'Cast Lead death ratio an achievement'

[Fozzledick]

By JPOST.COM STAFF

The ratio between terrorists and civilians killed by the IDF during Operation Cast Lead is an achievement that other armies find difficult to match, OC Southern Command Maj.-Gen. Yoav Galant said on Tuesday in his first comments since the three-week-long battle ended in mid-January.

"A feeling of pride washes over me because we have a moral army that adheres to international law," Galant said at a conference honoring Health Corps troops serving in the Southern Command in Ashkelon.

"800 terrorists and 300 civilians, who we did not want to harm, were killed in the last operation," Galant said. "This ratio of almost a quarter uninvolved is an achievement unmatched in the history of this kind of combat," he added.

"The combat soldiers were faced with difficult moral dilemmas... commanders had to find a moral balance at a time when every mistake could have brought about the failure of the mission or the death of civilians," Galant continued.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1237727530093&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Of course, the more care Israel takes to avoid civilian casualties, the worse they're vilified by those who just want to push them all into the sea... :popcorn:

[Arctic Dave]

1. I always like it when kill ratios are nicely even.

Were the terrorist wearing their "I'm a Terrorist" T-shirt for easy body counting?

[Fozzledick]

2. "I expected 72 virgins but all I got was this lousy t-shirt"

[Arctic Dave]

3. Yeah, that one is always a dead give away.

[Agony]

4. The fact that you think this issue can be reduced to "popcorn entertainment"

is disgusting beyond measure.

Over and out.

.

[Fozzledick]

5. Nah, what I find too absurd to take seriously is the extreme spin aroud here

from the Israel-haters who are desperate to deny them the basic right to self-defense.

[Tripmann]

6. Almost as absurd

as believing that you can decimate the most populated area on earth and get a kill ratio of 8:3 of terrorists.

Please feel free to insult your own intelligence, most people aren't that gullible.

By the way, whats the latest method for the IDF deciding whos a terrorist? Is it still a dead male over 14?

[cali]

30. bullpucky. I don't hate Israel. At all.

I do hate discreet actions on the part of the Israeli gov't, just as I hate discreet actions on the part of the U.S. gov't. And I don't consider the ill begotten "Cast Lead", a basic exercise in the right to self-defense. Your making jokes out of this and then lamely trying to excuse those jokes, is sick. Seek help.

[Fozzledick]

38. Methinks thou doth protest too much

Not to be snarky, but if you don't identify with the haters. then why did you take my remark so personally? And if you can't understand why I prefer to mock them rather than curse them, well there you are!

[Violet_Crumble]

59. WTF? All she did was correct yr ridiculous comment...

Get a grip. Now no-one's supposed to correct you lest you 'mock' them and call them haters? Y'know, I always live in hope that there'll one day be more serious discussion in this forum than folk like you who thrive on throwing ad-homs around. If yr just here to 'mock', why are you bothering? All yr doing is annoying folk who want to have a serious discussion about the conflict...

[Fozzledick]

73. What serious discussion? This forum is a bad joke from a Monty Python sketch

I come in looking for an argument and all I get is abuse!

And for what it's worth, I've found mockery to be the most effective way to deal with online wingnuts of all varieties; they ignore reasoned arguments and relish exchanging direct insults, but they can't tolerate being laughed at.

[bemildred]

7. Well, I guess if nobody else is going to praise you, you just have to praise yourself. nt

[Fozzledick]

8. Yeah, responding directly to false accusations is so self-indulgent!

[bemildred]

10. Guppies swallow anything placed in front of them.

Just saying.

[Fozzledick]

17. Hmmm, is that why I got so many bites with such obvious bait?

Of course, it's nothing like the feeding frenzy over ZOMG! War crimes! Israeli soldiers publicly admit they feel bad about seeing a civilian caught in the cross-fire! or the T-Shirts of Mass Destruction!

[bemildred]

18. Yeah, probably.

Or people are bored.

[azurnoir]

42. Considering the post to which you replied

I think a goldfish analogy is perhaps more apt

[bemildred]

47. You mean carp?

:-)

[Violet_Crumble]

23. Obvious bait? You posted a load of complete crap...

And ruather than try to defend the claims made in it, you embarked on a spree of labelling anyone who dares to criticise, let alone question, what was done to Palestinian civilians in Gaza as *haters*, miss by a mile bemildred's point in his comment about guppies, and then go on to make a sarcastic comment about anyone who had a problem with the bigotry in the anti-arab t-shirts...

[bemildred]

35. No, Mr Dick is right, I thought he was trolling when he put it up.

But I usually don't comment on that sort of thing, since I sometimes do it myself. But you are right, he "missed" the point I was making with the guppy comment. One can only speculate as to why that is so.

[bemildred]

9. IDF: 600 Hamas men, 309 civilians died in Gaza op

More than 600 of the Palestinians killed during Operation Cast Lead in Gaza have been identified as militants, while another 309 were innocent civilians, according to an updated list of Palestinian losses issued by the Israel Defense Forces.

The list, prepared by the IDF's Coordination and Liaison Authority for the Gaza Strip, is significantly different from the one the Palestinians use. The Israeli document lists 1,370 fatalities, whereas different Palestinian lists range from 1,324 to 1,434. The IDF claims to have identified 1,249 of those on its list.

According to the IDF, more than 600 of the dead have been identified as members of a militant organization. This includes the police officers who were killed in an attack on their academy's graduation parade on December 27, the first day of the operation.

A total of 309 are described as "uninvolved," meaning they have been confirmed as innocent civilians. Another 320 are described as "unaffiliated," which means the IDF has not yet determined whether they have any affiliation with a militant group. Finally, 14 fatalities were members of Fatah whom Hamas executed during the fighting.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1073734.html

[ProgressiveMuslim]

12. The view from Palestine: The dead linclude 926 civilians, 255 police officers, and 236 fighters

http://www.pchrgaza.org/files/PressR/English/2008/36-2009.html

[bemildred]

14. Yes, I know. Just pointing out that the IDF does not even agree with this weasel in the OP. nt

[ProgressiveMuslim]

15. Gross, huh. nt

[Name removed]

11. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

13. An achievement to be ashamed of indeed. nt

[Sezu]

16. So you would have preferred they have a HIGHER ratio?

Now that IS shameful.

[shira]

19. What's amazing is how almost all Israelis who serve in the IDF or have friends and

family who serve (like doctors, lawyers, and journalists) all buy into this "most moral army" and low civilian Gaza death-count nonsense.

:eyes:

I mean, gosh, are they stupid or ignorant, or maybe they expect the rest of the world to be stupid and ignorant? Not me! What nerve, those people! I thought Jews Zionists were smarter, actually.

Are they like, delusional or what? You know?

:sarcasm:

[ProgressiveMuslim]

20. Yes... 900+ dead civilians. How many children?

That entire debacle is unraveling publicly, between the death toll, world reaction, and now the soldiers' testimoney, the graffiti, the T-shirts.

The Gaza massacres should be a source of national shame.

[shira]

21. but most Israelis believe the IDF is the most moral.....and they're proud of the IDF's

overall efforts in Gaza, considering what they were up against (an enemy like no other in history that has tried so hard to maximize its own civilian casualties).

[ProgressiveMuslim]

24. Pretty twisted, huh? Hard to fathom.

Pretty ironic considering one of the ways in which pro-Israeli posters here often vilify Palestinians for their attitude following the deaths of Israelis....

[shira]

25. it's different

WRT Palestinians polled about Mercaz Harav, for example, 84% were for such terror operations. However, wrt OCL in general, not attempted genocide, warcrimes, etc...there was overwhelming support from Israelis. Even in the latest JStreet poll, only 9% polled were vehemently against OCL. That doesn't mean most Jews are for massacres and killing babies - it means they agree with Israel's right to self-defense.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

26. Should be an interesting study in national psychology

"how does a nuclear-armed nation, that has violently occupied a civilian population for 40+ years convince itself it is the vulnerable victim?"

Time for a reality check, people!

[LeftishBrit]

33. Perhaps many of the Palestinians polled think that such terror operations are for self-defence

That doesn't mean that they're right (in fact they're wrong - such operations are not just immoral but counterproductive).

But on the whole people don't support violence for its own sake. They often support it when they think - rightly or wrongly - that it's necessary to protect themselves or protect their nation.

And I have noticed that polls of both Israelis and Palestinians tend to give hugely different results according to exact question asked and perhaps other factors. On the whole, there seems to be an approximately 50-50 split between hawks and doves on both sides - but there are specific actions that have been supported by a lot more on each side.

[cali]

31. what a load of crap.

yes, yes, the israelis are up against the most demonic forces in the history of the world. And you provide zero evidence that Hamas tried to maximize civilian deaths. Furthermore, you might consider that the Israelis have a vested interest in 'considering the IDF the most moral army in the world'. And that's another crock. Armies aren't and can't be 'moral'. They can do things that are moral/immoral/amoral, but there is no such critter as a moral army.

[shira]

43. I didn't say Hamas is one of the most demonic forces in history

but they do try very hard to maximize civilian losses. Harder than any other military force in history. Realize that they know very well every civilian loss is a propaganda victory. Israel isn't stupid. They know this too. Which is why they try to minimize civilian casualties.

From stopping Palestinian wounded from getting care in Egypt or Israel to sending shields to rooftops targeted by the IDF, or firing rockets from schoolyards, UN buildings, and hospitals - then running off and blending in with the crowd. Hamas knows that if Israel fires back, civilian loss is probable. If Israel doesn't fire back, Hamas can keep firing at will. The point is that they send shields to rooftops knowing either that Israel will fire on them (which means Hamas wants to maximize civilian casualties) or that Israel will not fire on them (knowing Israel is moral and Hamas then gets away with anything they want). It's win/win for Hamas.

Here's one editorial that summarizes some of Hamas' stunts from OCL. If you were keeping up with the forum a couple months ago, all these stories and incidents of Hamas maximizing civilian losses were reported in various newspapers:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jan/08/hamas-palestinian-victims/

[Idealism]

51. Shira, I would't link to the Washington Times on DU

It really hurts the credibility...

Off topic question: how long have you lived in Boston, if I may ask?

[shira]

61. the info. in that article was all cited here just weeks ago from credible sources like the NYT

just using the article as a source, that's all. If anything in the article appears objectionable, it wouldn't take too long to google the source of the info in order to verify its credibility. I've been in the area about 6 years now, why?

[Idealism]

67. Just wondering

Did you move from out of the country?

[azurnoir]

41. Why yes indeed Shira

one can plainly see how Israeli's almost all of whom have served or have a brother, sister, son, daughter, wife, husband, grandchild, would be so anxious to uncover any war crime or wrongful behavior those people have committed either now or in the past, those who would disagree must never ever have read history because there are no examples of mass denial or willful ignorance amongst a population who either themselves or those close may have committed wrongful acts in time of war or occupation.

[shira]

45. two possibilities

1. Most Israelis are in willful denial
2. Most Israelis know better than you what's really going on and ignore all demonizing efforts against them

[azurnoir]

46. There is also a third possibility as illustrated here

" I don't know how to describe it .... The lives of Palestinians, let's say, is something very, very less important than the lives of our soldiers. So as far as they are concerned they can justify it that way," he said.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x266077

in other words they were justified

[shira]

48. depends on how you read that

1. If you're in the IDF and it's between you and a Hamas combatant, then in that case it's a no-brainer and self-preservation takes precedence. But maybe you disagree?

2. If it's about a Palestinian civilian in the line of fire and a decision is made to take out a number of combatants at the risk of killing that one Palestinian civilian......you don't believe such an act to take out the combatants and 1 civilian is justified?

[bemildred]

49. It's called "fire discipline".

Soldiers are not supposed to start shooting because they feel threatened. They are supposed to follow the rules of engagement they are given. That can easily include holding their fire when they are under fire. The point being that in a disciplined army "self-preservation" does not take predecence. That is a mob. "Don't shoot until you see the whites of their eyes".

So you have two choices, they were ordered to shoot at anything that moved, or they were undisciplined soldiers.

In the same way, killing civilians is never justified simply because the soldiers think they see some "militants".

[shira]

58. come on now

Even in the most recently alleged case of the Gazan woman and her children turning left instead of right and being fired at.....she wasn't shot at all, only warning shots were fired. That's not a case of undisciplined soldiers who shoot anything that moves. One thing the IDF chose not to do was follow protocol from Jenin 2002 and Lebanon 2006, incidents in which they were so careful they sustained more casualties than they should have.

[bemildred]

64. Google it up. It's on Wiki,

I'm just pointing out that the soldiers are supposed to have instructions about these things and to follow them. It would be interesting to know what the instructions given the soldiers were, and whether they carried them out of not, but I don't expect that we will be told, though there seems to be lots of rumor and opinion and hear-say.

I do not agree that the OP is an unimpeachable source whose assertions must be believed.

[shaayecanaan]

22. Its always good to have such nice, round numbers...

like 800 and 300. Rolls off the tongue a lot better.

So well, in fact, that Israel have just announced a new set of nice round numbers. Apparently the death toll is now 600 terrorists and 300 innocents. Apparently the dog-tags for some 200 terrorists were left under somebody's cat.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1073734.html

[cali]

27. excuse me while I vomit over your sick post.

popcorn over devastation and death? Shows where you're at. And seeing as all of it was unfuckingneccessary and didn't do a thing to protect Israeli citizens, the claim is a sham.

[Violet_Crumble]

28. I think there's a rule against vomiting in the forum!

See, I always go out in sympathy! Barf bags are available from the mods on request ;)

fwiw, while I thought the popcorn was bad enough, they surpassed even that when they sarcastically referred to the bigoted and hateful t-shirts worn by some soldiers as 'tshirts of mass destruction'....

[cali]

29. sheesh. no vomiting in the forum?

but it's so often vomitworthy. and the op definitely makes the grade.

[Fozzledick]

37. Oh please, feel free to express yourself as best you can

Just don't act so shocked when you find me laughing at your self-righteous pomposity.

[cali]

39. I'd much rather come off as self-righteous than

as a callous asshole who thinks that the death of civilians is just a popcorn opportunity. that really sucks.

[Fozzledick]

44. Was I wrong to anticipate ridiculous rationalizations and disingenuous duplicity

from the usual Israel-bashers? I think you've proven my point pretty well.

And whether you're unable to comprehend it or just unwilling to admit it doesn't really matter.

[Violet_Crumble]

60. Wow, now Cali's an 'Israel-basher'? That's kinda pathetic...

You've just proven that you really can't tolerate even the slightest criticism of Israel. Are you the same when it comes to the US and criticism of it?

[Douglas Carpenter]

62. imagine being trapped in a brain that cannot allow any hint of criticism even from

an ardent supporter. I am glad that although I consider myself a supporter of the Palestinians, I freely state without fear that I am betraying their cause ANYTIME I disagree. And the Palestinians I know, all feel free to express their disagreement ANYTIME they chose.

But imagine a mind set that requires someone to unconditionally support their favored state, to dismiss out-of-had all facts that question the absolute perfection of their favored state and to be abusive to even the most ardent fellow supporters of the same state for not being strident enough.

Mao's Red Guard would have been genuinely impressed with such unquestioning party discipline.

[Violet_Crumble]

63. I find the whole *basher! hater!* thing so puerile...

Unquestioning and unconditional support of any country, organisation, or political ideology makes the supporter, imo, an extremist, as well as not being very bright at all. They remind me of bemildred's guppies :)

[Douglas Carpenter]

65. of course. Unconditional support for a state is certainly not a democratic value

and it is certainly not a Jewish value either. The iconoclastic tradition in Jewish society is one of Jewish culture's most admirable qualities.

The whole value that says that the state, any state, or any political organization must unconditionally be defended at all cost - and all critics must be vilified and abused, even critical supporters - is something straight out of Orwell's 1984.

If a Palestinian organization carries out a terror attack that kills children, do we obstinately insist that it never happened and that those who claim that it happened are liars, haters and bashers?

[cali]

66. well, I'm afraid you're a little bit off

I'm hardly an ardent supporter of Israel. In fact, I'm no more that than I am Israel basher. I support peace. I stand against hate and intolerance. Period. I'm not wedded to an ideology. I oppose the occupation of the WB and Gaza. I think it's interesting that you need to peg me as an ardent supporter of Israel and that the poster you're referring to feels the need to peg me as an Israel basher.

[Fozzledick]

68. Excuse me, but I didn't peg you as anything,

just responded to your apparent defense of that position wrapped in gratuitous personal insults.
See post #38 for clarification.

On the other hand, you've made it difficult not to think of you as a member of the Vomit Brigade that can't stomach rejection of their ideological dogma.

[cali]

69. exxuse me, but you did. And you just did it again.

[Fozzledick]

71. Well, excuse me if I think this is getting silly,

but then that's the original point you missed in the first place.

[Douglas Carpenter]

72. oh, I understand Mother Superior

O8)

[cali]

75. whatever, my son.

[Fozzledick]

70. No need to imagine, you've demonstrated it quite well.

[LeftishBrit]

74. Cali isn't a 'usual Israel-basher'; she criticizes both sides.

And frankly, right at this moment, both sides thoroughly deserve it.

[LeftishBrit]

32. Sounds like fairly typical 'spin' by people-in-charge when there is a risk of scandal

Of course, it happens everywhere. Hardly unique to Israel.

'Of course, the more care Israel takes to avoid civilian casualties, the worse they're vilified by those who just want to push them all into the sea... '

Well, there are undoubtedly some who like to vilify Israel whatever it does. But I wouldn't take the word of a general involved in the operation about how much care was involved to avoid civilian casualties.

[geek tragedy]

34. Avigdor Lieberman posts at DU? n/t

[Idealism]

36. Amazing how the total dead is still being disputed internally by the Israelis

that said, the OP is inflammatory.

[azurnoir]

40. So are to "assume" that IDF counted each and every

shooting or other death as they went? My how thorough of them to take the time to do that.

[IndianaGreen]

50. On August 31, 1939, the radio reported that Poland had attacked Germany

The following day, the German Chancellor told the Reichstag that German troops were repelling Poland's attack. Untold number of people believed this story, which seems so patently absurd today. In 1931, an equally large number of people believed that Chinese terrorists dynamited a section of railroad tracks owned by a Japanese railroad. We now know that what became known as the Mundken Incident was staged my Japanese militarists as a pretext to launch an attack in Manchuria.

More recently, an American general heaped praises on a school at Fort Benning that had graduated some of the most notorious murderers, torturers, and human rights abusers in Latin American history. This general would run for the Democratic nomination in 2004.

What are we to make of General Galant's bombastic remarks at this conference, particularly when put in the context of the three previous examples above?

[Fozzledick]

53. Godwined already!

[Sezu]

54. That's the second Nazi card he's played in the last two days.

Must just be second nature.

[IndianaGreen]

55. Poor baby, the analogy to German, Japanese, and American war spin just went right over your head

No wonder you are stuck on second gear.

[Fozzledick]

56. I was going to say something about seeing where you get your rhetorical inspiration from

but I hate to unnecessarily belabor the obvious.

[oberliner]

57. Are you referring to Wes Clark?

Not a fan of his?

[EFerrari]

52. Wow. How disgusting is that.

[rateyes]

76. More proof that figures don't lie, but liars figure. nt