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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-11 09:18 AM
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Editor's Notes: The moralist
Excerpts...

Tel Aviv University philosophy professor Asa Kasher co-authored the first IDF Code of Ethics and continues to work on the moral doctrines that shape the parameters of our army’s actions. He has taught at the IDF colleges since the late 1970s and for a long time was the only professor talking to officers about military ethics. When the IDF decided to try writing a Code of Ethics, he was approached and appointed head of a team of generals that wrote a draft and then the final version of the 1994 code, which was approved by chief of staff Ehud Barak and prime minister Yitzhak Rabin.

In the wake of Richard Goldstone’s belated withdrawal of the accusation that Israel deliberately targeted civilians in Operation Cast Lead, and the fresh round of moral argument the judge’s climbdown has provoked, I contacted Kasher to discuss the IDF’s ethics. I wanted to understand the thinking that underpins IDF dos and don’ts, the problematics of grappling with enemies that do not follow any such rules, and the gaping discrepancy, Goldstone’s reversal notwithstanding, between most Israelis’ certainty of the IDF’s morality and the international diplomatic, media and legal community’s relentless opprobrium.

...

I was very struck, in 2006, when I interviewed the thenair force commander Eliezer Shkedy, and he told me the Gaza Kassam crews often took kids out with them when they went to fire on Israel. I asked him whether we regarded these children as combatants, and thus were prepared to fire at them. He was offended by the question. He said that of course the IAF wouldn’t fire on them. What it had done, he said, was improved its accuracy so that it could target the Kassam crews more precisely without hitting the children. (“If we know that the terrorist is holding his son’s hand, we do not fire,” Shkedy said then. “Even if the terrorist is in the midst of firing a Kassam, and the Kassam is aimed to kill. We do not fire. You should know that.”)

...

These Palestinians and Hezbollah, they’re playing this win-win game and it’s depressing to see. If Israel doesn’t fire at them, they’re very happy, and I can understand that. But if Israel does fire on them, and children are hurt, they’re also happy. They celebrate. I believe that these losses destroy the mothers and the fathers. But the community is ostensibly happy: “Great, we’ve got something nasty to say against Israel. Israel kills children.” And you have this whole community, including parts of the international media and some Israelis, who look at these episodes with one eye. This community sees only the poor children who have been killed. And they really are pitiful children. What’s the emerging narrative? That Israel kills children and doesn’t care about it. Such aggressors. Such barbarians. And all the thousand things we do precisely to avoid such situations are ignored. This community and various international political bodies tell us, “Yes, you’re entitled to defend yourselves. We can’t take that away from you. The right to self-defense is in the charter of the United Nations. So yes, you have to protect yourselves. But you mustn’t harm anybody who isn’t dangerous.” There is no such reality. Not in Iraq, not in Afghanistan.

MUCH MORE, MUST READ...
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=217479
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henank Donating Member (755 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-23-11 04:20 PM
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1. A brilliant read.
Absolutely fascinating, very enlightening - and most importantly, destroying all the ugly myths about Israel.
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parkia00 Donating Member (401 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 04:18 AM
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2. Reality or Fantasy?
When I read the many posts here on the I/P forum I try really hard to keep an open mind on what was said then try to compare what was said with what actually occurs. For example reading this entire paragraph:

"I was very struck, in 2006, when I interviewed the thenair force commander Eliezer Shkedy, and he told me the Gaza Kassam crews often took kids out with them when they went to fire on Israel. I asked him whether we regarded these children as combatants, and thus were prepared to fire at them. He was offended by the question. He said that of course the IAF wouldn’t fire on them. What it had done, he said, was improved its accuracy so that it could target the Kassam crews more precisely without hitting the children. (“If we know that the terrorist is holding his son’s hand, we do not fire,” Shkedy said then. “Even if the terrorist is in the midst of firing a Kassam, and the Kassam is aimed to kill. We do not fire. You should know that.”)

I am struck by the fact that what was said here is utter nonsense compared to what actually happens. Maybe the rules are there but in reality it's not followed very well. There are so many cases of civilians being killed because of IDF fire. We all the time hear the standard IDF justifications of how they regret civilian deaths but it was Hamas's fault or Hezbollah's fault for attacking Israel while hiding behind civilians. Yet according to this fellow such a thing does not happen? IDF will hold fire? Comeon! This is more or less like a snake oil seller selling his wares.

If reality follows what this fellow says concerning IDF's rules of engagement there would be no occupied apartment buildings brought down by airdropped 1 ton bombs, there would be no schools and hospital bombed, there would be no ambulances and passenger vans bombed. But yet all these things have happened because the IDF believes that the elimination of certain targets in these situations was more important than the collateral damage the IDF knew would happen.

"We do not fire. You should know that.” This is such utter bull. I hate it when some people give you a lump of shit and insist it's chocolate and expect you to accept it.

Of course some people would ... and eat it too and call it good.

This is good shit.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Colonel Richard Kemp, former British commander in Afghanistan & Hamas disagree with you...
Edited on Sun Apr-24-11 05:36 AM by shira
Kemp concluded by saying that from his "knowledge of the IDF and from the extent to which I have been following the current operation, I don’t think there has ever been a time in the history of warfare when any army has made more efforts to reduce civilian casualties and deaths of innocent people than the IDF is doing today in Gaza".

Kemp has repeatedly stated this.

=======================

Also read this...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mitchell-bard/video-reveals-that-a-lack_b_156565.html

Hamas has more faith in the IDF than you do. Read why.
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parkia00 Donating Member (401 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. It's not about me having no faith in the IDF
It's about this talking head specifically and people like him. I know perfectly well the difficulties the IDF faces when fighting in an dense urban environment. This (my post) is not really about the IDF. This is about the ridiculous way in which some rabid supporters go about to try to justify, whitewash, conveniently overlook facts and even lie about the situation in an attempt to make Israel look like an innocent little girl scout where all problems are caused by others. These attempts to create and project an aura of innocence and goodly intentions in my opinion hurt Israel even more by isolating it and giving it a really stupid false sense of self. Like wearing a very obvious fake Rolex watch and showing off to people who know full well it's a fake. A roll your eyes moment if you may. This is the same behavior we find amongst Hamas and it's rabid supporters and it does them no good as well.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. If the IDF would shoot in that situation, Hamas would no longer keep using child shields.
Edited on Sun Apr-24-11 01:10 PM by shira
Think about it.

The tactic works because Hamas knows the IDF's general policy - not 100% of the time of course due to different circumstances/situations - is not to fire in that situation.

This is one reason why the IDF's civilians to combatants kill ratio is LOWER than NATO, the US, UK or any other modern military.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. actually....
Edited on Sun Apr-24-11 06:31 AM by pelsar
its the commander/pilot in the field that decides whether to fire or not.....for those few who are interested, the decisions, made in a few seconds or less or based on a multitude of factors, some of it military intelligence (never known for being 100%) bomb size, target size, time of day, target importance, IDF troops in the area (gazas borders), etc

Given that gaza is very densly populated and that hamas and friends mix in nicely with the population, and that explosions are uncontrolled "explosions"...civilian deaths will follow, there is no getting around that in a war in an urban area. (even ignoring hamas standard policy with regards to its own civilians)

but thats simply stating the obvious..... Eliezer knows better and shouldn't be "redefining words" (as i believe its called)
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