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Final offer: J'lem concessions and settler evictions

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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 07:53 PM
Original message
Final offer: J'lem concessions and settler evictions
Olmert explains offer from Sept. 2008, to which Abbas has yet to respond, which would grant Palestinians 93% of W. Bank and parts of the capital

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert attempted to clarify Thursday alleged promises he had made in a so-called 'final offer' to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas in September 2008, which included the eviction of tens of thousands of settlers and territorial concessions in Jerusalem.

"There was one point when I put things on the table and offered Abbas something that had never been offered and dealt with the crux of the problem, with the most sensitive issues that touch the most exposed nerves and historical obstacles," Olmert said during a Thursday conference in Herzliya.

"I told him – 'let's sign.' It was half a year ago and I'm still waiting," he said.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3692964,00.html
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Idealism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 09:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. Abbas has no power over Gaza and thus no power over terrorism against Israel.
Any offer made to Abbas alone is sorely short-sighted and implausible. It makes me wonder why even offer this, when they know it will be broken by militant groups.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 04:42 AM
Response to Reply #1
17. And the Israeli government spent so much time humiliating Fatah and the PA
before Hamas took over Gaza that it destroyed Fatah's credibility. As a result, if Abbas signed anything, he'd likely be killed and Hamas' support would go as high in the West Bank as it is in Gaza.

The lesson is, don't humiliate the people you want to make peace with, especially when it's impossible to actually ever beat them in combat once and for all.

The Israeli government needs to take a series of actions to restore the PA's credibility and to raise the level of respect it holds in the eyes of the Palestinian people.

In the short term, an apology for all West Bank settlement construction since 1973(the year Sharon invented the "settler movement")would be a start. An admission that it was wrong to trap Arafat in his compound in Ramallah and deliberately shame him in the eyes of his own people would be another. A absolutely permanent settlement moratorium would be a third.

I can see any reason anyone should object to these.
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Idealism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. Undermined is more like it, in my estimate.
Humiliation implies that it wasn't as malicious as it truly was. The "no partner for peace" meme was eaten up by Israeli media and even some western outlets bought the spin.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. OK, "undermined" as well.
In the end it was all still about the old game of stalling for time while creating "facts on the ground".
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Idealism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Chomsky has used that wording almost verbatim
Which I also agree with.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. I've used "humiliated"(which, to my mind, does NOT preclude malicious intent)
In this context because the Palestinians have often based their narrative on the notion of "avenging the shame". The Israeli government has used the shaming of various leaders(the way they physically boxed in Arafat, for example)to discredit those leaders, either(best case scenario)not realizing that this would produce alternate Palestinian leadership that would be less interested in negotating and more interested in revving up the war or(worst case scnenario)HOPING that would happen so they'd have an excuse to keep building settlements and taking more and more Palestinian land.

I accept your wording as well, but thought I should explain my reason for the wording I used.
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Idealism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. I also don't think "humiliate" precludes malicious intent
but the degree of malice is far greater in reality, thus "undermine" is my preferred choice. I agree with your assertions about boxing Arafat in and blaming him for the failures of all involved in the peace process, although Arafat himself is not blameless. The Israeli PR blitz was to humiliate him personally, and undermine the Palestinian political peace process, definitely.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Fair enough. I don't disagree with any of that.
n/t.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
2. PA questions Olmert's earlier peace offer
RAMALLAH, March 28 (Xinhua) -- A Palestinian negotiator on Saturday questioned Israeli outgoing premier Ehud Olmert's remarks that he made a generous peace offer to the Palestinians.

"Olmert's statements are part of Israel's lasting attempt to put the blame on the Palestinians in everything," said Saeb Erekat, the negotiator.

On Thursday, Olmert said he proposed to return 93 percent of West Bank to the Palestinians and to handle the Jerusalem question under an international framework as his "final offer." He added that the Palestinians did not respond to the offer that he made before Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas in September 2008.

Meanwhile, Erekat revealed that Palestinian and Israeli teams were supposed to head for Washington in early January 2009 to discuss with the former American administration the results of all bilateral talks between Abbas and Olmert.

"Instead, the Israeli government decided a comprehensive offensive against Gaza Strip on December 27th," Erekat added.

<snip>

"The negotiations were serious and in-depth, but the Israeli side did not offer any official documents," Erekat said. The PA blames the construction of settlements in West Bank as the main reason for foiling any progress in the talks.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-03/28/content_11090666.htm
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Yeah, I've read that the Syrian negotiations were making progress until the Gaza war too.
Turkish press I think it was, the Turks were somewhat annoyed about it.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Do you think an agreement reached would have been valid?
Do you think it would have been possible to reach any kind of agreement with Abbas in light of the fact that Hamas did not consider him to be a legitimate representative of the Palestinian people?

If Israel had in fact made a concrete proposal on paper, was Abbas (and his team) in a position to respond to it officially?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. No idea n/t
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
6. Palestinians deserve and demand all of the land taken in 1967
Not a single Jewish settlement should remain in the West Bank. Israel should also return the Golan to Syria and the Shebaa Farms to Lebanon.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
7. What a crock that 'offer' was!
I read the rest of the article and found this...

'The offer involved a future border between a possible Palestinian state to Israel, involving the eviction of the more than 60,000 settlers living beyond the security barrier in the West Bank – the proposed new border between the two entities. '

Generous offer? In who's alternate universe is that considered generous? Oh yeah. That'd be the alternate universe of the man responsible for OCL and who then turns around and whines that he wants peace...
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. It did reportedly include a land swap
The outgoing premier offered to swap "6.5 percent of West Bank land for 5.8 percent territory in Israel" as part of an Israeli-Palestinian peace agreement, Erekat said.

On top of that, Olmert suggested adding a corridor representing the difference, or 0.7 percent of these territories, to link the south of the West Bank with the Gaza Strip, Erekat said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090328/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictisraelpalestinian_20090328201631

One wonders why the details of this offer are being revealed at this particular point in time.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. And how does that make it a *generous offer*?
It doesn't....
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Sadly it does not appear that a better offer is on the immediate horizon
Israel needs to do something about its electoral system. How is it that Kadima can win the most seats and end up not in power? Makes no sense to me.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. I agree, but that doesn't mean that a shoddy offer should be portrayed as 'generous'...
Which is what Olmert was spruiking it as, with his 'roll right up and sign on the dotted line! This offer is so good it can't last past tomorrow!' sort of stuff. It reminds me of Persian rug ads here (don't know if you have them over there)....

Israel does need to reform its electoral system. Currently it enables minor parties to have way too much power. It'd make much more sense for theirs to be like the one here, where there are geographic electorates, and each electorate elects one member of Parliament. And then whichever party has the majority in Parliament has their leader become the PM. While minor parties can gain seats, there's never been the situation at least that I know of where one party wins the majority of seats but doesn't end up forming government. We do have a coalition made up of the Liberal Party and the National Party (both RW parties), but that coalition's a long-standing one and not one made from convenience at the drop of a hat. And I don't get the Israeli Labor party joining a coalition with Netanyahu. I know they're the ideological cousins of the Labor party here and there's no way our Labor party would ever join a coalition with the opposition parties...
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #15
21. He does seem to be trying to remake his image
He's made some pretty surprisingly strong (and in some cases, out of character) statements over the many months of his lame-duck reign. One motivation for this, in my view, is to redirect focus away from the many scandals of his administration.

In any case, I do wish that these negotiations could have continued. Even if the offer wasn't particularly generous, it could have served as an opening offer from Israel to which the Palestinians could have presented a counter-proposal and then worked from there to find common ground and make mutual compromises.

My hope was that with Obama as President of the US and with Livni winning the Israeli elections we might see something like that develop and finally witness a real and lasting peace agreement.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Land swap = Jacob swapping Esau a pottage of lentis for Esau’s birthright.
As most of you already know, the real 'Bible' doesn't have chapters and verses in it, but the numbering scheme works well in pointing out significant biblical passages to people that take the mythology seriously, or for those that don't adhere to Lenin's dictum to keep religion a private affair.

Just as you have the ultra-zionists and their Xtian dominionist allies point to the Bible as justification for settlement expansion, keeping the whole of Jerusalem, and even ethnically cleanse the 'Greater' Israel from all non-Jews, there are those on the other side of I/P conflict that point to other biblical passages to illustrate their historical grievances at their oppressors.

The Book of Genesis shows the I/P conflict seminal event in which a momma's boy, Jacob, used subterfuge and cunning to cheat his older brother Esau of his rightful birthright and inheritance.

Genesis 25 (King James Version)

27 And the boys grew: and Esau was a cunning hunter, a man of the field; and Jacob was a plain man, dwelling in tents.
28 And Isaac loved Esau, because he did eat of his venison: but Rebekah loved Jacob.
29 And Jacob sod pottage: and Esau came from the field, and he was faint:
30 And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.
31 And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy birthright.
32 And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me?
33 And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob.
34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2025&version=9

Genesis 27

1 And it came to pass, that when Isaac was old, and his eyes were dim, so that he could not see, he called Esau his eldest son, and said unto him, My son: and he said unto him, Behold, here am I.
2 And he said, Behold now, I am old, I know not the day of my death:
3 Now therefore take, I pray thee, thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field, and take me some venison;
4 And make me savoury meat, such as I love, and bring it to me, that I may eat; that my soul may bless thee before I die.
5 And Rebekah heard when Isaac spake to Esau his son. And Esau went to the field to hunt for venison, and to bring it.
6 And Rebekah spake unto Jacob her son, saying, Behold, I heard thy father speak unto Esau thy brother, saying,
7 Bring me venison, and make me savoury meat, that I may eat, and bless thee before the LORD before my death.
8 Now therefore, my son, obey my voice according to that which I command thee.
9 Go now to the flock, and fetch me from thence two good kids of the goats; and I will make them savoury meat for thy father, such as he loveth:
10 And thou shalt bring it to thy father, that he may eat, and that he may bless thee before his death.
11 And Jacob said to Rebekah his mother, Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy man, and I am a smooth man:
12 My father peradventure will feel me, and I shall seem to him as a deceiver; and I shall bring a curse upon me, and not a blessing.
13 And his mother said unto him, Upon me be thy curse, my son: only obey my voice, and go fetch me them.
14 And he went, and fetched, and brought them to his mother: and his mother made savoury meat, such as his father loved.
15 And Rebekah took goodly raiment of her eldest son Esau, which were with her in the house, and put them upon Jacob her younger son:
16 And she put the skins of the kids of the goats upon his hands, and upon the smooth of his neck:
17 And she gave the savoury meat and the bread, which she had prepared, into the hand of her son Jacob.
18 And he came unto his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I; who art thou, my son?
19 And Jacob said unto his father, I am Esau thy first born; I have done according as thou badest me: arise, I pray thee, sit and eat of my venison, that thy soul may bless me.
20 And Isaac said unto his son, How is it that thou hast found it so quickly, my son? And he said, Because the LORD thy God brought it to me.
21 And Isaac said unto Jacob, Come near, I pray thee, that I may feel thee, my son, whether thou be my very son Esau or not.
22 And Jacob went near unto Isaac his father; and he felt him, and said, The voice is Jacob's voice, but the hands are the hands of Esau.
23 And he discerned him not, because his hands were hairy, as his brother Esau's hands: so he blessed him.
24 And he said, Art thou my very son Esau? And he said, I am.
25 And he said, Bring it near to me, and I will eat of my son's venison, that my soul may bless thee. And he brought it near to him, and he did eat: and he brought him wine and he drank.
26 And his father Isaac said unto him, Come near now, and kiss me, my son.
27 And he came near, and kissed him: and he smelled the smell of his raiment, and blessed him, and said, See, the smell of my son is as the smell of a field which the LORD hath blessed:
28 Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine:
29 Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee: cursed be every one that curseth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee.
30 And it came to pass, as soon as Isaac had made an end of blessing Jacob, and Jacob was yet scarce gone out from the presence of Isaac his father, that Esau his brother came in from his hunting.
31 And he also had made savoury meat, and brought it unto his father, and said unto his father, Let my father arise, and eat of his son's venison, that thy soul may bless me.
32 And Isaac his father said unto him, Who art thou? And he said, I am thy son, thy firstborn Esau.
33 And Isaac trembled very exceedingly, and said, Who? where is he that hath taken venison, and brought it me, and I have eaten of all before thou camest, and have blessed him? yea, and he shall be blessed.
34 And when Esau heard the words of his father, he cried with a great and exceeding bitter cry, and said unto his father, Bless me, even me also, O my father.
35 And he said, Thy brother came with subtilty, and hath taken away thy blessing.


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=27&version=9


Any Israeli proposal for a land 'swap' smacks of another of Jacob's schemes to put one over his brother Esau.

If there is to be a two-state solution, it can only work if Israel withdraws from every inch of land taken in 1967. I don't think the two-state solution is feasible, and perhaps it hasn't been in decades, but it served a useful purpose for those intend on grabbing additional Palestinian land and water sources.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #8
37. My guess is, so that Olmert can make himself look better for posterity
by releasing details of a "proposal" that he was never at all likely to actually have to implement.

BTW...is it just me, or is it not weird that Olmert resigned LAST SUMMER, yet he's still in the job? Most places, you resign, you quit right then.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
12. There are some "detail" items not mentioned
such as water rights, you know little stuff like that
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The Second Stone Donating Member (603 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
13. 100 percent
or no more US support for Israel.
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Get real n/t
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. And why do you think Israel has any right to any part of the West Bank? n/t
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 06:20 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. I don't think it's about "right"- clearly the Israelis don't have a right
but it is about a fair agreement, and if that involves land swaps, that's up to the parties.
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rockymountaindem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #16
25. I meant that the US is not going to stop supporting Israel over 7% n/t
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 06:48 AM
Response to Original message
19. Wow. Out of touch with reality. Did Olmert honestly think the PA could sign anything
with Palestinians under total siege in Gaza?

That is really quite revealing about Israeli strategy and expectations.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Do you think an agreement can be reached without a Fatah/Hamas unity gov't?
Or is the formation of such a coalition a prerequisite for negotiations?

If (by some miracle) an agreement had been reached between Barak and Arafat in 2000, would it have been valid even though Hamas was not involved in the negotiation process?
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Do YOU think an agreement can be made with only Abbas?
Edited on Sun Mar-29-09 07:26 AM by ProgressiveMuslim
That's insanity. Firstly, his term has expired! Legally, he has no right to negotiate on behalf of the Palestinians.

As for Barak/Arafat in 2000.... if Arafat and Barak reached a settlement that was judged fair, then it may have been valid. Had Arafat signed an agreement that did not include the apirations of Palestinians, who knows?

The real question, Oberliner, is: Is Israel truly interested in reaching a permanent settlement with the people of Palestine? If so, Israel won't waste time negotiating with a perceived quisling, and then try to insist "legally" that the agreement be followed. For a truly durable peace agreement, don't you think Hamas MUST be included?

If Israel is truly interested in a durable peace, why are they wasting time like this?

One could conclude that the gov'ts of Israel are not actually interested in a long-term settlement if it requires concessions.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Hamas has always said that the PLO was the entity authorized to negotiate with Israel
This may have very recently changed with the calls from Hamas to rethink what the PLO is and ought to be. Even after the legislative elections where Hamas won the majority of seats, their leaders still made it clear that this was the case and would not change as a result of those elections.

You mention that Abbas's term has legally expired, but that is his term as Palestinian President, not as Executive Chairman of the PLO.

If you do not feel that Abbas is authorized to negotiate on behalf of the Palestinians, then who is?

As to your other question, I do believe that Israel is interested in reaching a permanent settlement. I honestly do not think that Israel could possibly say that they will not negotiate with Abbas. Can you imagine the reaction if the Israeli government said, we refuse to speak to Abbas because he is a perceived quisling? I do not think that would go over very well among Palestinians or the international community generally (the US and EU in particular would not respond favorably to a move like that).
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. I think that as long as Israel continues to "divide and conquer" and
effectively separate the WB and Gaza, no long term agreement can be reached.

Do you want an agreement if only a small percentage of Palestinians support it?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
28. So does this mean there will be no more offers?
It's sort of like al Qaeda second in commands. How many "final offers" are there? Ten? Twenty?
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Sadly I don't imagine too many coming from Bibi's government
Where the hell are we going to be a year from now?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Well, yeah, but I'm talking about the dishonest language.
It is not the "final offer", it's just another negotiating position being presented as one. You can't think straight in you use words dishonestly. All that really happened here is that Olmert discussed a position about a solution, and it was not received with enthusiasm. But instead we get a soap-opera.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Seems like we've had a lot of "final offers" with the Shalit situation as well
From both sides I believe.

That appears also to be going nowhere.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-29-09 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. I agree it's going nowhere.
And I am sorry for Mr Shalit and his friends and relations on that account.

My impression of the negotiations was that Olmert was "erratic". I have seen indications of disagreement within Hamas about it, but Olmert was wanting to use it as a political football and or legacy-for-Olmert dog-an-pony show. Frankly. sitting here in the USA, it all looks pretty weird.
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