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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-18-11 10:06 AM
Original message
'Partner for peace' has strange way of showing it
<snip>

Passover is one of the most important, holy events on the Jewish calendar, commemorating the Jews' exodus from slavery. To mark this callous, cold-blooded massacre, one of the worst on Israeli soil, Issa Karake, the PA Minister of Prisoners' Affairs, visited last week the family of Al-Sayed (who is serving 35 life sentences in an Israeli prison for the attack), awarding them with an official, festive plaque.

PA President Abbas and Prime Minister Fayaad tell us they are ''moderates'' and a ''partner for peace'' with Israel. However, while the PA is often quoted as saying it is committed to ending the glorification of terrorists and incitement to violence, its actions often portray a very different picture as the honouring of Al-Sayed demonstrates. Most disturbingly, this is only one of many recent examples of official PA glorification of terror and violence.

In the past 12 months alone, the PA has: Awarded a $US2000 grant to the family of a Palestinian suicide bomber killed trying to detonate two bombs against IDF soldiers; named public squares and sponsored sporting events in honour of infamous terrorists; and through its official newspaper, Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, reported that Israel aspires to destroy the al-Aqsa Mosque in order to build the Third Temple on its ruins.

<snip>

Palestinian incitement makes peace all but impossible. As Arab-Israeli journalist Khaled Abu Toameh pointedly noted, in a question to the PA: ''If you keep inciting your people, then they ask 'well, why are we then making peace with the Jews? We should be killing them as Hamas is saying'''. President Barack Obama himself, in May last year, appealed directly to President Abbas to do ''whatever he can'' to prevent acts of incitement and delegitimisation of Israel...

more...
http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/opinion/editorial/general/partner-for-peace-has-strange-way-of-showing-it/2136856.aspx?storypage=1




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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-18-11 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
1. indeed the partner for peace has a strange way of showing it and actions do speak lounder than words

http://reform-dem.blogspot.com/2009/04/israeli-west-bank-settlement-growth.html




West Bank settlement population has indeed increased every single year. But what's really surprising is that the general trend has not changed significantly even when Israel was intensely negotiating a two-state agreement with the Palestinians. This implies that Israel has never actually been serious about a two-state solution.

http://reform-dem.blogspot.com/2009/04/israeli-west-bank-settlement-growth.html






“there is no Palestinian state, even though the Israelis speak of one.” Instead, he said, “there will be a settler state and a Palestinian built-up area, divided into three sectors, cut by fingers of Israeli settlement and connected only by narrow roads."
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/11/world/middleeast/11road.html?_r=12&pagewanted=2&ei=5070&en=22948d4799a34065&ex=1187496000&emc=eta1&oref


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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-18-11 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Hey, look over there! Blame Israel b/c the Palestinians can never be faulted for anything!!!
Edited on Mon Apr-18-11 11:10 AM by shira
You didn't mention that the Palestinians have rejected every single offer for a state of their own, from 1937 up to the one from 2008 in which they were offered 100% of pre-1967 WB and Gaza territory (with land swaps).

:eyes:

They could have had a state of their own next to Israel many times over, right Douglas? Why have they rejected every single offer, Doug? Hint: Incitement is the clue!

Not that you'll answer...
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-18-11 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Population growth in the settlements appears to be slowing down
In spite of the high birth rate among the Orthodox who make up a sizable amount of the settler population (especially if you don't include East Jerusalem).

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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-18-11 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
4. The Myth of the Generous Offer


July/August 2002

The Myth of the Generous Offer
Distorting the Camp David negotiations



By Seth Ackerman

link:

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113


The seemingly endless volleys of attack and retaliation in the Middle East leave many people wondering why the two sides can't reach an agreement. The answer is simple, according to numerous commentators: At the Camp David meeting in July 2000, Israel "offered extraordinary concessions" (Michael Kelly, Washington Post, 3/13/02), "far-reaching concessions" (Boston Globe, 12/30/01), "unprecedented concessions" (E.J. Dionne, Washington Post, 12/4/01). Israel’s "generous peace terms" (L.A. Times editorial, 3/15/02) constituted "the most far-reaching offer ever" (Chicago Tribune editorial, 6/6/01) to create a Palestinian state. In short, Camp David was "an unprecedented concession" to the Palestinians (Time, 12/25/00).

But due to "Arafat's recalcitrance" (L.A. Times editorial, 4/9/02) and "Palestinian rejectionism" (Mortimer Zuckerman, U.S. News & World Report, 3/22/02), "Arafat walked away from generous Israeli peacemaking proposals without even making a counteroffer" (Salon, 3/8/01). Yes, Arafat "walked away without making a counteroffer" (Samuel G. Freedman, USA Today, 6/18/01). Israel "offered peace terms more generous than ever before and Arafat did not even make a counteroffer" (Chicago Sun-Times editorial, 11/10/00). In case the point isn't clear: "At Camp David, Ehud Barak offered the Palestinians an astonishingly generous peace with dignity and statehood. Arafat not only turned it down, he refused to make a counteroffer!" (Charles Krauthammer, Seattle Times, 10/16/00).

This account is one of the most tenacious myths of the conflict. Its implications are obvious: There is nothing Israel can do to make peace with its Palestinian neighbors. The Israeli army’s increasingly deadly attacks, in this version, can be seen purely as self-defense against Palestinian aggression that is motivated by little more than blind hatred.

Locking in occupation

To understand what actually happened at Camp David, it's necessary to know that for many years the PLO has officially called for a two-state solution in which Israel would keep the 78 percent of the Palestine Mandate (as Britain's protectorate was called) that it has controlled since 1948, and a Palestinian state would be formed on the remaining 22 percent that Israel has occupied since the 1967 war (the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem). Israel would withdraw completely from those lands, return to the pre-1967 borders and a resolution to the problem of the Palestinian refugees who were forced to flee their homes in 1948 would be negotiated between the two sides. Then, in exchange, the Palestinians would agree to recognize Israel (PLO Declaration, 12/7/88; PLO Negotiations Department).

Although some people describe Israel's Camp David proposal as practically a return to the 1967 borders, it was far from that. Under the plan, Israel would have withdrawn completely from the small Gaza Strip. But /b] it would annex strategically important and highly valuable sections of the West Bank--while retaining "security control" over other parts--that would have made it impossible for the Palestinians to travel or trade freely within their own state without the permission of the Israeli government (Political Science Quarterly, 6/22/01; New York Times, 7/26/01; Report on Israeli Settlement in the Occupied Territories, 9-10/00; Robert Malley, New York Review of Books, 8/9/01).

The annexations and security arrangements would divide the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region's scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert--about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex--including a former toxic waste dump.

Because of the geographic placement of Israel’s proposed West Bank annexations, Palestinians living in their new "independent state" would be forced to cross Israeli territory every time they traveled or shipped goods from one section of the West Bank to another, and Israel could close those routes at will. Israel would also retain a network of so-called "bypass roads" that would crisscross the Palestinian state while remaining sovereign Israeli territory, further dividing the West Bank.

Israel was also to have kept "security control" for an indefinite period of time over the Jordan Valley, the strip of territory that forms the border between the West Bank and neighboring Jordan. Palestine would not have free access to its own international borders with Jordan and Egypt--putting Palestinian trade, and therefore its economy, at the mercy of the Israeli military.

Had Arafat agreed to these arrangements, the Palestinians would have permanently locked in place many of the worst aspects of the very occupation they were trying to bring to an end. For at Camp David, Israel also demanded that Arafat sign an "end-of-conflict" agreement stating that the decades-old war between Israel and the Palestinians was over and waiving all further claims against Israel.

Violence or negotiation?

The Camp David meeting ended without agreement on July 25, 2000. At this point, according to conventional wisdom, the Palestinian leader's "response to the Camp David proposals was not a counteroffer but an assault" (Oregonian editorial, 8/15/01). "Arafat figured he could push one more time to get one more batch of concessions. The talks collapsed. Violence erupted again" (E.J. Dionne, Washington Post, 12/4/01). He "used the uprising to obtain through violence...what he couldn't get at the Camp David bargaining table" (Chicago Sun-Times, 12/21/00).

But the Intifada actually did not start for another two months. In the meantime, there was relative calm in the occupied territories. During this period of quiet, the two sides continued negotiating behind closed doors. Meanwhile, life for the Palestinian population under Israeli occupation went on as usual. On July 28, Prime Minister Barak announced that Israel had no plans to withdraw from the town of Abu Dis, as it had pledged to do in the 1995 Oslo II agreement (Israel Wire, 7/28/00). In August and early September, Israel announced new construction on Jewish-only settlements in Efrat and Har Adar, while the Israeli statistics bureau reported that settlement building had increased 81 percent in the first quarter of 2000. Two Palestinian houses were demolished in East Jerusalem, and Arab residents of Sur Bahir and Suwahara received expropriation notices; their houses lay in the path of a planned Jewish-only highway (Report on Israeli Settlement in the Occupied Territories, 11-12/00).

The Intifada began on September 29, 2000, when Israeli troops opened fire on unarmed Palestinian rock-throwers at the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, killing four and wounding over 200 (State Department human rights report for Israel, 2/01). Demonstrations spread throughout the territories. Barak and Arafat, having both staked their domestic reputations on their ability to win a negotiated peace from the other side, now felt politically threatened by the violence. In January 2001, they resumed formal negotiations at Taba, Egypt.

The Taba talks are one of the most significant and least remembered events of the "peace process." While so far in 2002 (1/1/02-5/31/02), Camp David has been mentioned in conjunction with Israel 35 times on broadcast network news shows, Taba has come up only four times--never on any of the nightly newscasts. In February 2002, Israel's leading newspaper, Ha'aretz (2/14/02), published for the first time the text of the European Union's official notes of the Taba talks, which were confirmed in their essential points by negotiators from both sides.

"Anyone who reads the European Union account of the Taba talks," Ha'aretz noted in its introduction, "will find it hard to believe that only 13 months ago, Israel and the Palestinians were so close to a peace agreement." At Taba, Israel dropped its demand to control Palestine's borders and the Jordan Valley. The Palestinians, for the first time, made detailed counterproposals--in other words, counteroffers--showing which changes to the 1967 borders they would be willing to accept. The Israeli map that has emerged from the talks shows a fully contiguous West Bank, though with a very narrow middle and a strange gerrymandered western border to accommodate annexed settlements.

In the end, however, all this proved too much for Israel's Labor prime minister. On January 28, Barak unilaterally broke off the negotiations. "The pressure of Israeli public opinion against the talks could not be resisted," Ben-Ami said (New York Times, 7/26/01).

Settlements off the table

In February 2001, Ariel Sharon was elected prime minister of Israel. Sharon has made his position on the negotiations crystal clear. "You know, it's not by accident that the settlements are located where they are," he said in an interview a few months after his election (Ha'aretz, 4/12/01).


They safeguard the cradle of the Jewish people's birth and also provide strategic depth which is vital to our existence.

The settlements were established according to the conception that, come what may, we have to hold the western security area , which is adjacent to the Green Line, and the eastern security area along the Jordan River and the roads linking the two. And Jerusalem, of course. And the hill aquifer. Nothing has changed with respect to any of those things. The importance of the security areas has not diminished, it may even have increased. So I see no reason for evacuating any settlements.


Meanwhile, Ehud Barak has repudiated his own positions at Taba, and now speaks pointedly of the need for a negotiated settlement "based on the principles presented at Camp David" (New York Times op-ed, 4/14/02).

In April 2002, the countries of the Arab League--from moderate Jordan to hardline Iraq--unanimously agreed on a Saudi peace plan centering around full peace, recognition and normalization of relations with Israel in exchange for a complete Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 borders as well as a "just resolution" to the refugee issue. Palestinian negotiator Nabil Sha'ath declared himself "delighted" with the plan. "The proposal constitutes the best terms of reference for our political struggle," he told the Jordan Times (3/28/02).

Ariel Sharon responded by declaring that "a return to the 1967 borders will destroy Israel" (New York Times, 5/4/02). In a commentary on the Arab plan, Ha'aretz's Bradley Burston (2/27/02) noted that the offer was "forcing Israel to confront peace terms it has quietly feared for decades."

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113



regarding the Taba Talks:

Contrary to popular mythology in some circles, Arafat did NOT walk out of Taba..The Israeli negotiating team under instruction from the Prime Minister Ehud Barak unilaterally ended the talks in January 2001 because of the election which Ariel Sharon was predicted to win by a landslide with an absolute promise to reject any agreement with the Palestinians reached at Taba. These facts are not in dispute among sane and rational people.

Here is the link to the European Union notes - known as the Morantinos documents which all sides have confirmed to be a reliable record of what occurred at Taba, Egypt in January 2001.

http://prrn.mcgill.ca/research/papers/moratinos.htm

snip: "Beilin stressed that the Taba talks were not halted because they hit a crisis, but rather because of the Israeli election ."

snip:"This document, whose main points have been approved by the Taba negotiators as an accurate description of the discussions, casts additional doubts on the prevailing assumption that Ehud Barak "exposed Yasser Arafat's true face." It is true that on most of the issues discussed during that wintry week of negotiations, sizable gaps remain. Yet almost every line is redolent of the effort to find a compromise that would be acceptable to both sides. It is hard to escape the thought that if the negotiations at Camp David six months earlier had been conducted with equal seriousness, the intifada might never have erupted. And perhaps, if Barak had not waited until the final weeks before the election, and had instead sent his senior representatives to that southern hotel earlier, the violence might never have broken out."

-----------

Here is a neutral and dispassionate examination of what led to the break down at Camp David in 2000 and Taba in January 2001:

Vision of Collision: What Happened at Camp David and Taba" by Professor Jeremy Pressman:


http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/publication/322/visions_in_collision.html?breadcrumb=%2Fexperts%2F355%2Fjeremy_pressman

---------------------------

For a detailed and dispassionate discussion at what happened at Camp David and Taba here is a debate between lead Israeli negotiator and former Israeli Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami and Professor Norman Finkelstein:

listen/watch/read"

http://www.democracynow.org/2006/2/14/fmr_israeli_foreign_minister_shlomo_ben

-----------------------




Sharon calls peace talks a campaign ploy by Barak
Likud leader says he won't comply with latest agreements



January 28, 2001
Web posted at: 1:42 p.m. EST (1842 GMT)

"Sharon leads Barak by 16 to 20 percentage points in opinion polls that have changed little in recent weeks."

link:

http://premium.europe.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/02/06/mideast.palestinians.02/index.html





" Ehud Barak is endangering the state of Israel to obtain a piece of paper to help him in the election," Sharon said at a campaign stop Saturday. "Once the people of Israel find out what is in the paper and what Barak has conceded, he won't get any more votes."

link: http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/01/27/mideast.01/index.html

--------------------------



Livni tells France's Kouchner: I oppose Olmert's peace plan



Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni told her French counterpart Bernard Kouchner that she opposes the agreement in principle that outgoing prime minister Ehud Olmert has offered Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas.

"I do not believe in far-reaching proposals and an attempt to expedite matters, especially in light of the political situation," Livni, the prime minister-designate, told Kouchner on Sunday.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/livni-tells-france-s-kouchner-i-oppose-olmert-s-peace-plan-1.285402






Netanyahu: I won't carry out an Olmert-Abbas peace deal if elected



Opposition Chairman Benjamin Netanyahu has said if he is elected prime minister, he won't carry out any peace deal with the Palestinians reached by the current Israeli leader, Ehud Olmert, the Makor Rishon daily reported on Thursday.

Polls show that if elections were held today, Netanyahu would handily beat both Olmert and the Labor Party's chairman, Defense Minister Ehud Barak.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3533242,00.html



"Negotiations on the basis for land for peace are a mistake...and will destroy us." - Current Israeli Foreign Minister, Avigdor Lieberman

(Reuters, January 16th, 2009)

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1878741,00.html#ixzz1JtOfwjeC
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-18-11 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. It was generous enough that Arafat regretted rejecting it.
Edited on Mon Apr-18-11 02:18 PM by shira
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/jun/22/israel

He should have accepted that offer, right? Just as Abbas should've accepted Olmert's offer?

This conflict should've been over a decade ago, but you're defending the rejectionists for choosing more war instead.

Why?
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-18-11 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. If Israel's offer was sincere why did they refuse Arafat's acceptance of it?
it would appear the offer was only for show or was it something else, like a Republican had taken over the WH?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-18-11 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Arafat should have accepted when the doves were in power, not the hawks.
Edited on Mon Apr-18-11 02:56 PM by shira
Right?

This should have been over 10 years ago.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-18-11 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. but your article is from 2002 and Arafat's been dead since 2005 n/t
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-18-11 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Your last quote is all the more reason why the Palestinians should've accepted the offer
Had the peace plan been agreed to, Avigdor Lieberman would've never ended up being the Israeli Foreign Minister.

Had the peace plan been agreed to, however, there would be an independent Palestinian state.
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