Israel provokes Palestinians and US by going ahead with new settlements

[bemildred]

Israel provoked both the US and the Palestinians today by announcing plans to build 238 new housing units in East Jerusalem, a move that throws into doubt already fragile peace negotiations.

Publication of the housing plans comes at a time when discussions between the Israelis and Palestinians being brokered by the US are stalled.

The Palestinians today accused the Israeli prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, of putting settlements before peace.

A senior US administration official, responding to media reports of the new house plan, said: "We saw that story as well and we are working to confirm that it occurred."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/15/israel-new-settlements-us-palestinians

[Ruby the Liberal]

1. The continued freeze was conditioned on Abbas and Erekat agreeing to recognize Israel as a Jewish

nation. They declined. Palestine will be a muslim nation, so :shrug:

[hayu_lol]

2. Even if Abbas and Erekat agreed to the terms...

HAMAS and other major groups are not at the table. Should things flare up out of control, all the PA can do is say: It wasn't us...it was them...and so it goes.

Without HAMAS at the table there can be no agreement.

[Ruby the Liberal]

4. This is very true.

One wonders why they are even bothering flying back and forth from the middle east to the US/UN given the lack of Hamas backing.

Just a huge waste of energy.

[whosinpower]

6. And if Abbas resigns and dissolves the PA

Which he has threatened to do....then Hamas steps into the power void...unless international peacekeepers step in - which Abbas did hint at....going to the UN,etc.

[Violet_Crumble]

3. They declined for good reason. It's an idiotic demand to place on them...

The Palestinians have already recognised the right of Israel to exist. Continuing to build settlements is most definately not the actions of a party that's in any way intersted in a fair and just peace for both Israelis and Palestinians...

Also, you say that Palestine would be a Muslim state. Even if a Palestinian state emerges (which I doubt will ever happen if Israel continues to have its way), unless the Palestinians demand that Israel recognises it as a Muslim state and until it does it's going to start building settlements all over Israel, it's not the same thing as a state defining itself as something...

[Ruby the Liberal]

5. Can you provide linkage to that claim?

It is in the PA charter that they refuse to recognize Israel as a state. That is one of the obstacles, and as far as I know, they have not removed that particular clause.

I would be greatly appreciative if you could point me in the direction to documentation where that has happened as that would change a world of issues about this quagmire.

[Violet_Crumble]

7. Here's the official recognition...

September 9, 1993


Yitzhak Rabin

Prime Minister of Israel



Mr. Prime Minister,


The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era in the history of the Middle East. In firm conviction thereof, I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments:


The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.


The PLO accepts United Nations Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338.


The PLO commits itself to the Middle East peace process, and to a peaceful resolution of the conflict between the two sides and declares that all outstanding issues relating to permanent status will be resolved through negotiations.


The PLO considers that the signing of the Declaration of Principles constitutes a historic event, inaugurating a new epoch of peaceful coexistence, free from violence and all other acts which endanger peace and stability. Accordingly, the PLO renounces the use of terrorism and other acts of violence and will assume responsibility over all PLO elements and personnel in order to assure their compliance, prevent violations and discipline violators


In view of the promise of a new era and the signing of the Declaration of Principles and based on Palestinian acceptance of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, the PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid. Consequently, the PLO undertakes to submit to the Palestinian National Council for formal approval the necessary changes in regard to the Palestinian Covenant.



Sincerely,


Yasser Arafat

Chairman

The Palestine Liberation Organization

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/recogn.html

There's many good books out there about the Oslo Accords. If yr interested in learning about them, I can steer you towards a few...

[Ruby the Liberal]

10. The PLO doesn't exist any longer.

Any links for Hamas (the legitimately elected government) reversing their charter in this century?

I am not looking for a fight - just making the point that the obliteration of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian State (as opposed to a 2-state solution) is still on the books, and not on the table.

[Violet_Crumble]

13. The PA sure does....

Hamas are NOT the legitimately elected government. The PA are and they're the ones who Israel dealt with during the Oslo period and they're the ones all the agreements were made with. They most definately have recognised the right of Israel to exist. I posted a link to the official recognition for you as well as offering to point you to some reading on the Oslo period, and I'm not sure at all how you could have seen the document I linked to and turn around and still insist that the Palestinians have not only never recognised Israel, but want to destroy it...

[Ruby the Liberal]

14. "Hamas are NOT the legitimately elected government."

Seriously? Did you sleep through 2006?

[Violet_Crumble]

24. No, they're not. The PA is...

And no, I didn't sleep through 2006. I spent that year following the conflict, much like the previous years and the ones after, but thanks for the bit of snark :) Israel has been 'negotiating' with the PA, which is the interim administrative authority of the Palestinian people. Israel refuses to meet with Hamas, which currently control the Gaza Strip. Hamas would more than likely refuse to meet with Israel, but we won't know that until Israel and the US give it a try.

So, to recap. Despite yr belief otherwise, the Palestinians have officially recognised Israel's existance. What they've not done and shouldn't have to do out of the sheer idiocy of it, is to recognise Israel as a Jewish state or any other sort of state. If you think they should have to do that, could you please explain why no other state has to do it and what examples there are of other states demanding that the people they carry out long-term occupations of recognise them as a (insert name of relgiious/ethnic group here) state that excludes a large number of the citizens both of that country and also the people that country occupies?

[Ruby the Liberal]

21. Abbas 10/15/10: 'We'll never sign agreement recognizing Jewish state'

PA President Abbas meets with Hadash MKs; says any deal requiring recognition or land swap out of the question.

Any peace agreement which requires the Palestinians to recognize Israel as a Jewish state or an exchange of land is out of the question, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said Friday.

In a Ramallah meeting with Hadash party Knesset members, Abbas said that it was now up to Israel to recognize a Palestinian state with 1967 borders, and that the PA had already recognised Israel back in 1993, thus negating the need for any further acknowledgment.

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=191538

So, if it is already "policy", why is it "out of the question" today unless it was taqqiya? :shrug:

It is all bullshit.

[Violet_Crumble]

23. The difference is that now they're demanding Israel be recognised as a Jewish state...

Please reread the document I posted for you to look at. That is an official recognition of Israel, not recognising Israel as any particular sort of state, which is what this new thing is that you've posted a link to. Do you understand what the difference is?

[Ruby the Liberal]

26. Yes, I do - and why I posted that this was the reason for the removal of the settlement freeze

Why you went down this rabbit hole is a mystery, but whatever.

[Violet_Crumble]

27. I'll refresh yr memory, then...

I pointed out that demanding the Palestinians recognise Israel as a Jewish state was complete idiocy and that the Palestinians have already officially recognised the existance of Israel. And apparently that must have been the moment I opened up the rabbit hole that you eagerly threw yrself into with thge following post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=335596&mesg_id=335625

Yeah, but, whatever!

[shira]

30. Ruby, here's video evidence you're 100% correct and it's why Israel is insisting on recognition now

http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=713&fld_id=713&doc_id=862
http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=381&fld_id=381&doc_id=457

Watch both.

You see, to many here a piece of paper signed nearly 20 years ago should be enough for those paranoid Zionists in Israel, despite the taqqiya from the PLO and its cheerleaders that persists to this day. Abbas and Dahlan are admitting they only recognize Israel NOW for political reasons, not permanently as a neighboring state they can work with peacefully decades from now. Why? Because the goal is still to destroy Israel in phases. After a phase one peace deal, they'll go after Israel within the green line, with RoR or BSD, etc. The war will go on. Same shit from 1948.

But we must pretend war is in reality peace, and therefore help the far Rightwing extremists of the PLO and Hamas in their efforts against the Jewish state, down to the very last drop of Palestinian blood.

More video here...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=335588&mesg_id=335674

[Crunchy Frog]

9. There are many Palestinian Christians. Will they not have a place

in the theoretical Palestinian state?

[Ruby the Liberal]

11. You would have to ask the legitimately elected government - Hamas.

From their charter:

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

[Crunchy Frog]

12. Yes, but Hamas is not party to the negotiations in question,

so it's kind of irrelevant.

[Ruby the Liberal]

15. Irrelevant? The negotiations are irrelevant.

Unless the Palestinian people elect the PA into power, Hamas is the government.

[azurnoir]

17. No it is not Abbas is the elected leader of the PA

abbas was elected to lead the PA he was appointed to lead the PLO

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1933453.stm

[Crunchy Frog]

22. And Nutty Yahoo and his party are the elected government of Israel

in actual fact, rather than in the rhetorical sense with which you claim Hamas as the government of the Palestinians.

[Violet_Crumble]

25. You seem to be forgetting the West Bank n/t

[azurnoir]

16. Hamas was not elected to lead

it simply took the majority of seats in the Palestinian Parliament, your seems not to know about or something

[Ruby the Liberal]

18. "your seems not to know about"

Wut?

Hamas is the duly elected government of Palestine. How is this confusing?

[azurnoir]

19. Hamas is not the duly elected government of Palestine

and your putting my typo as your title line makes wonder if you already know that

[Ruby the Liberal]

20. That is more than one typo

But speaking of which, you should update your sig line to "forgiveness".

Good quote BTW.

[Violet_Crumble]

28. Is there a daily DU typo limit that we can't go over?

I always wonder why people don't realise that when they've lost an argument on a forum that it looks really obvious when they start pointing out the typos of other posters :)

[Crunchy Frog]

8. Yes, but it's the Palestinian's fault for not ratifying the 2nd class status

of the Israeli Arabs.

[classysassy]

29. We as a nation continue

to pay a price for our blind support of the Israeli government and their destructive behavior.

[polly7]

31. I wonder how many Americans, Canadians, what have you, would

have no problem with Russians, or Somalians, or Chinese, or whoever felt like it ...... building homes on unused land in their own countries. Illegally. There seem to be quite a few here who would have no problem with it. Also, imagine that land is land your forefathers tended lovingly, planted beautiful trees that sustained their families, or perhaps the land was viewed as sacred ..... regardless, it was your country's land. What is stunning to me is that anyone feels they have this right, and laughs at the rest of the world as they do it. And they wonder why Palestinians don't accept their bull* peace talks.

[shira]

32. You're talking about land from which Jews were ethnically cleansed in 1948, like the Jewish quarter

[polly7]

33. No, I'm talking about all land in Palestine that Israel is stealing.

Please don't assume.

[shira]

34. So Israel is not, in your view, stealing land Jews were ethnically cleansed from in 1948? n/t