UA 93: "It doesn't smell like jet fuel"

[Andre II]

"We (were) literally surrounded by debris, and there's a very strong odor of scorched earth," Parsons reported. "It doesn't smell like jet fuel, it smells like ... How do you describe it? Burned earth. It smells like burned earth."
http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/956356/detail.html

Well, why doesn't it smell on 911 at the crash site like jet fuel?
Does anybody have any witness of the day itself that smelled jet fuel?

[KJF]

1. This is pointless

04:28:11 TERRY SCHAFER, SHANKSVILLE FIRE CHIEF
It's a smell that you'll never forget, a smell of jet fuel, burnt flesh.
http://s3.amazonaws.com/911timeline/2002/abcnews091102.html

A few weeks ago, Wallace Miller, coroner of Somerset County, walked around the perimeter of this area with a local landowner. He can remember his first time there, at 10.45am on Tuesday, September 11: the stench of jet fuel, puddled on the ground, the smell of the burnt trees and grass and the silence of nature.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/09/10/1031608245087.html

The truth cannot be found by cherry-picking.

btw, your witness is "literally surrounded by debris".

[Andre II]

2. self delete

dupe

[Andre II]

3. Cherry-pick yourself

Thanks for accusing me of cherry-picking...

I'm interested in eyewitnesses that reported that on 911 or 912 not one year later (as both witnesses you quote). Do you have any quote of Wallace Miller right after 911 stating the same thing?

If you watch this movie with the reporter I've qouted above (start around 2:55)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tg77n3ckHGI

you'll see that he and the cameraman agree that it doesn't smell like jet fuel.
This is an important statement and no cherry-picking. If you have one or two witnesses stating the opposite let's see...

By the way:
Yes, the witness is surrounded by debris. But he states they are all unidentifiable.
My question still stands: Do you have any witness seeing anything bigger than a phone book in the accounts of 911 or 912?

Sorry, but accounts right after the event tend to be more truthful then one year later after having heard over and over in the news what is supposed to have happened.

[KJF]

4. They can't smell the jet fuel...

... because there're in the wood, not by the crater where the jet fuel was.
Also, note how he says he's surrounded by debris.

If you don't like the quotes I posted previously, here's another one:
"My visit to the property is nearly a month after the crash, but there are ever-present reminders of the horrible event that destroyed the lives of 40 innocent people and the innocence of millions. The smell of jet fuel fills my nostrils. Everywhere I look, tiny pieces of debris cover the soft dirt."
http://www.centralpa.org/archives/01nov3groundzero.html

Again, debris all over the place.

[Andre II]

5. Can we agree on one thing

I NEVER doubted there are thousands of little small pieces.
I still have to find one source that anything bigger than a phone book, anything identifiable was found the day of 911 itself.

So, what you're saying is that a witness can smell jet fuel one month after the crash but not in the wood that is right behind the crash site?

[KJF]

6. My understanding is that...

... the wood is to the right (east) of the crash site - although it's hard to tell exactly where they are from the video footage.

Witnesses report many smells, including jet fuel and burned earth and trees. It is reasonable to assume that the smell of burned trees/earth would be relatively stronger in the wood, especially given the photos of the clearly burned trees.

When was the video that you linked to made? At least one of the pieces in that was identified.

[Bryan Sacks]

7. Andre

Are you open-minded? Will you accept virtually incontrovertible evidence that a plane hit in Shanksville if it is presented to you? Will you seek it out as diligently as you seek out information counter to the official story?

I suggest you give Wallace Miller a call. I did with some friends of mine, because we suspected the story surrounding Flight 93 was bullshit. We asked Miller if we could come speak to him with a camera crew. He sat for an interview (30-45 minutes or so).

He is convinced that a plane hit down, Andre. He is a coroner, remember, and there were copious amounts of human remains sprayed all over the woods where the bodies hit. The "not a single drop of blood" comment certainly didn't mean to him that there were no dead people.

We also spoke with the man whose house was just a 100-150 yards from the crash site. This was in 2004, keep in mind. There were STILL pieces of airplane (Small pieces, yes) all over his property. We dug for them and found several - one piece was as big as my open fist (the largest piece we found, but we only looked for a few moments).

He said if we really wanted look more carefully, we might still find some human remains. They had been splattered all over his property, including on the roof of his house. We decided not to keep looking.

I have his name but he's a private citizen and I won't divulge it. But you could go to Shanksville today and find it out in 10 minutes, I presume.

We spoke also with the second and third person on the scene -two regular guys. The plane screamed over their heads seconds before impact. Then they ran (or drove, I don;t recall) to where the plane hit (just over a hill), and spent the next several hours there. Obviously, they have no doubt a plane hit.

The documentary to which you posted a link took a cherry-picked quote from former mayor Ernie Stull, and out of context it made it sound like ol' Ernie also didn't believe a plane hit. But that's nonsense. We spoke with Ernie too. He not only believes a plane hit, but that it was brought down along the lines of the official story. He has a friend who swears it was a missile, but Ernie didn't agree with him.

In light of this evidence, and a ton more I haven't posted but is widely available, there is no good reason for believing a plane did not crash in Shanksville.

I suggest that if you really are interested in the question, that you take a trip there and talk to some of the people who witnesses the events of that day and let the evidence take you where it will.

Of course, none of this suggests that there are not PLENTY of good reasons for suspecting the government of complicity in the attacks. There are. But this is just not one of them.

[KJF]

8. Good post, thanks (n/t)

[Andre II]

14. Brian

I've never doubted that there is lots of debris. So talking to a neighbor (whose accounts btw I know from the media) is no evidence.
I've never doubted that a plane was seeing by many eyewitnesses vanishing behind a treeline so talking to witnesses from Shanksville is no evidence.
I've never doubted Wallace Miller believes a plane crashed there but it is his believe no evidence.
Btw he had to look for one hour before seeing the first sign of human remains.
Certainly I do have 22 questions to him:
http://wingtv.net/thorn2006/wallymiller.html

Unfortunately Wallace Miller didn't want to talk to Wing TV.

I've other questions:

How many people actually saw the crash?
How many people actually saw anything on September 11 that they identified as being part of an airplane?
How many people actually saw human remains on September 11?
(And please I'm only interested in eyewitness' accounts from that and the following day not months or years later when everybody knew what the official version was).

How big did the eyewitnesses estimate the crater?
Why was there no more fire (best combustibles around money can buy)?
Where did the plane that crashed came from (northwest as witnessed by many or east over Indian Lake as witnessed by some)?
How is the raining debris over Indian Lake and New Baltimore explained (eyewitnesses stringly contradict the wind theory)
At what angle did the plane crash (keep in mind it was seeing flying almost horizontally when vanishing behind the trees and at an altitude of treetop or max a few hundred feet.

Well, there are many more questions.
Yes, I'd be interested going down to Shanksville but I live far far away.

[DoYouEverWonder]

20. Do you have a link or transcript for the interview

and did you take any pictures of the debris?

Thanks.

[rman]

10. so, there are contradicting eyewitness reports

again

[Bryan Sacks]

11. I'm not aware of not conflicting reports

by those who were present on the ground about evidence of a plane crash. The record is unequivocal.

Who among the first on the scene voiced actual doubt that a plane had hit?

[rman]

12. "Is there a plane in there?"

Flight 93 (A&E)
www.aetv.com/flight_93/f93_preview.jsp

www.loosechange911.com/flight93.mov

"Flight 93" contains a scene describing how they have trouble finding a plane at the crash site:


"Is there a plane in there?"

"We don't know yet..."

"What do you mean?"

"...we're still looking for it...at first we thought it was in the hole, but there's nothing in there..."

"It must have landed in the woods, we haven't found it yet.."

"We're talking about a 757, here...it's a huge plane..."

"Yea, we know...you can help us look for it if you want..."

[Andre II]

13. Doubts

Well, let's put it this way: They were all surprised that there was a plane somewhere in there:
“If they hadn’t told us a plane had wrecked, you wouldn’t have known. It looked like it hit and disintegrated,” Delano said.
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/s_12942.html

"It didn't look like a plane crash because there was nothing that looked like a plane …. Just like a big pile of charcoal,” Barron said.
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010912somerscenenat4p3.asp

John Walsh: "When I got there, the plane was obliterated. You couldn't see the cockpit or the wings or nothing."
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010912somerscenenat4p3.asp

Lee Purbaugh: “There was nothing there. Everything was shredded.”
(Among the Heroes, 299)

Nick Tweardy : “You couldn’t see nothing,” said Nick Tweardy, 20, of Stonycreek Township. “We couldn’t tell what we were looking at. There’s just a huge crater in the woods.”
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/s_12940.html

Nina Lensbouer: "But I got there and there was nothing, nothing there but charcoal. Instantly, it was charcoal."
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010912somerscenenat4p3.asp

And also officials state the same:
"We haven't seen anything bigger than a phone book, certainly nothing that would resemble a part of a plane," said Capt. Frank Monaco of the Pennsylvania State Police.
(Cox News Service, 9/12/01 b)

Lyle Szupinka, State Police Major : "If you were to go down there, you wouldn't know that was a plane crash”.
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010912somerscenenat4p3.asp

There are also further similar accounts in the video link I've posted above.

Do you have any eyewitness who wasn't wondering where the plane was?
And please, I'm only interested in eyewitness of the day itself or September 12 not three years later.

[Bryan Sacks]

15. not one of these people believe that a plane did not hit down

They are all surprised there is not more visible plane parts, but so what? Which one of them knows what to expect at an unprecedented event? After being at the scene, which one still believes there's no plane?

Don't take quotes out of context. Show me a single article where someone actually advances a claim that a plane did not hit the ground there. None of these people are doing that.

As I said, I personally interviewed the second and thrid persons on the scene. They saw the plane go overhead, and heard it crash seconds later over a hill. When they arrived, they were thousands and thousands of unopened letters - they found it bizarre that the letters could survive but no much of the plane. The said there was a veritable sea of letters. Strange, yes. But not a detail to be made up.

You are missing the fact that there was a great deal of plane found. There were human remains found on a person's property who was living there at the time! There was a half-ton piece of engine in a draining pond a few hundred yards away. And here's some other stuff from those articles you didn't post:

Terry Butler: "It dropped out of the clouds," too low for a commercial flight, Butler said. The plane rose slightly, trying to gain altitude, then "it just went flip to the right and then straight down."

Jeff Phillips: "There was one part of a seat burning up there," Phillips said. "That was something you could recognize."

Or: "I heard it for 10 or 15 seconds and it sounded like it was going full bore," said Tim Lensbouer, 35, Purbaugh's coworker.

The ground shook and the air thundered as the jetliner slammed into the ground about 300 yards away, Purbaugh said.

To consider what you are suggesting, you have to accept that the plane disappeared in midair before hitting the ground - JUST before hitting the ground.

[Andre II]

18. Out of context

Nowhere did I claim that eyewitnesses stated that no plane crashed there (moreover I wouldn't consider this as evidence. The same I don't consider Wallace Millerr's opinion as evidence).
But let's make one thing clear we can't point to the eyewitnesses and say that their statements prove a plane crashed there. All their accounts leave the doubt.

Human remains:
Wallace Miller needed a whole hour to find any trace of human remains (repeat "trace of human remains"). I've found only one eyewitness who saw anything on 911 that was a human remain. So there was extremely little.

The engine was found two days later.

Terry Butler was in Stoystown so not exactly at the crash site and he didn't see the crash. I didn't doubt there was a low flying plane. So your quote adds nothing.

"The part of a seat" is the only recognizable thing found that day. Was it from a plane or the nearby graveyard of cars?

Tim Lensbouer is a special candidate he only heard the plane (saw what does he prove?). Why doesn't he describe neither the crash (although he worked exactlt at the crash site) nor the crash site itself.

Purbaugh changed his story (see the DU thread) all his first accounts strongly imply he didn't see the crash.

To consider what I'm suggesting a faked crash site and a plane simply continuing to fly after vanishing behind the treeline is a possibility. Is it likely? I don't know.

But now you tell me:
From where did the plane come from? Northwest as seen by many (as Terry Butler) or from east as witnessed from people at the Indian Lake Marina and Jim Stop?

At what angle did the plane crash and which altitude does this angle require given that witnesses describe the plane basically flying horizontally over the trees?

[petgoat]

9. The book "True Lies" has a chapter about a trip to Shanksville

As I recall, they reported that there was no jet fuel in the ground
at the crash site.

[Kailassa]

16. One of the most interesting aspects of the story,

is the way certain peoples' stories have changed over time
to hide the incriminating facts, or lack of.

[mirandapriestly]

17. Why is this crash so different?

There is a page of nothing but hundreds of plane crashes; Pentagon Research has the link, and all of them have identifiable wreckage at the location of the impact. You can ses the fuselage, even the wings and tail. There was a plane crash over on the Olympic Peninsula near where I live 50 years ago and some hikers climbed up the mountain where it crashed and took pictures. The plane was all in large pieces , the bodies were intact,(they weren't still there, I mean at the time of the crash) I think there was even a survivor. Maybe that flight was not going as fast, but many plane crashes are and I am not aware of any where there are body parts and miniscule pieces of plane scattered for miles with no identifiable parts at the scene.
Someone has a theory at another forum that another plane dropped parts and I don't think that is so ridiculous. They didn't want to chance anyone being identifiable, IMO.

Andre, your post is not pointless.

[Andre II]

19. Kick

in view of new discussion of the jet fuel.