilous]

8. Haaretz Editorial: The lead is cast

<snip>

"Operation Cast Lead ended two months ago in a show of arrogance by Israeli leaders: Hamas had been dealt a crushing defeat that would deter it from firing rockets, and if it continued to smuggle weapons into Gaza the entire international community, from Washington to Cairo, would rally together to intercept them.

The price paid by Gaza's civilian population - hundreds killed, in addition to the hundreds of armed men from Hamas and other organizations - was presented as an unfortunate, but necessary, result of the combat methods required to protect soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces.

With disappointment growing as the operation's declared achievements dissipate, a second wave of evidence and revelations is being heard from the soldiers who were there, who saw what was happening and are sometimes even describing what they themselves did.

Amos Harel reports in Haaretz today and tomorrow about a discussion held a month ago among the graduates of the pre-army program at Oranim, who took part in the Gaza fighting as combat soldiers and junior officers.

This is a modern version of "The Seventh Day," the book published after the Six-Day War that highlighted the soul-searching of the generation that fought a justified defensive war, but found itself dragged afterward into acts that contradicted the moral values it prided itself on. The grandchildren of this same Six-Day War group are now teaching in their testimony that the situation is even more worrying than in 1967.

The soldiers describe the killing of innocent civilians, pointless destruction, expulsions of families from homes seized as temporary outposts, disregard for human life and a tendency toward brutalization. This scandalous behavior did not stem from the policy of the senior commanders. It resulted from the disconnect between the battalion commanders and higher officers, versus their subordinates in the companies, platoons and houses where the soldiers waited for fighting to resume after Hamas retreated from the crowded urban battlefield. When the soldiers had no one to fight, they fought what was there.

The IDF's internal investigations, which are moving ahead very slowly, are not enough. The army is absorbing more and more religious extremism from the teachings of the IDF's rabbinate. It would be appropriate to investigate the problems from outside the IDF and root them out before the rot destroys the IDF and Israeli society."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072247.html

[bemildred]

14. "Internal probe" makes me think of a self-administered colonoscopy somehow. nt

[ProgressiveMuslim]

18. Certainly the diagnosis will be a few pesky polyps rather than invasive cancer. nt

[bemildred]

19. Bad apples! Loose cannons! People crazed by all the bad shit going down!

I remember when I was a lot younger, when self-administered investigations were in bad repute in the USA. But then the Kennedy assassination came along, and the others, and Nixon, and Raygun, and now it's almost like you are guilty of disrespect for suggesting that people ought not investigate themselves. The apex of this development was Cheney's nationwide search for a VP candidate, which concluded that Cheney, of all people, was the best possible running mate for Bush the Younger. All of these, of course, are called "Blue Ribbon" commissions. I never have figured out what that means, except you aren't supposed to question it. I look forward to the day when non-governmental wrongdoers are allowed to conduct their own trials too.

[azurnoir]

21. Kind of reminds me of Abu Ghraib

the IDF has already attempted to suppress or discredit the testimonies so now the investigation will be interesting

[bemildred]

34. Ashkenazi is looking Rumsfeldian, yeah.

I wonder if some underlings will get thrown on their swords.

[Howardx]

16. im sure

some american who owns a whitewash factory just got a huge order. they will never deal with the real problem.

[Sezu]

39. Sounds like you believe that Israel is incapable of

being truthful and that a "whitewash," is all we can expect. Kinda puts you out of the running when it comes to rational discussion now doesn't it? But, on the plus side, it puts you at the head of the line for automatic demonization.