Religious IDF troops walk out of event featuring woman singer

[IndianaGreen]

And we complain in America when fundies claim a religious exemption to dispensing birth control pills at a pharmacy. We should all be combating patriarchal religious intolerance.

Religious IDF troops walk out of event featuring woman singer

By Amos Harel

About 100 religious soldiers left a Paratroop Brigade assembly earlier this month to avoid being present at the performance of a female singer, the army weekly Bamahane reported last week.

Their departure stemmed from their belief that halakha, or Jewish religious law, prohibits them from hearing a woman sing. Their position has the support of the army rabbinate.

The case is only the latest of several such incidents of which Haaretz has learned. The first was reported about two years ago.

This month's incident occurred two weeks ago in Haifa, when the Paratroop Brigade was marking its service in the recent Operation Cast Lead in Gaza. The event featured a short performance by male and female singers, both members of the brigade, who performed the brigade anthem.

At that point, soldiers from the hesder program, which combines yeshiva study with army service, left the performance, after notifying their commanders. Several officers wearing skullcaps did the same. No disciplinary action has been taken against those who left.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1073722.html

[Zenlitened]

1. Um, when fundie pharms refuse to dispense birth control...

... that *is* patriarchal religious intolerance, isn't it?

:shrug:

[HeresyLives]

2. Killing is okay.

Listening to a woman sing is immoral.

Riiiight.

[IndianaGreen]

4. To these religious wackos, women's voices are 'lewd.'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=262540

Reform women rabbis' prayer at Western Wall draws wrath of ultra-Orthodox

By Cnaan Liphshiz, Haaretz Correspondent

North American female rabbis from the Reform Movement stirred up controversy at the Western Wall Wednesday, when they defied Orthodox Jewish customs by praying and singing aloud while wearing prayer shawls and skull caps at the holy site.

The women, who are in Israel for a gathering of the Central Conference of American Rabbis, arrived at the Western Wall at about 7 A.M. along with members of the Women of the Wall organization, which regularly organizes prayers at the site for ultra-Orthodox, Reform and Conservative women.

"There were about 70 of us praying when someone from the men's section started shouting that 'a woman's voice is lewd' and that our singing was offensive," said Anat Hoffman, an activist for Reform Judaism in Israel who attended the prayer. "I was ashamed in front of the guests from America."

Jackie Ellenson, one of the visitors who attended the prayer, told Haaretz that several ultra-Orthodox women then approached and demanded that the Reform prayers remain quiet and that the women rabbis take off the shawls and skull caps.

The Orthodox women, according to Hoffman, called the police after presenting themselves as the Western Wall "chastity keepers."

"These chastity keepers were loud and very rude, but there was no violence," Hoffman said. Hod Hasharon's chief Ashkenazi rabbi, Reuven Hiller - an outspoken critic of the Reform Movement - called the act "an unnecessary provocation," adding, "They may pray in their synagogues with shawls but why come to a place revered by all sects and offend people there?"

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1067028.html

[cali]

3. had the army cancelled the performance by the woman

that would be equivalent to the pharma refusal rule instituted by bushco. they didn't. you may not be able to get rid of fundy jobs, but giving into them is the real problem.

[madville]

5. What's the problem with people having the freedom to be wrong?

When you look at that region Israel is probably the best on Womens' rights in relation to their enemies.

If their religion forbids it I would hope they have the right to not be forced to watch it. Nothing wrong with freedom, the woman was free to sing, they were free to not watch it, others chose to watch it. What's the problem with people having the freedom to be wrong?

In Saudi Arabia the woman singer would probably be stoned to death

[IndianaGreen]

6. Remember that religion was used to justify segregation and anti-miscegenation laws

As a Marxist I am opposed to giving the pulpit the right to preach intolerance and reactionary views.

[madville]

8. I don't want to limit peoples' rights

I don't want to limit peoples' rights, they should be free to advertise what idiots they are.

"As a Marxist I am opposed to giving the pulpit the right to preach intolerance and reactionary views.
"

Who should be in charge of limiting those rights? I certainly wouldn't want the government regulating religion and neither does the Constitution.

[IndianaGreen]

10. When religion plays a role in the political arena, such as it did on Prop-8

it loses whatever rights it once enjoyed. Lenin said that religion was a private affair, but there was a caveat.

Religion must be declared a private affair. In these words socialists usually express their attitude towards religion. But the meaning of these words should be accurately defined to prevent any misunderstanding. We demand that religion be held a private affair so far as the state is concerned. But by no means can we consider religion a private affair so far as our Party is concerned. Religion must be of no concern to the state, and religious societies must have no connection with governmental authority. Everyone must be absolutely free to profess any religion he pleases, or no religion whatever, i.e., to be an atheist, which every socialist is, as a rule. Discrimination among citizens on account of their religious convictions is wholly intolerable. Even the bare mention of a citizen’s religion in official documents should unquestionably be eliminated. No subsidies should be granted to the established church nor state allowances made to ecclesiastical and religious societies. These should become absolutely free associations of like-minded citizens, associations independent of the state. Only the complete fulfilment of these demands can put an end to the shameful and accursed past when the church lived in feudal dependence on the state, and Russian citizens lived in feudal dependence on the established church, when medieval, inquisitorial laws (to this day remaining in our criminal codes and on our statute-books) were in existence and were applied, persecuting men for their belief or disbelief, violating men’s consciences, and linking cosy government jobs and government-derived incomes with the dispensation of this or that dope by the established church. Complete separation of Church and State is what the socialist proletariat demands of the modern state and the modern church.

V.I. Lenin
Socialism and Religion (1905)

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/dec/03.htm

[Idealism]

12. You don't want to limit people's rights when you deem them appropriate

But Islamic law is something that you single out especially?

[bemildred]

7. What a great example of secular democracy. nt

[Jefferson23]

9. Some who have lived oppression are fighting back,

even though the steps are not huge, nonetheless, change is coming for these women. Here is hoping for their success!


Saudi women to spurn lingerie shops over salesmen

By DONNA ABU-NASR, Associated Press Writer Donna Abu-nasr, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 24 mins ago

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia – Before her wedding last year, Huda Batterjee went abroad to buy her bridal lingerie — she just couldn't bear the humiliation of discussing her most intimate apparel with a man. She had little choice: there are almost no saleswomen in Saudi Arabia. Now a group of Saudi women — sick of having to deal with male sales staff when buying bras or panties, not to mention frilly negligees or thongs — have launched a campaign this week to boycott lingerie stores until they employ women.

It's an irony of the kingdom's strict segregation of the sexes. Only men are employed as sales staff to keep women from having to deal with male customers or work around men.

But in lingerie stores, that means men are talking to women about bras or thongs, looking them up and down to determine their cup sizes, even rubbing the underwear to show how stains can be washed out.

The result is mortifying for everyone involved — shoppers, salesmen, even the male relatives who accompany the women.

"When I buy underwear in Saudi, some salesmen say, 'This is not the right size for you,'" said Batterjee. "You feel almost taken advantage of. Why is he looking at me in this way?"

So for her wedding trousseau, the 26-year-old went to neighboring Dubai to shop. She now lives in Virginia with her husband.

Heba al-Akki, a businesswoman who supports the boycott, said when she shops for underwear, "I go to a store, pick this, this and that and leave quickly. It's as if I'm buying illegal stuff."

It's not easy on the salesmen either.

At one lingerie boutique in a Riyadh mall Wednesday, salesmen blushed when asked about their jobs. All said they back the campaign to hire female sales staff.

remainder here: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090325/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_saudi_lingerie_boycott

[scarletwoman]

11. Israel, the Shining Light of Western Civilization in the Middle East.

Setting an elightened example for those backward Muslims.

[Sezu]

14. Well no woman was KILLED for honour so as obnoxious as

the act was, it is pale beside SOME religious beliefs in that region wouldn't you say?

[Shaktimaan]

17. Well, in this case, yes. You're right.

I know you meant it sarcastically, but it's true. The soldiers did not approve of the performance so they quietly left without demanding that the performance stop, trying to disrupt it, or arresting and stoning the women to death.

This is a very good example of how conservative religious people can share a society with secular folks without stampeding on their rights... which is not always the case in Israel. But in this case, it's really a very good example of a multi-belief society successfully and peacefully working.

You should not disparage these soldiers just because their belief system is different or more conservative than your own. That is actually quite intolerant behavior on your part.

[rockymountaindem]

13. That's ridiculous n/t

[Scurrilous]

15. IDF lets rabbis blur boundaries between religion and state

<snip>

"The plans to renovate the swimming pool at the army's Bahad 1 officers' school are not surprising, but they should be cause for concern. At first glance, it's an issue of adapting to changing needs at the base as a result of the rising number of religiously observant trainees and officers. In practice, it is another ill wind blowing from the religious radicalization that is taking control of the Israel Defense Forces.

The new norm is light-years away from the IDF's noble aspiration of permitting all people to conduct their daily lives in accordance with their needs - religious or otherwise - during their military service. The IDF has always created an environment that meets the needs of the religious, particularly in matters of kashruth, worship and Shabbat observance. Despite considerable difficulty, such as the need to violate the Sabbath for military exercises or operations, religious soldiers have been successfully integrated into the army.

The current demand for stricter observance, to accommodate the rabbis of the extreme right-wing, nationalist-ultra Orthodox stream, is not the natural result of the rise in the number of knitted-skullcap wearers in various IDF units and training bases. Rather, it is due to the persistence of a few rabbis whom the IDF allows to blur the boundaries between religion and state, and between the messianic and the military. These rabbis, whose strongest representative in the IDF is the chief military rabbi, Brig. Gen. Avichai Rontzki, seek to apply the worldview and lifestyle of the extreme side of the nationalist-ultra-Orthodox camp to the army of the people.

It is being done in a blunt, aggressive fashion: Soldiers and officers walk out of a performance featuring female singers for fear of transgressing against the religious injunction against hearing women sing in public. Rabbis - who have usurped the role of the army's education officers - give pre-battle speeches in which they encourage combat soldiers to kill and destroy in the name of an angry and jealous God. And female soldiers, whose numbers on the battlefield have also risen sharply, are deemed to be a distraction that should be removed from sight.

Israeli society, including the IDF, has undergone enormous changes since the founding of the state. The official melting pot, with its strictly secular character, has given way to softened multiculturalism. Extremist elements who seek to impose a racist, chauvinist, separatist and dangerous agenda on the army and the state exploit this shift. The defense minister must stop this destructive process, revise the IDF's regulations and redefine the army as an institution belonging to the entire society."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1074563.html


Families of religious soldiers get a base motel

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1074016.html

[Shaktimaan]

16. Your comment makes no sense.

Preventing people from having access to birth control is an example of fundies interfering in OTHER people's lives because of their own religious beliefs; essentially imposing their beliefs upon the rest of society.

In Israel, these people merely chose not to be present at an event that offended their religious sensibilities. I would hope that everyone should have the right to make choices such as that for themselves. After all, that's what religious freedom is all about. In no way is this an example of patriarchal religious intolerance. Not at all. Your example of American fundy actions actually do however.

You really seem to have your wires crossed here in terms of what actually constitutes intolerance. The Israeli soldiers' actions did not impact anyone else; they did not insist that the show be shut down or anything, they just left themselves.

[Violet_Crumble]

20. Their actions are most certainly impacting on women, and it is intolerance...

The Israeli soldiers' actions did not impact anyone else; they did not insist that the show be shut down or anything, they just left themselves.

You'd be the first to be up in arms if someone's religious beliefs led them to walk out of something as soon as a Jew got up and talked, so why give misogynists a pass when it comes to their stoneage attitudes towards women? Of course that sort of behaviour impacts on the women they're walking out on. Not being a woman yrself shouldn't be an excuse for not being able to see that a woman who gets up to speak, sing or whatever is going to feel like she's being made out to be worthless when a bunch of religious twits leave on cue with the blessing of their commanders for the sole reason that she's a woman...

And there have been attempts to stop women from participating. From the article:

'Sources in the army rabbinate said that halakha supports the soldiers' decision to leave. The rabbinate has urged commanders to show sensitivity in such situations and either to excuse religious soldiers in advance from attending any portion of a ceremony that poses a problem or to simply not feature female singers at such programs.'

and

'Army sources reported that another brigade recently canceled the appearance of a female singer at a program for commanders after two religious battalion commanders said they would not be able to participate in such an event.'

This is nothing but religious intolerance, and there's no way it should be tolerated in the army of a secular democracy. And it says something that while the officer quoted in the article says such behaviour shouldn't be afforded legitimacy, yr defending it as not being intolerant and not having an impact on anyone...

Again from the article:

'But the army's chief education officer, Brig. Gen. Eli Shermeister, called the incident a "worrisome phenomenon" that "should not be accorded continued legitimacy." Events like this are designed to foster group cohesion, he explained, so allowing some participants to leave would defeat the purpose.'

[LeftishBrit]

18. Well, I think they're ridiculous

Nonetheless, let's note that in this particular case, they acted in the way that I would generally recommend to all religious righties: if something offends your beliefs, don't stay around it. Go away, or avoid being there in the first place. Don't expect the world to cater to your attitudes - it's your responsibility, not theirs.

I would prefer if there were no religious righties at all, but if all acted in the way these did, then they would be much less bother than they are. If they'd tried to get the singer banned, it would be a different story.

[Violet_Crumble]

21. But there have been instances of trying to get female singers banned...

I pointed out the part of the article that talks of attempts to ban women in my post to Shakti

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=267457&mesg_id=268617

Also, would you be recommending that religious fundies who not only have a problem with women, but with Jews, do the same if a Jew got up and spoke in front of them? Getting up and walking out on anyone based on their gender or their ethnicity is totally unacceptable...

[geek tragedy]

19. Absurd and backwards, but this is the least offensive

thing I've read about the fundies.

So they didn't listen to someone sing--sfw? The use of white phosphorus, on the other hand . . .