German anti-semitism takes a new twist

[pscot]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,706245,00.html

Following an anti-Semitic attack in Hanover, German authorities have identified a new source of anti-Semitic hatred in Germany: young migrants from Muslim families. The ideological alliance has officials concerned....

The voices were those of children -- voices full of hate, shouted in unison and amplified by a toy megaphone. Arnds, the organizer, was shocked. He knew many of the children, most of them from Arab immigrant families in the neighborhood.....

Until now, attacks on Jews, Jewish institutions and Jewish symbols have almost always been committed by right-wing extremist groups. In the first quarter of 2010 alone, the German Interior Ministry documented 183 anti-Semitic offences committed by right-wing radicals, including graffiti, inflammatory propaganda and physical violence.

The stone-throwing incident in Hanover, however, has finally forced the authorities to take a closer look at a group of offenders that, though largely overlooked until now, is no less motivated by anti-Zionist sentiments: adolescents and young adults from an immigrant community who are influenced by Islamist ideas and are prepared to commit acts of violence.

An informal and accidental alliance has been developing for some time between neo-Nazis and some members of a group they would normally despise: Muslim immigrants. The two groups seem to share vaguely similar anti-Semitic ideologies.

[Better Today]

1. Gee, I wonder why muslims might be anti-semetic.

[oberliner]

2. Please elaborate

What do you mean by that comment?

[Better Today]

3. If you're really that out of touch, well, bliss and all.

[oberliner]

5. How does being Muslim make someone more likely to be anti-semitic?

I don't understand what you mean - can you clarify?

[Ter]

7. He means Israel treats arabs like shit

So a Muslim will be more likely to be anti-Semitic. Makes sense, no?

[oberliner]

8. What does a Jew living in Germany have to do with the way Israel treats Arabs?

I don't see how the two things are related.

[Ter]

9. I didn't say it, the other poster did, but I see where he is coming from

Most Jews side with Israel on Arab issues. So put 2 and 2 together.

[Violet_Crumble]

24. What does an article about anti-semitism in Germany have to do with the I/P conflict?

I don't see how the two things are related and why this OP is in this forum...

[oberliner]

30. Amen to that! Posts like the OP ought to be in the main forums.

I myself recently posted something here about antisemitism in a town Sweden, and while the article did reference the I/P conflict, in retrospect, I wish I had posted it in the main forums (though I am not sure it wouldn't have been moved here due to those references).

In any case, I agree with you that articles like this definitely ought to be read by the wider audience that does not necessarily take the time to check out the I/P forum.

[LeftishBrit]

14. Especially since German Jews are not Israelis, no, it doesn't make sense.

And for that matter, most German Muslims are not Arabs.

Alliances with the Far Right NEVER make sense, whether it's a Europaean Muslim accepting their antisemitism, a Europaean Jew or Hindu accepting their Islamophobia, or an anti-war campaigner thinking that Pat Buchanan or LePen can't be that bad as they're against the war too.

But too many people, especially in times of economic desperation, are too ready to accept the seemingly simple solutions, and simple scapegoats, offered by the hard-right. Who are often only too happy to 'divide and rule'.

[cali]

16. so you also understood why there was American anti-Muslim sentiment

following 9/11?

Sickening and sick.

[applegrove]

4. We had an incident in Montreal that was done by muslim kids. Pretty

upsetting.

[shaayecanaan]

6. The picture next to the article looks very similar to previous attacks against Muslims..

for example, this one from 1993:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solingen_arson_attack_of_1993

With all due respect to Der Spiegel, I think its laughable that neo-Nazi groups would reconcile with Muslims to attack Jews. If anything the opposite trend is apparent - for example, the fascist British National Party now supports Israel and its attacks on Hezbollah, and most of the post-fascist parties in Europe such as Silvio Berlusconi's party now support Israel.

The far right wing Progress Party in Norway is a fierce supporter of Israel and receives glowing endorsements in the far right wing settler press:-

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/127013

[oberliner]

10. August Kreis: "You say they're terrorists, I say they're freedom fighters"

From 2005:

SEBRING, Florida (CNN) -- A couple of hours up the road from where some September 11 hijackers learned to fly, the new head of Aryan Nation is praising them -- and trying to create an unholy alliance between his white supremacist group and al Qaeda.

"You say they're terrorists, I say they're freedom fighters. And I want to instill the same jihadic feeling in our peoples' heart, in the Aryan race, that they have for their father, who they call Allah."

With his long beard and potbelly, August Kreis looks more like a washed up member of ZZ Top than an aspiring revolutionary.

Don't let appearances fool you: his resume includes stops at some of America's nastiest extremist groups -- Posse Comitatus, the Ku Klux Klan and Aryan Nation.

"I don't believe that they were the ones that attacked us," Kreis said. "And even if they did, even if you say they did, I don't care!"

Kreis wants to make common cause with al Qaeda because, he says, they share the same enemies: Jews and the American government.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/03/29/schuster.column/

[shaayecanaan]

11. I make a distinction between far-right wing parties that command 15% of the popular vote...

and far right wing parties that occasionally manage to broadcast a pirate radio show from their log cabin whenever they remember to pay their power bill.

[oberliner]

12. The neo-Nazis cited in the OP are not political parties with 15% of the popular vote

The article does not address political parties - that was a topic you introduced.

The article addresses groups of neo-Nazis making common cause with Muslim immigrants based on a common antisemitic ideology.

You had indicated that you could not imagine such alliances; however, I believe there is information available that indicates otherwise.

[Douglas Carpenter]

15. the article you just cited from CNN is about Aryan Nation making common cause with Al Qaeda

unless you are suggesting Muslim immigrants = Al Qaeda

[oberliner]

18. "I think its laughable that neo-Nazi groups would reconcile with Muslims to attack Jews"

That is the claim that I am disputing.

Neo-Nazis (such as the loathsome individual cited in my response) are willing to align themselves with even the most detestable of Islamic groups (such as Al-Qaeda) to make common cause in the desire to attack Jews (as is evidenced from the remarks cited).

[shaayecanaan]

21. You're revealing your ignorance of German politics...

German Neo-Nazis positively *despise* Turks. Anti Turkish sentiment in Germany is massive.

What you're effectively suggesting is that the Grand Dragon of the Ku Klux Klan would team up with Louis Farrakhan to attack Jews. Sure, neither of them like Jews, but their mutual antipathy is so fundamental that an alliance between the two is simply laughable.

from Wikipedia:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism#Germany

Neo-Nazis were involved in the murders of three Turkish girls in a November 23, 1992 arson attack in Mölln, in which nine other people were injured. A May 29, 1993 arson attack by far right skinheads on the house of a Turkish family in Solingen resulted in the deaths of two women and three girls, as well as in severe injuries for seven other people.<70> This, and similar incidents preceded demonstrations in many German cities involving hundreds of thousands of people protesting against far right violence. These protests precipitated massive neo-Nazi counter-demonstrations and violent clashes between neo-Nazis and anti-fascists. Statistics show that in 1991, there were 849 hate crimes, and in 1992 there were 1,485 (with a significant concentration in the eastern Bundesländer). After 1992, the numbers went down, although they have risen sharply in subsequent years. In 4 decades of the former East Germany, 17 people have been murdered by far right groups.<71>

[oberliner]

22. Allow me to provide you with some information not sourced from Wikipedia

I find it odd that you are using Wikipedia as your source material to showcase your understanding of Germany's Neo-Nazis. Especially since the excerpt you've included contains information that is labeled with the note "citation needed" or with dead links such as the defunct "geocities" page of citation #71.

In your initial response to the OP, you made mention of far-right political parties in Britain, Norway, and Italy but not of such parties in Germany itself, which is also odd since that is the country the article dealt with.

As someone who is clearly quite knowledgeable about German politics, you are no doubt aware of the far-right National Democratic Party of Germany which is about the closest thing to a neo-Nazi political party that exists in that country.

This Germany neo-Nazi group has consistently aligned themselves with the cause of the Palestinians expressing solidarity with them in their conflict with Israel.

In January of 2009, the NPD held a vigil in Berlin to "stop the Israeli holocaust in the Gaza Strip."

More recently, Holger Apfel, a party legislator, spoke out against the Israeli attack on the Turkish ship in the recent flotilla to Gaza. He said that the attack demonstrates a new 'characteristic' of 'state terror' employed by Israel.

And he added: "Since the establishment of the state in 1948 and the expulsion of millions of Palestinians -- the history of Israel has been accompanied by bloodshed."

Apfel's comments were covered in a variety of news sources, from the EU Times to Iran's Press TV:

http://www.eutimes.net/2010/06/german-legislator-stop-thriving-holocaust-industry/
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=131009§ionid=351020604

There is no doubt that this far-right, essentially neo-Nazi political party in Germany has chosen to align itself in precisely the manner that you find "laughable".

[Violet_Crumble]

23. Press tv? Since when has that been a reliable source??

And since when is referencing Wiki 'showcasing' understanding? That's a really ridiculous thing to say!

[oberliner]

25. Never sure what some people consider to be reliable sources

Here's an Israeli source with the same information:

http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3907075,00.html

Now we've got an Israeli source, an Iranian source, and an EU source.

And you are right - "showcasing understanding" was a ridiculous thing to say. I don't even know what I meant by that phrasing.

My point was that Wikipedia was being used to provide information about German Neo-Nazis, but the Wikipedia entry contained missing citations and dead links; thus it seemed a poor choice in that context.

[Violet_Crumble]

26. I'm positive you've told others before it's not a reliable source...

And I'm very uncomfortable with attempts to portray Muslim immigrants as being aligned with neo-Nazis due to hatred of Jews.

[oberliner]

27. Probably so - sadly, not everyone believes what I tell them!

That's why I included more than one source. And now a third. There are others from German sources that are in German. Is it your contention that the information is not accurate or just that I am hypocritical for using a source I have previously criticized? If it's the latter, then I would say in my defense that I included it for those who disagree with my views on its reliability. If it is the former, then please feel free to PM me and I can send you links to the German sources with (what appears to be) the same information.

I would add that I am not attempting to portray Muslim immigrants as being aligned with neo-Nazis due to hatred of Jews, but rather to portray neo-Nazis being willing to take up pro-Palestinian causes due to their hatred of Jews.

I would hope that no Muslim immigrant would want anything to do with these despicable neo-Nazis in spite of whatever positions those neo-Nazis may appear to hold with respect to Israel that Muslim immigrants may agree with.

[Violet_Crumble]

28. My contention is the latter one about hypocrisy...

I would add that I am not attempting to portray Muslim immigrants as being aligned with neo-Nazis due to hatred of Jews, but rather to portray neo-Nazis being willing to take up pro-Palestinian causes due to their hatred of Jews.

Thanks for clarifying. In that regard neo-nazis remind me of the elements among US conservatives who'll go all pro-Israel to the max out of their hatred of Arabs and Muslims, even though they also hate Jews...

[oberliner]

29. I try to include sources that can appeal to a wide variety of readers

If two or mote different sources with very different political leanings contain the same information it is usually easier to get folks to accept that said information is accurate and not just a result of the source itself.

And I agree with your point about some US conservatives and their support for Israel.

[shira]

17. Here's a recent example from the past week in Lebanon

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=1&article_id=116935#axzz0u7pbs05H

And then, of course, there's the Grand Mufti and his ties to Hitler back in the 30's and 40's. Al Husseyni was extremely popular throughout the Arab world.

[shaayecanaan]

20. Or you have the ties between the Zionists and the Nazis as well (nt)

[pscot]

19. Skinheads aren't a political party

They are violent proto-fascist thugs whose rage is focused on Jews. That's not to say that the propagandists who foster this crap aren't political. And alignments of the sort described in the article are temporary expedients. Tomorrow these same skinheads might burn down a mosque.

[LeftishBrit]

delete (dupe)

[LeftishBrit]

13. The Far Right likes to exploit divisions.

Especially at times of economic hardship.

Here is a way of getting allies in their violence toward the Jews, *and* trying to get the Muslim immigrants to be the 'fall guys'.