Juan Cole: Lieberman and Wiping Countries off the face of the Map

[laststeamtrain]

Thursday, April 02, 2009
Lieberman and Wiping Countries off the face of the Map

Avigdor Lieberman, the Moldovan night club bouncer, is now foreign minister of Israel. The world has had a lot of fun laughing at the pronouncements of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who stands falsely accused of threatening to wipe Israel off the face of the map. But Ahmadinejad has protested that it would be wrong to kill large numbers of civilians.

In contrast, Lieberman has threatened to wipe at least two countries, Egypt and Palestine, off the map. Monstrously, he suggested bombing the Aswan Dam, which would have the effect of murdering all 80 million Egyptians and sweeping them into the Mediterranean in a vast continental African tsunami.

Lieberman promptly announced on assuming office that the Mideast peace process is dead. Well, at least we have an outbreak of frankness.

<snip>

The The Electronic Intifada lists "Some of Avigdor Lieberman's infamous statements":

# In 1998, Lieberman called for the flooding of Egypt by bombing the Aswan Dam in retaliation for Egyptian support for Yasser Arafat.

# In 2001, as Minister of National Infrastructure, Lieberman proposed that the West Bank be divided into four cantons, with no central Palestinian government and no possibility for Palestinians to travel between the cantons.

<more>

http://www.juancole.com/2009/04/lieberman-and-wiping-countries-off-face.html

[cali]

1. I wish commentators wouldn't use hyperbole. And that goes for Cole.

He objects that people characterize Ahmadinejad or the Supreme Council in that breathless way- and I agree. No doubt Lieberman is what he says he is; a middle european strong man in the mold of Milocevik, but Cole's tortured logic in defending Ahmadinejad is getting a wee tiresome. Ahmadinejad is no better than Lieberman. He simply doesn't have the weaponery that Lieberman has. Furthermore, EI doesn't provide quotes or sources for most of the things that they say Lieberman has trumpeted. Not saying he hasn't, but for someone who parses Ahmadinejad's statements, in order to defend him, one would think that Cole would be a bit more diescerning. I recognize that to quite a few here, Cole is infallible, but he's appearing more and more disingenous to me- even though I've long respected his scholarship.

[Larkspur]

2. What degrees in Middle East studies do you hold?

[cali]

3. uh, what the fuck kind of silly response is that?

one doesn't need to hold a degree in ME studies to have an opinion here. get a grip.

[Malikshah]

25. True--but to write off someone who has a tremendous amount of expertise

as a commentator speaks more to a person's inability to distinguish sophistry from cogent analysis than to the expert's purported grandstanding.

[cali]

31. except I didn't do anything of the sort. Not being able to read for comprehension

speaks volumes about a person's mental acuity. Even worse, of course, is the possibility that said person would be twisting the words of another for their own purposes.

[Malikshah]

32. Subject line is evidence. Denial just simply underscores my point.

"I wish commentators wouldn't use hyperbole. And that goes for Cole."

[cali]

33. that's quite simply, delusional.

that's not in any way dismissing Cole. It's noting that he engaged in hyperbole. And that's evident in the piece. And you didn't make a valid point. Ergo, nothing can possibly underscore it.

pathetic.

[Malikshah]

35. An interesting interpretation-- providing an argument and supplying evidence

Not at all hyperbolic. The response thus far with "pathetic" and the other less decorous prose simply lends credence to my earlier claim that
the original post appears to stem from someone who cannot apply reasoning to the discussion.

Cole was correct in his assessment. Unfortunately, no evidence has been provided to show that he did not. Simply aspersions mixed with somewhat rude attacks on myself. Nothing major (either in the argument you've provided or the attacks on myself)--just interesting to note.

[LeftishBrit]

5. I doubt that anyone here has a degree in Middle East studies

But that doesn't mean that we can't have our own views. Degrees don't give you a monopoly on the Truth (and I'm speaking here as a university teacher, though not in this field).

If it comes to that, Daniel Pipes has a Ph.D. in history and has written a dozen books, but that doesn't mean that he's right!

[Malikshah]

24. Uh....I do. It's quite common, actually.

As for Juan-- he's a historian with a strong track record. He is much more than a Commentator....

[oberliner]

8. Doesn't Daniel Pipes have a degree in Middle East studies? nt

[LeftishBrit]

4. I agree with you

Cole often has interesting things to say; but he does seem to have something of an axe to grind where Ahmadinejad is concerned.

Neither Ahmadinejad nor Lieberman is an appetizing individual.

[On the Road]

6. I Have Read Cole's 'Parsing' of Ahmadinejad's Words

and he seems to make a reasonable argument that "erasing from the page of history" is a political statement and does not refer to killing all the inhabitants. Whatever the arguments, I haven't seen any counter to that analysis other than reassertions.

Lieberman, on the other hand, seems to have been quite specific and concrete. Proposing to destroy the Aswan dam is an act of mass murder.

[oberliner]

7. Cole is lying here about Lieberman's remarks

Or, to be more accurate, he is repeating lies from the Electronic Intifada and passing them off as truth.

Lieberman did not "call for the flooding of Egypt by bombing the Aswan Dam in retaliation for Egyptian support for Yasser Arafat."

That is just an out and out falsehood.

Here are the actual remarks that were twisted into the above:

"Mubarak continues to act against us and to travel for consultations with Saddam Hussein. If he carries out his threat and puts forces into the Sinai, it would be an example of a (crossing) of the red line to which we would have to respond strongly, including by bombing the Aswan Dam."

Source: Reuters
http://uk.reuters.com/article/UKNews1/idUKTRE52U3DH20090401?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0

For a guy who is a stickler for not taking things out of context, Cole sure did not seem to have a problem with the way the quote was lifted and manipulated by Electronic Intifada - or he just didn't both to find the original himself, which is odd considering how much time and effort he put in to examining that quote from the Iranian president.

[On the Road]

9. How is That a Falsehood?

He recommended responding to a movement of Egyptian troops within their own territory by launching a mass attack on Egyptian civilians.

[LeftishBrit]

11. In pretty much the same sense...

as it's a falsehood to say that Ahmadinejad threatened to 'wipe Israel off the map' if he really said that 'the Zionist regime should vanish from the pages of time'.

In both cases, I think the basic attitude is the same whichever exact phrase was used; but one version is more directly threatening than the other.

If Cole is fussy about the way that words are used in one case, then he should be similarly fussy in the other. Also, he should go directly to the source - not quote from a document which is (a) known to be negative toward Israel; (b) doesn't even pretend to quote the exact words used, but just to give the gist.

In fact, I consider both Ahmadinejad and Lieberman to be fascists; but nevertheless, if someone, especially someone regarded as a scholar, quotes either of them, he should make the effort to be exact.

[On the Road]

14. Could Be --

I haven't seen Lieberman's original words. But is it worth noting that there seem to have been a number of such remarks.

[oberliner]

17. Cole's version says the threat was made in response to Egypt supporting Arafat

The quote says the threat was made in response to a potential movement of Egyptian troops in coordination with Saddam Hussein.

[On the Road]

34. I Understand That

It would still be an act of mass murder made in response to Egyptian troop movements within their own territory.

Ahmadinejad's threat was also made in the context of military actions -- in this case, Israel's actual military occcupation of non-Israeli lands.

I can't see how this is exculpatory -- if it was an actualy proposal, it seems to make it worse.

[azurnoir]

10. What would be the result of bombing the Aswan dam? n/t

[oberliner]

16. The difference is the context

Was the threat made in the context of Egypt joining with Iraq on a potential attack on Israel or in the context of Egypt being supportive of Arafat?

I assert that it is the former (based on the quote cited), and I see no evidence of the latter - if you can find evidence of the former I would greatly appreciate it.

[Douglas Carpenter]

18. JPost, der Speigel reported the story in the context of Egyptian support for Arafat, also salon.com

first from Middle East Online:

Lieberman called for all Palestinian prisoners, now more than ten thousand, held by the Israeli occupation authorities to be drowned in the Dead Sea and offered to provide the buses, Ha'aretz reported on July 11, 2002.

In 2002, Lieberman declared, “I would not hesitate to send the Israeli army into all of Area A for 48 hours. Destroy the foundation of all the authority's military infrastructure ... not leave one stone on another. Destroy everything.” He also suggested to the Israeli cabinet that the air force systematically bomb all the commercial centers, gas stations and banks in the occupied territories (The Independent, March 7, 2002).

In 1998 he called for the bombing of Egypt's Aswan Dam in retaliation for Cairo's support for the late Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat.

http://www.middle-east-online.com/English/?id=18046

Lieberman has repeatedly threatened Egypt from the Knesset podium. Last October, he said that if Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak did not want to pay an official visit to Israel, he could "go to hell," while a decade ago he called for the flooding of Egypt by bombing the Aswan Dam in retaliation for Egyptian support for Yasser Arafat.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1237727508393

When then Prime Minister Ariel Sharon proposed releasing 350 Palestinian prisoners in 2003, Lieberman uttered one of his notorious sentences: "It would be better to drown these prisoners in the Dead Sea."

His words have the force of cluster bombs. He spares no one. He once proposed executing Arab members of the Knesset with ties to Hamas to Hezbollah as "Nazi collaborators." Later he suggested that Israel should proceed in the Gaza Strip the way Russia did in Chechnya -- without consideration for losses or civilians. This remark gained him a reputation as a virulent racist.

If Lieberman had his way, perhaps Tehran would have been obliterated, as a punishment for Iran's refusal to shut down its nuclear program. Years ago he threatened Egypt -- Israel's key ally in the Arab world -- with the bombardment of the Aswan Dam unless the regime withdrew support for then-PLO leader Yasser Arafat.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,615392,00.html

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/03/26/lieberman/

also the notoriously right-wing Israel National News and Israel Insider Reported the same:

Lieberman has called for Israel to bomb the Aswan Dam because Egypt supported the late Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) Chairman Yasser Arafat's terrorism against Israel. Last year, Lieberman criticized Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak for refusing to visit Israel. In the meeting, the Egyptian ambassador said that there were three things that were sacred to Egyptians – the Pyramids, the Aswan Dam, and Mubarak – and Lieberman had insulted two of them.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/162469

http://www.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/1906.htm

[oberliner]

20. And I can point you to a myriad of sources claiming that Ahmadinejad said "wipe Israel off the map"

Including the state-run Iranian news agency.

Tehran, Oct 26 - Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Wednesday called for Israel to be "wiped off the map".

http://web.archive.org/web/20070927213903/http://www.iribnews.ir/Full_en.asp?news_id=200247

None of the citations that you listed contain any actual quote from Lieberman regarding the Aswat Dam and Arafat.

I think someone misrepresented the 2001 quote and other sources repeated the inaccurate information.

This would be similar to what Juan Cole claims happened with the "wipe of the map" quote.

There is another JPost article from today with this citation:

In the past, he had harshly criticized Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak for refusing to visit Israel, and once said Israel could attack the Aswan Dam in case of a future war with Egypt.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1238562897763&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

And also from Israel National News:

In the past Lieberman has threatened that Israel could bomb the Aswan Dam if Egypt joins a war against Israel.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/130537

Here again is the quote from Reuters: 2001 - "Mubarak continues to act against us and to travel for consultations with Saddam Hussein. If he carries out his threat and puts forces into the Sinai, it would be an example of a (crossing) of the red line to which we would have to respond strongly, including by bombing the Aswan Dam."

If there is some different quote from 1999 regarding a similar threat to blow up the dam but in response only to Egypt supporting Arafat I have not found it. One would think that one of the sites claiming this would include a link to the quote or at least some reference to what the original source was.

[Douglas Carpenter]

22. but Mahmoud Ahmadinejad NEVER threatened to attack Israel

he went off on a religious/political apocalyptic tirade similar to what dominates most fundamentalist religious escotological thinking regarding the Middle East. Whether Christian fundamentlist, Islamic fundamentlist or Jewish fundamentalist these belief systems tend to predict massive destruction and upheavel of one kind or another brought about in the end of times by the direct intervention of the almighty.

Lieberman DID directly threaten to bomb the Aswan Dam with very real and a very secular threat by their own hands, not the outside intervention of God.

[oberliner]

23. Avigdor Lieberman is a repulsive RW tool

I have no intention of defending any of his hateful comments.

My one and only point is in regard to a frustration that I have with sources who manipulate quotes from Israeli leaders in order to make them seem worse (or different) than they actually are.

I specifically chastise Cole on this account because he has been so assiduous in his desire to correct what he believed to be the inaccuracy of the Ahmadinejad quote.

There are numerous websites that purport to list a variety of quotes from Israeli leaders over the years. In more than a few cases those quotes are either fabrications or severely altered or selectively edited or taken out of some significant context.

The internet allows for so much information to be spread so quickly and often times people believe something just because they have seen it in many different places and do not bother to try to figure out what the original source material was and whether or not it may be flawed.

That, it seemed to me, was one of the lessons of Cole's examination of the "wiped off the map" quote. Thus, I would hope that he would apply that same rigor towards quotes from even those as loathsome as Avigdor Lieberman.

It's quite possible that there is some quote from 1999 that does link the statement to Arafat, and if it exists, I would like to see it and I will take back all of my accusations and insinuations.

I know we have some very good researchers at DU who have been able to track down original sources online in the past, and I think it's as good an idea to set the record straight here with Lieberman as with Ahmadinejad or any other widely quoted figure.

[azurnoir]

29. Another source

In the past Lieberman has called for Israel to bomb the Aswan Dam because Egypt supported the late Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) Chairman Yasser Arafat's terrorism against Israel.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/162469

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Douglas Carpenter]

13. oh for crying out loud!! Show some intellectual HONESTY for ONCE!!

Lieberman DID directly threaten to bomb the Aswan Dam - the consequences of which are obvious!

L

[oberliner]

15. The quote is bad enough without the manipulation

I am no fan of Lieberman by any stretch of the imagination, but it does irritate me when quotes are taken out of context and coupled with inaccurate information for manipulative purposes as Electronic Intifada and Juan Cole have done here.

There is a significant difference between Lieberman saying he would bomb the Aswan Dam if Egypt coordinates with Iraq for a potential attack on Israel (including moving troops info an offensive position) and Lieberman saying that he would bomb the Aswan Dam in retaliation for Egypt's support of Arafat.

The only quote that I have found from Lieberman regarding the Aswan Dam is the one I cited in reference to Saddam Hussein. If there is a different quote where he made the threat in connection to Arafat I would be interested in seeing it. I don't know where that claim originated, but I have seen it in various places - with no quote sourced.

[shaayecanaan]

19. Physician, heal thyself...

There is a significant difference between Lieberman saying he would bomb the Aswan Dam if Egypt coordinates with Iraq for a potential attack on Israel (including moving troops info an offensive position) and Lieberman saying that he would bomb the Aswan Dam in retaliation for Egypt's support of Arafat.

Thats spinning it a bit far. The Sinai is sovereign Egyptian territory, and Egypt is entitled to put as many troops there as it likes. Given the anxious mood of 2001 it was probably justifiable from Egypt's point of view.

Of course, Israel justifies its attack in 1967 on Egypt stationing troops on the border. Funny how this whole pre-emption thing only applies to Arabs. Would it be legitimate to attack Israel if it stationed troops on its own border?

The equivalent of Liberman's threat would be Syria threatening to dose the Jordan river with cesium in response to Israel stationing troops in the Northern district, in effect dooming Israelis to either poisoning or dying of thirst.

To be perfectly honest, I doubt you would be equivocating as earnestly if that indeed were the scenario. But then again that seems to be your tendency - to try and sanitise unpleasant aspects of Israeli behaviour while hamming up similar misconduct on the Arab side.

[oberliner]

21. Cole railed about the difference between "wipe off the map" and "vanish from the page of time"

He seemed to be very concerned about the fact that the quote was spread around without being entirely accurate. He also seemed to go out of his way to explain just how significantly different those two phrases are and accused those who claimed that the Iranian president said he wanted to wipe Israel off the map of lying.

With the attention he played to setting the record straight on that quote, I would think he would be just as concerned with making sure that quotes from Lieberman accurately reflects what he said.

If Cole is claiming that Lieberman said he would bomb the dam because Egypt supported Arafat when in fact Lieberman said he would bomb the dam if Egypt coordinated with Iraq a potential attack against Israel, then he is being as untruthful (or as lazy) as those he accuses of spreading an inaccurate version of the words of the Iranian president.

As to your last comment, I would state that I wholeheartedly disagree with Lieberman's quote in either case and I do not support him in the slightest degree. There is nothing here that I have any desire to sanitize whatsoever.

[Douglas Carpenter]

27. please provide an original source that says Lieberman was referring to Egypt

coordinating an attack against Israel with Iraq.

Egypt and Israel have as I am sure you know, an established peace treaty while relationship between Iraq and Egypt during that time period 1998 to 2002 would have been extremely cold.

It is patently absurd to the point of insanity to suggest any far out possibility that Egypt was even remotely considering coordinating an attack against Israel during that time frame. If that is what Lieberman was talking about - than he is even more delusional than I could imagine.

Mubarak spoke out sharply against the "talk of war" in the Israeli election campaign, specifically citing the threats by Sharon's ally, Avigdor Lieberman, to "bomb the Aswan dam" if the region were to descend into war. "Who is talking about war? We aren't; it's not in our interest. We are interested in stability, not war," the Egyptian president said.

Haaretz Archives Published date -30/01/2001

[oberliner]

30. That is what the Reuters quote was

Also the citation you've provided seems to support that context.

[Douglas Carpenter]

28. that is even more bat-shit crazy - if Lieberman thinks Egypt was coordinating an attack with Iraq

against Israel. That is way beyond plausibility. To suggest that was a conceivable possibility would be stark raving insane. The Egyptian military is so closely tied to the U.S. Central Command and the Egyptian government is so closely linked to the U.S. government that it would take a completely insane lunatic to cook up a scenario that bazaar.

No, it does not change the picture one bit - either way there is now a racist and paranoid madman serving as Israeli Foreign Minister who once publicly threatened to bomb the Aswan Dam which could have cost the lives of millions of Egyptian people - a country closely allied with the United States and at peace with Israel.

Mubarak spoke out sharply against the "talk of war" in the Israeli election campaign, specifically citing the threats by Sharon's ally, Avigdor Lieberman, to "bomb the Aswan dam" if the region were to descend into war. "Who is talking about war? We aren't; it's not in our interest. We are interested in stability, not war," the Egyptian president said.

Haaretz Archives Published date -30/01/2001

[Igel]

26. The rebuttal comes in two forms.

First, there are occasions in which students and Basij activists cite the famous Persian words "mistranslated" as "wipe off the face of the earth" with their own English translation--"wipe off the face of the earth".

Second, shortly after the "vanish from the pages of time" (or whatever) words were spoken, with the copious commentary that undoubtedly they meant the governmental structure of Israel would eventually crumble of its own accord, a military parade was held. Participating in the military parade were some Shahab-3 missiles on their launchers. Draped over one of them was a very nice banner. The banner had the remarkably peaceful Persian words written on it. It was clear to (a) the planners and (b) the viewers what those words meant and how they were related to the missile draped with those words.

I don't believe that the words refer to the slaughter of all the inhabitants, simply because that's seldom contemplated. What's contemplated is fighting them until they are humbled and stop resisting, and then either making sure that they are properly pacified or deported. Presumably the "fighting until they are humbled" bit would involve killing a few Jewish Israelis. But a purely peaceful, laissez-faire parsing of the words does a disservice to the real-world context in which they are uttered and displayed by Khamenei-approved agents.