Fury over Blunkett's warning to Muslims

[drdon326]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/10/31/nimam31.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/10/31/ixnewstop.html

David Blunkett provoked renewed indignation from the Muslim community last night when he warned that extremist imams were increasing the terrorism threat by preying upon impressionable youngsters.

"We have to understand what is happening in a world where young men and women can be enjoined by their religious leaders to take their own lives and others as suicide bombers," he said.

The Home Secretary said the involvement of two British Muslims in a suicide attack in Israel this year demonstrated that "we are not completely untouched".

Apart from the two in Israel, in recent years Britain has supplied Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh, who masterminded the kidnap and murder of Daniel Pearl, an American journalist, in Pakistan. Originally from east London, he attended a British public school before dropping out of the LSE.

Richard Reid, born in London, tried to carry out a suicide attack on a Paris to Miami flight in December 2001 but was overpowered by passengers. There are seven British Muslims held by the Americans in Guantanamo Bay after being captured in Afghanistan.

...................................................................

let me guess.....he's paranoid.

[ForestsBeatBushes]

1. The fury appears misdirected.

From the article in queston:

"...Inayat Bunglawala, spokesman for the Muslim Council, said: "We are quite dismayed to see him, yet again, singling out the British Muslim community for denigration. His remarks about Muslim youth, while they are sure to gain him plaudits amongst the far Right, are off the mark and show him to be poorly briefed..."

What is this crap with anytime something is pointed out as in any way negative about any portion of the Muslim community that both the British and the USA summarily dismiss it as 'far Right' or 'right wing'?

[Violet_Crumble]

2. Are you saying criticising Muslims won't gain plaudits from the Far Right?

Maybe the Far Right that exists for you is a warm and fuzzy one, but I thought the Far Right thrived on any criticism of any group different to them. Somehow I doubt the US dismisses criticism as right wing, seeing as how the Bush government is very right wing...


Violet...

[ForestsBeatBushes]

6. No, Violet.

The Far Right is DEFINITELY not a 'warm and fuzzy one' ... in fact, it leads to fascism, and in one case last century, to the 'Final Solution of the Jewish Problem'.

[Violet_Crumble]

8. The Far Right didn't exist back then...

So if you weren't saying that the far right doesn't embrace criticism of anyone different than them, what were you trying to say?

Violet...

[rini]

3. A few months ago I saw a program on CBS

about radical Islamic militants in England (London to be specific). In the leader's own words they were trying to start a jihad from Europe. The leader was born in England, as was his wife. Their goal was to put Europe under "Sharria" I apologize if the spelling is off. IMO, David Blunkett is sounding "the alarm in the night" and must be listened to.

[Darranar]

4. Let me see if I can explain to you my thoughts here, rini...

without you replying with another thinly-veiled personal attack about me being "naive" or a "third child."

Those radicals are certainly wrong. Their means are immoral and their goal is immoral. But the THREAT of them is exxagerated.

Do you really think it is possible for a bunch of radical fundamentalists to take over a continent? Has Pat Buchanan yet succeeded at becoming president? Has David Duke yet managed to kill millions of Jews?

The only possible comparable example is George Bush's election, and even he is far from bneing as radical as some of these people (and he cheated.)

When Muslims around the world start uniting in favor of these people, I'll start worrying. But I doubt it will ever happen.

[bluesoul]

5. Exagerating

I think some people have the nasty habit of intentionally exaggerating things even when the sheer reality of that happening is the same to null. But then that constant "fear of them" is an old thing dating back to Mccarthy and even way back before him. Nothing new..

[ForestsBeatBushes]

9. Regarding the 'nasty habit of intentionally exaggerating':

FYI, the fear of the other goes back to the beginning of time; but, that is not what is at hand here on this thread.

[drdon326]

12. History...

has a nasty habit of repeating itself.

Sorry, Darannar....change a few words and we heard the same
speeches in the 1930's.


NEVER AGAIN.

[ForestsBeatBushes]

7. Where have I heard that before, D?

Oh, yes, in history books when people were being told of the camps in Europe and no one listened until more than 11 million people were gone, our more than 6 million mostly gone up in smoke.

[Darranar]

10. When they start having a party....

which seems rather close to seizing power, i'll worry.

The Nazis gave hundreds of warning signs from around this stage to the eventual stage. They were all ignored.

[rini]

11. I hope you are sitting down

because I agree. I am concerned about your point in uniting radicals on a world wide basis. I would really like to get good data one way or the other.
On the other side, little Germany did a dang good job of conquest. That they eventually lost is not the point, the point is the damage they did in the interum. So perhaps we should listen to "the fire bell in the night" being caustious and alert is good, especially when there is smoke.

[Violet_Crumble]

13. One point about Germany...

It was never little. It was the dominant state in Europe....


Just curious, but I agree with Darranar about the warning signs coming from Nazi Germany. So, could you point out where the same warning signs are presently?

Violet...

[rini]

17. nazis were a great military power true

but Germany was a tiny country with a fairly small population.

Warning signs: read their textbooks, watch their TV "there have been to many posts to mention them one at a time. Read my posting on terror. Etc, etc., etc.

[Violet_Crumble]

18. Geographical size has zero to do with power...

I live in a huge country that's only a middling to small power. 19th century Britain was a tiny country with immense power. Germany was not a tiny country with a fairly small population, anyway. In Europe it was large and had a pretty large population, but of course that's not where its power came from. Germany was heavily industrialised for one and was the dominant state in Europe. That's why the French fought so hard against any concessions at all for it at the end of WWI. They didn't want to see it rise as a power again...

Who's 'they', rini? The warning signs leading up to the Holocaust were things like the stripping of citizenship from German Jews and restrictions placed on where they could and couldn't work, forcing them to wear the Star of David to identify themselves as Jews, and things like Kristtilnacht. Are you trying to say that if books contain anti-any group of people content then it's a warning sign that genocide is about to happen?

Violet...

[Darranar]

14. Being cautious and alert is always good.

[Violet_Crumble]

19. It is...

And this just may be me, but I think there's more to fear from any future rising of Fascism than from extremist Islamic groups as they exist now. I saw a thing on telly tonight about 3,000 Italian Fascists who had done the pilgramage thing to Mussolini's tomb, and while it was pointed out that the vast majority of Italians feel revulsion at anything to do with Mussolini, I think there's 3,000 too many Fascists in Italy right now...

Violet...

[Darranar]

20. Yes...

but my major fear is what Mussolini called fascism: Corporatism.

[drdon326]

21. lol

Calls to Jihad Are Said to Lure Hundreds of Militants Into Iraq

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/01/international/middleeast/01RECR.html?hp
Across Europe and the Middle East, young militant Muslim men are answering a call issued by Osama bin Laden and other extremists, and leaving home to join the fight against the American-led occupation in Iraq, according to senior counterterrorism officials based in six countries.

The intelligence officials say that since late summer they have detected a growing stream of itinerant Muslim militants headed for Iraq. They estimate that hundreds of young men from an array of countries have now arrived in Iraq by crossing the Syrian or Iranian borders.

But the officials say this influx is not necessarily evidence of coordination by Al Qaeda or other terrorist groups, since it remains unclear if the men are under the control of any one leader or what, if any, role they have had in the kind of deadly attacks that shook Baghdad on Monday. A European intelligence official called the foreign recruits "foot soldiers with limited or no training."

A senior British official, who was in Iraq in September, said most of the foreign men captured there were from the Middle East — Syria, Lebanon and Yemen — or North Africa. He described them as "young, angry men" motivated by the "anti-British, anti-American rhetoric that fills their ears every day."

-------------------------------------------------------------------

yeah.....nothing to see here.....move along.

[Violet_Crumble]

22. Hundreds of militants going to Iraq = threat of genocide?

That's a mighty large stretch there, don. It sounds like the only thing they're a threat to is the troops who are occupying Iraq. Just curious, but don't you see the possibility of the re-emergence of Fascism as something to be worried about? I know it's very hard to work diatribes against Muslims or Arabs into any discussion of Fascism, which probably does suck mightily for some folk, but for some strange reason I associate Fascism with genocide and have no doubt if it were to arise again, nothing much would have changed about it...

Violet...

[drdon326]

23. hmmmmm

"Just curious, but don't you see the possibility of the re-emergence of Fascism as something to be worried about?"

you bet.... but i'm not worried about a few neo-nazi
wanna-be's living in the past.

However i am worried about the rise of militant JIHADOFASCISM
that perverts young people to murder anyone who the consider
"INFIDELS"....and that represents WTC in NY , Busses etc in israel,
and yes Australian-visited nightclubs in Bali.


NEVER AGAIN.

[Violet_Crumble]

24. Let me get this straight...

Yr claim yr concerned about the possibility of the rise of Fascism, yet several thousand Italian fascists worshipping the tomb of Mussolini don't worry you at all, while few hundred Islamic militants heading to Iraq to fight US and British troops do? I don't get it...

There are reasons to be concerned about religious extremism, but when that concern is abused in a way that turns it into attacks and distrust of most or all people in a group or religion, that's when I start to think the person claiming to be concerned really isn't much better than a Fascist anyway...

Violet...

[drdon326]

25. So far....

those 3000 people havent killed anyone.

How many people have been killed by JIHADOFASCISM??
How come essentially every continent has a fight with
JIHADOFASCISM??

You can deny and obfuscate.....you can insinuate any
Vile Comments you wish...It just doesnt change the facts.



Never Again.

[Darranar]

26. How many have been killed by fascism?

Oh, only thirteen million+. They're no threat.

[Muddleoftheroad]

28. Threats change over time

To only focus on previous threats is to make the classic mistake that militaries make and to focus not on the next war, but the last.

[Darranar]

29. And the major threat today IS NOT...

Islamic fundamentalism.

Though violent religious fundamentalism in all its forms is deplorable and needs to be fought, what all too often happens concerning Islamic fundamentalism is exxageration and distortion and distraction.

Those are the tools used by the government to convince the people to unite behind them.

"They hate us for our freedom" so our so-called president, who is a living testament to the death of real political freedom in our country, strips away our civil liberties and throws the Bill of Rights into the trash can with the other worthless liberal principles like human rights and international law.

"We need to fight them" so we engage in the same sort of reckless warfare that caused such anti-American sentiment in the Arab world in the first place. A war is launched in Afghanistan and the blood of innocent victims is avenged with the blood of innocent victims as the people of this country, and of the world, applaud.

"Iraq has connections to the vast Islamic conspiracy of Al Qaeda" so we attack Iraq based on lies, kill thousands of innocent people, "liberate" them with a brutal occupation and chaos, and further worsen their already difficult lives, when all that was required to remove him was to convince the Shi'ites and the Kurds that we would protect their rights to a state and we would defend them if they revolted against Saddam.

How has the government managed to distract the country from these things, as well as the horrible state of our economy? By distorting and exxagerating Islamic fundamentalism.

It is not a new tactic. Arab regimes use it against Israel and Jews. The Nazis and czars used it against Jews. Paleoconservatives used it against immigrants and foreigners.

So WHAT IS the main threat today? Such greedy cabals as the ones that have taken over our country.

[ForestsBeatBushes]

30. That's a joke, right?

You're kidding, aren't you?




NEVER AGAIN.

[Darranar]

31. No, I'm not joking...

Islamic fundamentalism is a threat, but one taht can be dealt with by dealing with the main threat.

[ForestsBeatBushes]

32. The main threat being the Kabbala, oh, I mean, the cabal?

[Darranar]

33. The cabal...

of greedy individuals who rule our country, yes.

Along wit the other groups of greedy individuals who effect this nation's policies and other nations' policies. People like Ken Lay, Dick Cheney, etc.

My post had absolutely nothing to do with the Kabballah.

[sushi]

34. Great post!

Fascism - "A political philosophy, movement, or regime that is aggressively nationalistic and stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition."

Imagine a powerful country going fascist. That worries me more than
1.3 billion people ever(!) uniting.

Anyone who thinks the Muslims are all the same, fundamentalist, crazy, people to be afraid of, is, IMO, ignorant, to put it mildly.
Besides, as I pointed out to Muddle, who hasn't commented, they don't have to unite to cause damage, as we all know.

I worry about bad PEOPLE, whatever their religion. I have a mental list of these people, who are in public life, and there are many Christians on it too!

[sushi]

35. It is to be expected

that when a big power invades another country, (some of) the locals will defend it. What is so hard to understand that their fellow Muslims from neighboring countries have gone to the aid of the Iraqis? Do you expect the Iraqis who don't agree with the invasion to just sit there and do nothing? You wouldn't go help your neighbor whose house has been destroyed, and relatives killed in the process, by a big bully?

[drdon326]

36. What ??

"You wouldn't go help your neighbor whose house has been destroyed, and relatives killed in the process, by a big bully?"

that bully youre describing is the butcher of baghdad.

[Darranar]

37. Which one?

Hussein, who brutalized his own people with great passion, or Bush, who slaughtered hundreds with his air war, capture of the city, and occupation of it, and has plans to tyrranize Iraq further with a puppet "democracy?"

[ForestsBeatBushes]

40. You see,

the 'butcher of baghdad' has been in the vernacular for quite a while now and it refers to Saddam Hussein, in case you hadn't heard.

[Darranar]

41. I happen to know...

which one he was refering to. I was making a point, you see.

[hossdiddy]

42. Comparing

a man who tortured, rapes and killed (60,000 children a year I believe) hundreds of thousands with a man who liberated those people and unavoidably a couple of hundred where killed (a deliberate slaughter in your mind?)

Ahhh, and you know Bush's "plans" and motives.

Laughable.

[Darranar]

43. "Liberated"?

LOL.

Now let's examine this closely...

If Bush's motivation enter Iraq was based on WMD, logically he would have had hard evidence to support that, or he would have invaded Iran, for which there was also tons of evidence.

He apparentally didn't have hard evidence; Where are the WMD?

If Bush's motivation to enter Iraq was to liquidate a phantom connection with Al-Qeada, why didn't he do something against Saudi Arabia, which has far more connections to them? Clealrly, Saddam and Osama were not on best of terms. Baathists and the form of militant fundamentalism supported by Osama are ideologically at odds.

If Bush's motivation to enter Iraq was based on humanitarian concerns, why did the Army use cluster bombs?

His motivation was oil and political gain.

[ForestsBeatBushes]

44. His motivation was oil and political gain.

link, please

[Darranar]

45. Link?

Why don't you follow my argument instead?

[sushi]

50. You don't need a link

Of course the motivation was oil and political gain, IOW, self-interest. What else is there? Liberation of poor, oppressed people?

[sushi]

38. If by bully

you mean Saddam Hussein, he's been defeated. Why are the foreign troops still there? I expect the majority of the locals to be happy that he's gone, but now they want the coalition forces to leave too. Why haven't they?

[ForestsBeatBushes]

46. Good question!

Unfortunately, although it does seem Saddam Hussein has been defeated, it also seems he left quite a few 'true believers' who are currently taking over his cause.

The situation needs to be stabilized before foreign troops leave the people of Iraq to fend for themselves.

Like it or not, once shit has been stirred, it must be quelled; one cannot dive in and then cut and run.

[Darranar]

47. "True believers"?

I think quite a few of them are ordinary Iraqi civilians who hated Saddam and now hate the US occupation, personally...

[bluesoul]

48. BS

Those "few true believer" may not be that few judging by the daily attacks and they might just be ordinary Iraqi that didn't like Saddam but dislike the occupiers just as much if not even more. Something I am sure you will never be able to comprehend...

[sushi]

49. I'm afraid

the longer the coalition troops stay the LESS stable it gets, and the deeper the hatred. The troops themselves want to go home. I read Pakistan refuses to send troops unless it's under the UN banner, and troops from Turkey would be a VERY bad idea. It's high time to hand Iraq over to the UN. Then, like in East Timor, the UN prepares Iraq for an election.

The role of the US in Iraq should be defined. The appointed governing council wants immediate handover of sovereignty, which would be a symbol for the Iraqis that the "infidels" are not occupiers.

[sushi]

39. Btw, I read

and watch on TV a lot of reports from Iraq. People are afraid to go out of their houses. Things are NOT good there. It's easy for outsiders to say just wait, things will be fine soon.

If I were an Iraqi Sunni, who had it good under SH, I would long for my old life and hate the occupiers. If I were an Iraqi pious Shiite, I'd be happy that SH is gone, and hate the coalition, and wait, impatiently, to elect my favorite Mullah to be leader. If I were an Iraqi Kurd I would be happy that SH is gone, and now plan to fight for my very own homeland. And so on, for the Iraqi Armenians, or Chaldeans, or Assyrians, etc. Whatever they are, nobody likes foreign occupation. Do YOU? Do you wonder why their fellow Muslims go to their aid? I think the West drives the Muslims to unite! Lucky for us, the Muslims are also divided.

If there are Iraqis who love the occupation, it would be a small group, like those who lived overseas and have gone back to, hopefully, be installed as leaders, like Chalabi.

[Military Brat]

15. bush's election?

Just a pet peeve, but bush was never elected. The Supreme Court chose him. Yes, I know, someone will say blah blah blah. But it's true, and we must be as careful and precise with our language as the right wing is with theirs. It's all about getting the message across.

[Darranar]

16. Agreed...

An error on my part. Sorry.

[The Magistrate]

27. Mr. Blunkett Makes A Good Point And A Bad Point, Doctor

The good point is his denunciation of fundamentalist radical preaching and recruitment to violence, expressed as a tenet of religion. It is hard to see what anyone finds need to take exception to about this. The phenomenom certainly occurs, and is a pernicious and destructive one. Mr. Blunkett makes no blanket condemnation of Islam, or imams as a class.

The bad point is the call for preaching to be done only in English. This is rather much. The Koran, in its Arabic, is considered by many to be the actual sound of diety speaking, and so use of that tongue in its readings, and citations from it, has a liturgical quality translation cannot provide. Preachings beyond this, to persons who's native language is other than English, cannot reasonably be restricted: people are not required to assimilate, after all, even if it may be desireable from many views. That is an unwarrantable imposition on personal liberty.