OK Folks its do or die time..........

[Twist_U_Up]

Give up your plane when confronted with this by a few skinny little guys

Or fight like hell and try to make it home to your loved ones ?

I also find it odd that whole planes just disappear but convenient items such as this lay around unscathed.
Rubbish

[The Lone Groover]

1. Well...

If it was a choice of die or face up to someone with one of those I know what I'd do. You may get cut a bit but you'd do it.

[MervinFerd]

2. This is in poor taste. Beyond disgusting. Have you no decency, sir?

The answer is:

If I've just seen a flight attendant's throat cut with the razor blade in that "little thing" and the "skinny little guy" is threatening to cut the throat of the second and all previous hijacking have wound up with a landing somewhere, then I sit in my seat and hope for the best.


"Have you no decency, sir?"

[The Lone Groover]

3. Well if the official story...

is to believed, then the passengers on one flight didn't just sit there and "hope for the best".

You have to go down fighting.

I don't see what decency has to do with it.

[MervinFerd]

7. "I don't see what decency has to do with it."

Evidently not.

The one plane was delayed; the passengers learned what was up and fought back.

"Have you no decency, sir?"

[Bolo Boffin]

5. Especially pre-9/11, when no civilian had cause to think anything other than hijacking.

I agree with you, Mervin. This is really disgusting.

[The Lone Groover]

6. But...

According to the official story - didn't the passengers on Flight 77 already know it was more than just a hijacking?

I don't see what is disgusting about it?

Do or die.

Its only box cutters, you'd do it, you would.

[MervinFerd]

8. Flight 77 was hijacked, same as the other planes.

Once the passengers learned what was up, they fought back.

Not before.


"Have you no decency, sir?"

[Rosa Luxemburg]

45. was it?

[Bolo Boffin]

9. It is a reprehensible marginalizing of what those passengers went through.

As Mervin has said, none of us were put in that situation obviously. To puff out your chest and say, "Of course I'd fight back," is the height of hubris.

The hijackers took command of the plane, and then shut themselves up in the cockpit. Nobody on board knew about the other planes until the hijackers had already locked the cabin door.

A particularly disgusting part of TTU's post is the reproduction of an actual boxcutter, recovered from Shanksville. Look at that thing, Groover. It's a lethal weapon, with weight and heft. That's not a thin letter opener, that's a well-designed tool, easy to grip, easy to keep hold of while slicing, and quite capable of slicing someone's throat open. It would also be a good defensive tool - the handle makes sure you can hold onto it while hacking at your victim.

And TTU blithely reposts that picture as if it were nothing in the world to face that down.

[truthpowertruth]

23. It's disgusting...

Because hyperbole is used to cover up the fact that they have no argument.

[Twist_U_Up]

24. Do you know what I find disgusting Merv.

That Ill post a well documented issue, ample with video testimony from dieing Heroes and you have not even the decency to chime in with at least a "yea thats fucked up" or "its just plain negligence". But no you (Ill be nice) folks would rather attack a post because you feel I stepped on your toes or am somehow disgracing the victims.
You disrupter's disgrace the victims everyday that you come here and throw useless name calling and smokescreens onto everything and anything that threatens your little fantasy called the OCT.
Stop wasting my time grow a fucking spine

[MervinFerd]

27. Carlos Castaneda: A Separate Reality, The Journeys of Don Juan

Ever read the Castenada Don Juan novels, or ethnographic reports?

You should.

[Twist_U_Up]

28. Heres some reading for you

"It is natural for man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts... For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth, to know the worst, and to provide for it.” Patrick Henry

[Contrite]

57. Mervin, it's supposedly evidence.

Have you never watched a murder documentary? Court TV? This kind of thing is shown all the time? Remember OJ's gloves?

[Anarcho-Socialist]

4. Of course

it is easy to beat your chest and self-congratulate about how you would have done it differently, but then neither you or I were in that situation.

[tenseconds]

10. possible m.o.

Take your belt off and start flailing.

[MervinFerd]

19. Actually, there are lots of ways to make a weapon.

Don't sit around thinking about it, myself, but clearly it would not be hard.

The -real- weapon these SOBs had was surprise. It would never work again, even if they had guns.

[petgoat]

20. Better yet, cut the seat belts. Flail a couple of those seat belt buckles

and you'd have something. Four passengers throwing seat belt buckles like stones.
Use blankets to restrain the hijackers.

[Bolo Boffin]

32. So if you had been on those planes...

...they wouldn't have been hijacked, huh?

It's too bad they didn't try to call you, petgoat, the man with all the answers.

[Bushwick Bill]

11. The thread may be in bad taste, but...

this mint condition bandana from Shanksville makes me go :eyes:

[Bolo Boffin]

15. That bandana has been altered.

It's been cut up and sewn back together into a long sash. The passengers reported one of the hijackers had what appeared to be a bomb attached with a long red sash. This is probably it. The sash could have been removed and discarded once the hijackers barricaded themselves into the cockpit, which would explain its lack of blood.

It's amazing how many of you go :eyes: in the face of those passengers' last moments. Have you no conscience?

[MervinFerd]

17. Hmmm? The NWO scripted the whole thing, so they made up an improbable..

story about box cutters as weapons, framed a bunch of Arab men living openly in the Middle East, and planted evidence that could not possibly have survived a plane crash.

Right.

[MervinFerd]

18. And, besides that, what' the point of planting 'evidence' that proves nothing?

It's a very common bandana. I have several just like it in a drawer. Sometimes I put one around the dog's neck. The dog does not like it. Dumb dog. Sometimes I even wear one myself--wet it in hot weather, it feels real good. Bit of a neckwarmer in the cold.

You think the NWO planted this thing at the crash site?

Why?

[Rosa Luxemburg]

46. you can fool some of the people most of the time

[Norrin Radd]

47. And the color raises questions:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=125&topic_id=105099&mesg_id=105365

[Taxloss]

12. They did fight back in one plane.

MIHOPers like to mock and belittle what happened on flight 93, for some reason, but they fought back.

[petgoat]

21. The passengers of 93 took back the cockpit, the CVR indicates.

Jim Hoffman says the debris field indicates the plane had turned around and was
heading west when it was shot down.

Probably headed back to Pittsburgh, IMHO.

[MervinFerd]

22. Wow. Just Wow! No other comment.

[Bolo Boffin]

30. The further and further you sink into this, petgoat...

...the worse a spectacle you become. Stay away from Scientology booths.

[petgoat]

34. Snarkiness is no substitute for facts

Here's from MSNBC:

“In the final moments of this struggle, according to the families who heard the tape, voices that seemed muffled and distant all of a sudden became clearer,” says Longman. “They took that as some corroboration that the passengers actually are in — perhaps crew — actually did reach the cockpit.”

(snip)
“Yes,” says Longman. “That’s the government theory, that they actually got inside. Near the end you hear — in English — words, ‘roll it up,’ and ‘lift it up,’ or ‘turn it up,’ or ‘pull it up.’ The families have taken that as a sign that they were — the passengers and perhaps crew — were trying to take control of the plane.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3080117/

Jim Hoffman's belief that the plane was headed west comes from the fact that the debris is
six miles east of the crash site.

[MervinFerd]

36. Does "Jim Hoffman" think the planes were actually hijacked?

That would be the relevant question, since I presume the point of the OP to be that they were not. Otherwise, it is just a nasty comment on the courage of the passengers and crew.

(One cannot be sure, since--in true Conspiracist fashion--only 'evidence' is given; the crime is never specified.)

And, truly, you do need to pull back from this shit. If you find Judy Wood, or this crap, even remotely credible, you are in deep doo.

[sabbat hunter]

13. if someone was holding it

if someone was holding that up to a persons throat with the blade out, a blade which can easily cut the juggular, i would be hesitant to do anything.

also in many plane crashes where there is little left, they find the oddest things unscathed. seats, luggage, a kids toy.

[rman]

14. There haven't been many plane crashes where there was as little left

of the plane as was the case with 9/11.

[vincent_vega_lives]

16. They also claimed they had a bomb

You gonna' risk that they are bluffing?

[greyl]

25. Every post of yours in this thread is below pathetic, too.

[Twist_U_Up]

26. Tell her to tell these guys too will you ?

Because I think that these guys are basically saying the same thing as I am.
911 was an Inside Job

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/core.html
Robert Balsamo
4000TT Commercial, Instrument, Multi, CFI II MEI
Corporate Chief Pilot
135 Capt
121 FO Independence Air/Atlantic Coast Airlines
King Air C-90/200, Dornier 328JET

Glen Stanish
15,000TT ATP
American Airlines, ATA, TWA, Continental
MD-80, 737

Jeff Latas
-Over 20 years in the USAF
--USAF Accident investigation Board President
--Flew the F-111, T38, and F-15E
--Combat experience in the F-15E includes Desert Storm and four tours of duty in Northern and Southern Watch
--Weapons Requirements Officer, USAG HQ, Pentagon
--Standard and Evaluations Flight Examiner, Command level
-Currently Captain for JetBlue Airways

Omar Pradhan
Flight Instructor USAF Academy
E-3 AWACS (B707) out of Tinker AFB, OK
Over 1400TT
350 combat over Afghanistan and Iraq

Ted Muga
Naval Aviator - Retired Commander, USNR
A/C experience - Grumman E-1 and E-2 ( Approx, 3800 hours )
Pan American World Airways - Retired Dec. 1991 ( that's when PanAM went bankrupt )
Flight Engineer/First Officer -- Boeing 707 & Boeing 727 ( approx. 7500 hours )

Col Robert Bowman
President of the Institute for Space and Security Studies
Executive Vice President of Millennium III Corporation
retired Presiding Archbishop of the United Catholic Church
101 combat missions in Vietnam
directed all the “Star Wars” programs under Presidents Ford and Carter
recipient of the Eisenhower Medal
George F. Kennan Peace Prize
President’s Medal of Veterans for Peace
Society of Military Engineers' ROTC Award of Merit (twice)
Six Air Medals
Ph.D. is in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering from Caltech
chaired 8 major international conferences
one of the country’s foremost experts on National Security
independent candidate for President of the US in 2000

John Panarelli
friend and fellow aviator of John Ogonowski - Capt. AA #11
ATP: L-300, B-737, DC-10, DC-8, FE, TT=approx. 11,000 hours
USAF-C141-IP, Eastern Metro, Braniff, Ryan International, Emery
Worldwide, Polar Air Cargo

Alfons Olszewski
Veterans For Truth
Vietnam Veteran
Aircraft Maintenance Crew Chief
MOS: 67V20
qualified on Cobras, Hueys, and Loch Helicopters

George Nelson
Colonel USAF (Ret.)
30 year career managing aircraft maintenance activities
Licensed commercial pilot
Licensed airframe and powerplant mechanic
Aircraft accident investigator

Larry Patriarca
USN Aviation Structural Mechanic
VAQ 135, EA-6B Squadron, 1983-86
Coordinator for Central Mass 9/11 Truth Alliance
Member of Veterans for 9/11 Truth
Associate Member of Scholars for 9/11 Truth

Mathias Frey
Switzerland
C340, C402
CPL/IR
ATPL “frozen”
500 hrs TT
5000+ hrs on ASTRAS, INTRAS and TOSIM, ATC Simulation
Assistant JAR OPS Transition Air Engiadina
Project Manager Air Alps Aviation

Jeff Dahlstrom
C-141 pilot in the early 70's during the Vietnam era:
2nd AF, 432nd MAWg, 18th Sq, MacGuire AFB, NJ.
Pilot training was class 70-06, at Laughlin AFB, Tx

Joe H. Ferguson
Retired Capt.
30,000TT
5,000 FE
USAF Ret.
T-6, T -28, B-25, B-29, KC-97
Frontier, Continental Airlines
DC - 3, CV 580, B737, MD80, DC10

Daniel Davis
Private Pilot
NORAD Staff Officer (ret.)
Extensive experience working with Tubine engines

"Steven"
Canada ATC (in training)

James Edward Forst
graduating from UND summa cum laude this December
degrees in Commercial Aviation and Aviation Management. CFI, CFII, and MEI 65% type CRJ

Gretchen Burnett-Simrall
Flight Attendant American Airlines
15 years
IOR
Co-worker of Betty Ong and Karen Martin

Hammish Brannan
Former United Kingdom air defense ground enviroment (UKADGE) RADAR technician
Primary and secondary ground radar systems
ATC & airborne systems (including radio) as an instructor for the Ministry of Defence (MOD)

Didier "Jay" Weenen
BAF retired
SIAI SF 260M, Potez Fouga Magister, BA/Do Alpha Jet,
F16A, C130H, C153, C172, C182, L45, various gliders

"Wes"
MD-88 American Airlines

Todd Kallenbach
10,000TT
ATP
Former Independence Air

"Jen"
Jennifer.
ATPL
5000TT
MU2 (close to 3000 hours on those)
Be10

Peter Rapp
Austria
PPL/IFR 950TT
Piper Turbo Arrow, PA32T Saratoga,
Cessna 172, Cessna 182T Garmin1000
Carry out business flights for clients and Co-Pi on Turbine Malibu and Beech90 Kingair.

Erin Myers
600TT
Private Pilot (single engine, land, VFR)
Cessna, Piper, Waco, Pitts, Citabria
R22s and a JetRanger.
Army Aviation 68G (maintenance and repair):
Blackhawk, Apache and OH58.
FAA A&P Mechanic
Experimental Aircraft Builder
1990 KitFox.Lanceair, Glassair, variety of Micro and Ultra lights.

Sean Dulac
Private Pilot
500TT

Kevin Smith
Sailplane pilot
Producer, Alex Jones Show
Inforwars.com

Rodger Herbst
777 and 787 Aeronautics
Flight Controls and Simulation Engineering

Jeff Beck
Commercial, Instrument

Joe Frascone
2500TT
ATP CFI II MEI AGI FEX

Craig Hill
Post Solo Student Pilot
Ran as 9/11 Truth candidate for US Senate for Vermont in 2004 and 2006.
Producer of "Treason Inc"
Founder of the Green Party of Vermont
Helped organize four 9/11 Truth candidates appearing on statewide ballot in Vermont in 2006
Appeared on many televised debates promoting 9/11awareness
Public Appearances -
-C-SPAN2, Called for the arrest and removal of Bush, Cheney and much of DC for treason
-Spoken on 9/11 panels and podiums in many venues around the country, from NYC on several occasions
-9/11 Boston Tea Party at historic Faneuil Hall
-The Alex Jones-organized 9/11 event in LA
-The 2006 event in Chicago
Currently organizing impeachment drives in Vt and around the country to
broaden 9/11 awareness and surreptitiously expose the perps in proposed
congressional hearings in 2007.

Fredrick W. Harvey
Student Pilot
Silver Star
Bronze Star
Three Purple Hearts
Two Tours in Vietnam


Eyewitness Experts
"Merc"
"Lyte Trip"

PR Contacts
Jeff Hill
www.pumpitout.com

Gideon Almy
University of Tennessee
B.A. Speech Communications

Researchers

Sofia a.k.a. "Smallstorm"
Writer, Director, Researcher
911 Mysteries Part 1: Demolitions

David Ray Griffin
Emeritus Professor of Philosophy of Religion & Theology
Claremont School of Theology & Claremont Graduate University
Author or editor of some 30 books
"The New Pearl Harbor"
"The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions"
"Christian Faith and the Truth Behind 9/11"
"The American Empire and the Commonwealth of God"
"9/11 and American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out"
Scholars For Truth, Full Member

Steven E. Jones, Ph.D.
Physics Professor (retired)
Ph.D. in Physics from Vanderbilt University
Chairperson of several international physics conferences
Research conducted at major laboratories in USA, Canada, United Kingdom and Japan
Over fifty peer-reviewed publications, including Nature, Scientific American and Physical Review Letters
Journal of 9/11 Studies - Focus on Goals
Why Indeed Did The World Trade Center Buildings Collapse

"UnderTow"
15 year Technology Expert

"Snowygrouch"
UK Researcher

Chris Schubert
10 year IT-Professional & Database Administrator
Research and Translation
Developing German translation site of pilotsfor911truth.org

"e-dog"

Garry Gilbert

Andrea Lea




http://www.911independentcommission.org/members.html
Carol Ashley, mother of Janice Ashley, 25
Fred Alger Management, 93rd floor, WTC Tower One
Hometown: Rockville Centre, NY
Member: Skyscraper Safety Campaign, Voices of September 11th,


Kristen Breitweiser, wife of Ronald Breitweiser, 39
Fiduciary Trust International, WTC Tower Two
Hometown: Middletown Township, NJ
Co-Chair, September 11th Advocates


Patty Casazza, wife of John F. Casazza, 38
Cantor Fitzgerald, 104th floor, WTC Tower One
Hometown: Colts Neck, NJ
Co-Chair, September 11th Advocates


Beverly Eckert, wife of Sean Rooney
Aon, WTC Tower Two
Hometown: Stamford, CT
Member: Skyscraper Safety Campaign, Coalition of 9/11 Families,
Families of September 11th, Fix the Fund, 9/11 Families for a Secure America,
9/11 Families for Peaceful Tomorrows, 9/11 Families to Bankrupt Terrorism


Mary Fetchet, mother of Bradley James Fetchet, 24
Keefe, Bruyette & Woods, 89th floor, WTC Tower Two
Hometown: New Canaan, CT
Chair, Voices of September 11th
Member: Skyscraper Safety Campaign, Coalition of 9/11 Families,
LMDC Families Advisory Council


Monica Gabrielle , wife of Richard Gabrielle
Aon, WTC Tower Two
Hometown: Manhattan, NY and CT
Co-Chair, Skyscraper Safety Campaign


Bill Harvey, husband of Sara Manley Harvey, 31
Fred Alger Management, 93rd floor, WTC Tower One
Hometown: Manhattan, NY
Member: Voices of September 11th


Mindy Kleinberg, wife of Alan Kleinberg, 39
Cantor Fitzgerald, 104th floor, WTC Tower One
Hometown: East Brunswick, NJ
Co-Chair, September 11th Advocates


Carie Lemack, daughter of Judy Larocque
Market Perspectives; passenger, American Airlines Flight 11
Hometown: Cambridge, MA
Co-Founder and Vice-President, Families of September 11th


Sally Regenhard, mother of Christian Michael Otto Regenhard, 28
Probationary Firefighter, L131, Red Hook, missing at WTC
Hometown: Bronx, NY
Founder and Chairperson, Skyscraper Safety Campaign
Member: Coalition of 9/11 Families, 9/11 Families for a Secure America,
LMDC Families Advisory Council


Lorie Van Auken, wife of Kenneth Van Auken, 47
Cantor Fitzgerald, 105th floor, WTC Tower One
Hometown: East Brunswick, NJ
Co-Chair, September 11th Advocates


Robin Wiener, sister of Jeffrey Wiener, 33
Marsh Risk Technologies, 96th floor, WTC Tower One
Hometown: Washington, D.C.
Board Member, Families of September 11th
Member: Voices of September 11, Give Your Voice,
WTC United Family Group

[MervinFerd]

29. Have you no shame? Have you no sense of decency, sir?

We are talking about real live people who died a horrible and terrifying death; you haul out a list of people who supposedly subscribe to nutcase theories.

Have you no sense, either?

[Twist_U_Up]

33. Ha You crack me up !

[Twist_U_Up]

38. Yea this lady is Crazy too. Stone Cold Crazy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EymYwYc43iE&mode=related&search=

[greyl]

73. She died in a fire last December.

www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x127048

[MervinFerd]

31. Some months ago, there was a post listing the dead of one of the flights,

with brief biographical sketches of each. By someone who was friends of one of the flight attendants.

A very powerful refutation of the "no hijacking" insanity.

[petgoat]

35. Huh? You've made a logical leap.

There's some connection between the biographies of passengers
and proof of hijackers?

How's that work? The biography ended "killed by hijackers"?

[MervinFerd]

37. You do really need to pull back a while, Mr. Goat.

The point of the biographies is that these were real, alive, active human beings with families and careers and hobbies and all the other things that make human beings important.

They --were not-- the product of the imagination of some NWO disinformation operation. They were -not- government operatives who boarded planes and got off in Pittsburgh.

-Real people- died in those planes and it is not very nice to play idiotic games with their deaths.

[petgoat]

39. OK, I see. There is no connection between the biographies and

the claims of hijackers. Thanks for making that clear.

[MervinFerd]

40. You do need to get away from this, Mr. Goat.

The fact of the hijackings is not legitimately in question. The biographies illustrate the boorish ugliness of the people who seek fame and fortune by spreading lies about this event.

[petgoat]

41. "The fact of the hijackings is not legitimately in question."

I see. How long have you been holding this belief, and upon what evidence is
it based?

[MervinFerd]

42. "upon what evidence is it based?" You are being ridiculous again, Mr Goat.

You -really- need to get away from this stuff more.

Have I recently asked you to prove the Earth is round? On what evidence do you base this belief?

What about today's date? Do you have ----ANY---- evidence that Today is Thursday?

Didn't think so.

Now, run along.

[petgoat]

43. Ah, it's an article of faith. You don't need no stinking evidence.

Thanks for setting us straight on that.

You should watch Dr. David Ray Griffin's address about the status of the 9/11
story as a quasi-religious story. Quite illuminating.

transcript: http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2006/911-Myth-Reality-Griffin30mar06.htm

video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-275577066688213413


Do I have evidence that it is Thursday? The newspaper on the doorstep says "Thursday."
It's the same as the neighbor's newspaper, and a calendar shows that yesterday, Valentine's
Day, was Wednesday.

So yes, I have evidence that it's thursday.

[MervinFerd]

44. No, its an informed opinion.

And, I will leave Dr. Griffin's film for you to watch.

[petgoat]

48. It's an informed opinion for which you refuse to provide evidence.

Thank you for demonstrating your epistemological acumen for us.

[MervinFerd]

49. Evidence of hijackings? Dear God, man, where have you been?

Under a rock?

Can -you- provide evidence today is Friday? Prove Gerald Ford is really dead? Jiminy Freaking Cricket.

I -will not- play this juvenile game of providing evidence of things that are proved beyond reasonable doubt.

Run along now.

[petgoat]

50. OK, I'll go along with you. The planes were hijacked.

But we don't know who did it. We don't even know if the
alleged hijackers were on board. After all, six of them
have turned up alive.

[Bolo Boffin]

51. We do know the hijackers were on board.

The passengers of 93 reported the hijackers in their phone calls.

None of the 9/11 hijackers have turned up alive. None of them. The hijackers all died on their planes. Confusions of identity based on similar names or even identity theft have turned up. But all the hijackers are dead. It is grossly disingenuous of you to claim otherwise.

[petgoat]

52. Waleed al Shehri died on Flight 11?

BBC says different.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1559151.stm

[Bolo Boffin]

54. The 19 hijackers died on September 11th.

Pointing to mistaken identity cases or stolen identity cases and saying that six hijackers are still alive is stupid, petgoat.

Quit posting stupidity.

[MervinFerd]

55. Note the Date! -- 23 September, 2001--- 12 days after 9/11/2001

The man was listed as a 'suspect' 12 days after the event. Obviously, he was not one of the hijackers.

The thing that -would- have been suspicious would have been getting all the hijackers names -correct- at that early date.


Gimmmeeeee a break.

[Bolo Boffin]

56. BTW, petgoat, the BBC editors have linked to a correction of that article

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2006/10/911_conspiracy_theory_1.html

The story has been cited ever since by some as evidence that the 9/11 attacks were part of a US government conspiracy.

We later reported on the list of hijackers, thereby superseding the earlier report. In the intervening years we have also reported in detail on the investigation into the attacks, the 9/11 commission and its report.

We’ve carried the full report, executive summary and main findings and, as part of the recent fifth anniversary coverage, a detailed guide to what’s known about what happened on the day. But conspiracy theories have persisted. The confusion over names and identities we reported back in 2001 may have arisen because these were common Arabic and Islamic names.

You may want to stop providing the link to your story, if you want to keep hawking that silly meme. The truth is undercutting your beliefs.

[petgoat]

59. You may want to quit misconstruing what BBC said.

They did not retract the story. They changed the caption to a photo.

The fact remains, Waleed al Shehri objected to his picture being plastered
all over the world as one of the hijackers, because he wasn't.

[Bolo Boffin]

60. Bwa!

I don't understand this masochistic thing you have going on here, petgoat. You post a link that contains another link completely refuting what you said. That second link contains a link to this story --

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1581063.stm

-- which the BBC says "supercedes" your often-used story. They kept the original story intact as a record, not because they still agree with everything it says.

The fact remains, if you were being honest about presenting the facts, is this:

Waleed M Alshehri, believed to be from Saudi Arabia, has used birth dates from 1974 to 1979 on various documents. Immediately after the attacks, he was identified as a Saudi commercial pilot who graduated in 1997 from Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in Daytona Beach. But school officials said the FBI told them they had found the Waleed Alshehri who graduated from their school alive in Morocco.

This identification may be of the wrong person, but somebody got onto that plane using Waleed M Alshehri's documentation and participated in the hijacking of Flight 11. That person is now dead. It is false to say that six of the hijackers are alive. They are one and all dead.

[petgoat]

61. "This identification may be of the wrong person" My point exactly.

The FBI work was sloppy, the 9/11 Commission work was sloppy,
the History Channel work was sloppy. They have no idea who
was on those planes. But they're still pretending they do.

That's the point.

Nobody's claiming the hijackers parachuted out of the planes
and journeyed to Morocco to complain that they weren't dead.

[MervinFerd]

62. Good Grief, Mr. Goat. Please stop being obtuse! Please.

We -were- making progress there for a while.

The FBI ----TWO WEEKS--- after 911 issued a list of ------SUSPECT------- hijackers.

----------------SUSPECTS----------------

The ones who are still alive were deleted from the list of suspects. Even the FBI is not dumb enough to suspect live people of crashing jetliners.

The FBI very well may be sloppy. But, this particular little Conspiracist Urban Myth does not prove that. It does not prove anything.

[petgoat]

65. "The ones who are still alive were deleted from the list of suspects."

Got link for that, or are you just making up your facts?

The original list is what's in the 9/11 Commission Report.
Waleed al Shehri's picture is in the 9/11 Commission Report
even though he came forward two weeks after 9/11 to say he
was alive.

Don't you guys know anything?

[Bolo Boffin]

64. That wasn't your point in #50.

But we don't know who did it. We don't even know if the
alleged hijackers were on board. After all, six of them
have turned up alive.

19 hijackers boarded those planes and presented these 19 identities. Some were actual, some were stolen.

But none of the hijackers are alive.

[petgoat]

66. Six of the alleged hijackers are alive. nt

[Bolo Boffin]

67. Bullshit. n/t

[MervinFerd]

68. Bullshit.

Mr. Goat, --please-- stop with the obtuse act.

If there reliable documentation that 6 persons on the -current-, -final- FBI list of hijackers is alive,

WOULD THE FBI BE SO FUCKING DUMB-ASS STUPID AS TO NOT REVISE THE LIST?

This is a Conspiracist Urban Legend (CUL). It disintegrates on contact with facts.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Contrite]

58. Why are you always telling people to run along?

They don't do it, anyway, so why be so dismissive?

[MervinFerd]

63. "Run along" is appropriate response to certain persons.

Now, run along.

[Contrite]

69. What a surprise.

Now, how did I know you'd say that?

[FormerOstrich]

70. I never have nor never will believe the utility knife theory...

"a blade which can easily cut the jugular"

I'm not certain they can easily cut a jugular. If they can only one. Years before 2001 I frequently commented that I thought those blades were made to dull on first use. I haven't changed my opinion since then. Changing blades in the middle of a hijacking would be most inconvenient.

Not to mention that there really is very little exposed blade. You couldn't do much damage stabbing with them. The break-away blades do just that...break away when you don't want them to.

Hopefully we will never know but I think if someone is going to hijack a plane I'm on, they best having something more than a box cutter to do it if they wish to be successful.

[Bolo Boffin]

71. "made to dull on first use" - WTF?

Why don't you go buy a similar boxcutter and see how quickly it dulls?

I worked in a warehouse right out of college. A boxcutter that had to have the blade changed every time you used it would be useless in an industrial environment, and the boxcutters we used were nowhere near as strongly and well designed (check the ergonomic handle) as that knife in the OP. And a knife of the quality above wouldn't be using breakaway blades, as if you've had the slightest bit of experience with them.

How anyone can hold themselves up over the passengers that day and say that a plane he or she was on wouldn't have been hijacked with boxcutters is beyond me. How you can dare compare yourself to those people that day is monstrously offensive.

[Violet_Crumble]

72. Would you say the same thing to survivors of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 961?

How anyone can hold themselves up over the passengers that day and say that a plane he or she was on wouldn't have been hijacked with boxcutters is beyond me. How you can dare compare yourself to those people that day is monstrously offensive.

Like it or not, it's human nature to look at something in hindsight and say what they would or wouldn't have done, and all the manufactured outrage in this thread is kind of silly, imo. Would you tell the survivors of Flight 961, which was hijacked and subsequently crashed (there's an episode about in on Air Crash Investigations aka Mayday that covers this and the mindset of passengers who find themselves suddenly thrust into a hijacking situation), that their looking back in hindsight and saying what they would have done differently to save the plane and many lives on it to be monstrously offensive? Of course not, because that flight's hijacking doesn't carry any political ammunition for anyone's agenda when arguing on DU...

Having said that, I'm wondering why so much energy in this thread is invested in insulting other posters rather than just pointing out the damn obvious. The hijackers could have been unarmed and still succeeded in flying the planes into their targets because even a mere threat will keep most passengers quiet. That episode of that show I was talking about at the start of my post covers some of what happens to passengers, and in most situations (at least until after Sept.11) verbal and physical aggressiveness from hijackers was enough to keep passengers cowed and in fear. From the second a passenger boards a flight, they're being told what to do by the crew, and suddenly they're in a situation where the crew can't tell them what to do, but a bunch of hijackers is doing it instead and in a very aggressive manner. Passengers generally can't all form a huddle and work out a strategy for rushing the hijackers, and anyone who would be thinking of resisting isn't sure that anyone will follow their lead if they start. And the self-preservation instinct is very powerful. After all, who wants to make a failed and possibly single-handed attempt to overpower the hijackers and make themselves a target for the hijackers? The reason people did resist on that last flight on Sept.11 that ended up crashing was only because they were hearing the fate of the other hijacked flights and knew what would happen to them if they didn't do anything. That's why before Sept.11 it's hard to think of many hijacked planes where the crew or passengers fought back (one exception is a FedEx plane that was hijacked by a disgruntled employee - another episode of Air Crash Investigations/Mayday is about that), but after Sept.11 and the realisation that hijackers tactics have been changed by the events that day, it'd be much more likely now that passengers on any hijacked flight will fight back...

[Bolo Boffin]

76. This person is mocking the victims of 9/11.

It is lower than low to do so. It's quite certain that people were ambushed on those plane - a stewardess walking along the aisle suddenly finds her carotid artery spraying blood all over first class. I'm sorry to be graphic but this is what happened on those flights.

Hey, Ostrich, you think a boxcutter could pull that off, with all your experience with them? Are you really comparing cutting through shingles to cutting through flesh? How many people might be staying in their seats after that little display, you poster of liars and mockery of people much, much better than you?

[treestar]

79. Oh for crimeny's sake

Using the victims is just emotional.

It is pure anti-thinking Bullshit.

Oh, you're so offended. Well, you weren't there either. If you insist on making it about the victims personally, how do you know you'd have been so paralyzed with fear you'd have done nothing? Or so certain that the plane was being simply hijacked? Some people have the fighting spirit not to just sit there even if they think it is just a simple hijacking. If there were no such people on the plane, so be it. It doesn't mean we don't pity those who were on it.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bolo Boffin]

81. So Ostrich can "use the victims", but I can't (and I'm not)?

What is "using the victims" --

Honoring their sacrifices and taking their last words seriously?

Or boasting and bragging about how someone could have been so much more stronger than they?

Yes, we do pity the people on those planes. We pity them and we grieve for them and we honor their memories because they just as easily could have been us.

That is not anti-thinking bullshit. That is an admonition for people to actually think about what it is they are saying.

[FormerOstrich]

74. Be offended if you wish....

"How you can dare compare yourself to those people that day is monstrously offensive."

I am not comparing myself to the passengers on those planes because I don't think for one minute...not one...that those planes were hijacked by individuals that had no other weapon than a utility knife. Personally, I think it's highly offensive that we are expected to believe such. The victims are being dishonored and it's not me doing it.

I do happen to have a lot of experience with utility knives. Industrial grade utility knives. While one time use is a dramatic representation I stand by my assertion that the blades quickly dull. If you use them for any length of time besides cutting cardboard (and even then) you will quickly find yourself sawing at stuff instead of slicing it. Try cutting a few shingle ends with one. See how often you change the blade. Or, rubber tubing. Or, landscape plastic. Try a few objects before going off on me (besides the memory of a menial job of years past).

Exactly why do you believe that there were no other weapons?

On edit:

btw....while I can't be certain by the image the utility knife in the picture looks like one that DOES use either break away or snap in cartdridge blades. I think it appears that one uses a narrow blade which is even more prone to breaking the blade off (which is something that I didn't even bring up)

[Bolo Boffin]

75. The VICTIMS were the ones reporting the boxcutters and knives!!

How are you not dishonoring the victims when THEY WERE THE ONES SAYING THAT THE KNIVES WERE ON THE PLANE???

You are calling them liars, and saying that if you'd been on the plane, nobody with a boxcutter would have taken them over - it's monstrous what you are saying! You are doing nothing BUT dishonoring the victims.

Do you have any control over how foul your posts can get?

[FormerOstrich]

77. Whatever....

I didn't call anyone a liar. I didn't say utility knives were not on the planes. wtf? Aside from attacking me do you even have a point?

I stated my opinion on what the official story line regarding one detail of the hijackings. One small aspect. That opinion does not demean, dishonor, or contain any judgment with regard to what happened to the victims of September 11th.

What does demean and dishonor the victims is there has been no investigation. The official explanations are seemingly not plausible? Therein lies the problem.

Your ragging at me is not productive and certainly not called for.

[MervinFerd]

78. Whatever. You state firm opinions that have no basis in fact.

And you refuse to listen to facts when they are presented.

To be entirely clear:
1. Box cutters are industrial tools not made to "dull on first use" and they certainly would not dull cutting a flight attendant's throat.
2. Even if they were dull, did the other passengers know that?
3. Do you think investigators are so dull as to assert that a harmless device was used in the hijackings; perhaps -your- understanding of the tool used is imprecise.
4. The Conspiracy Hobby Industry bases vast complex conspiracies on tiny discrepancies in official (or unofficial) accounts. Perhaps you are not doing this, but you are suspect.
5. This detail of the account may very well be inaccurate; it does not matter.

Run along now.

[Lithos]

82. Locking

What little value was possibly available has long since passed. Guys, it's easy to play armchair quarterback after the game, but please have a bit more sensitivity for topics like this.

Lithos
DU Moderator