'Frontline', * and the 'Sinners Prayer'

[truthpusher]

Watching the Frontline program tonight, I find it very interesting that the work ethic, sincerity, authenticity and overall greatness that Kerry is shown to have compared to Bush, can all be wiped out in an instant, in the eyes of some just because George Bush has said the 'Sinners Prayer'.

I am very familiar with and have grown up in the evangelical born again community. Everything in this community hinges on the 'sinners prayer'. If you have NOT said the prayer, everything that comes from you is blind, pitifully and pointless. Once you say the prayer you are part of one voice, the only voice. Flash this badge to another 'Born Again' and you are instantly safe and everything that you say must be part of the common cause, to get more souls for Christ; in essence, get more people to say the sinners prayer and work toward the eventual Rapture and the second coming of Jesus.

Watching the Frontline Program I am convinced that these folks and the extremity of their allowance of George Bush is pure insanity.

Bush stands for most of what Christ was NOT and still all that Bush does is accepted because he has said the 'Sinners Prayer'.

I find it sad watching the Born Again Christians learning a tough lesson by supporting Bush. They will soon find out wholly that George Bush is about as far from Christ as they can get. The lesson that the Evangelicals are about to learn is 'The Sinners Prayer is meaningless if it is not backed up by works and accountability.

This election has proved to me the Powerful strength that is gained through a common bond such as the one shared by the evangelical Christians. A bond strong enough to allow George Bush to be there Representative.

As I finished writing this I see George Bush on Frontline explaining why he is about to Exterminate Karla Fay Tucker.

[Ilsa]

1. Yeah, too bad they didn't show him mocking her,

as if she would plead for mercy from a pig like him. He mocked her, carried out her death sentence, and never thought twice about whether this was the right decision. I slept poorly that night because she was on my mind, but I bet he slept just fine after a day of killing.

How do people know whether Kerry has or has not said the "Sinner's Prayer"? It's a very personal thing to do, and not everyone likes to speak openly about their personal religious beliefs.

[LittleClarkie]

20. Oh well, everyone knows Catholics don't count

Sometimes I find literature where someone says they saved a person from Catholicism idolatry.

I used to let these people govern whether or not I thought I was a good Christian. Why can't I have that kind of faith, I wondered. What's the matter with me, I asked.

But I'm feeling MUCH better now. I'm a happy little camper with my liberal Lutherans.

As for Kerry, nobody cuts him any slack. They assume he's a fake Catholic just because he's a Senator from Massachusetts and a Kennedy wannabe. It seems to go deeper than that from what I can tell. You will know them by their fruits, it is said.

Also, one should be on the lookout for false prophets. Ahem. Nuff said?

[regnaD kciN]

38. What I find funny/ironic...

...is that fundies generally dismiss Roman Catholics because they supposedly practice "works righteousness." In other words, Roman Catholics supposedly don't believe in "justification by faith alone," but by one's actions (generally reduced in fundie propaganda to attending Mass, going to confession, and other purely liturgical activity). This, according to the fundies, is wrong, because it assumes that you can "earn" salvation by your own efforts, instead of admitting that you are incapable of doing so because of sin, and putting your faith in the mercy of God.

Then, after condemning alleged Roman "works righteousness," they then turn around and declare that you aren't a real Christian unless you've said the "Sinner's Prayer." In other words, you aren't saved by faith, but by reciting a specific set of fundie-approved words!

Sounds a little like a magic incantation to me...

:eyes:

[TexasBushwhacker]

55. They also don't approve of Catholics prayers to Mary

and the saints, and they don't agree with the "necessity" of the priest in the whole grand scheme of things - confession, last rites, etc.

I wonder, when an extreme Evangelical dies, does God forgive them for thier intolerance?

[nonconformist]

27. I was hoping they'd show the mock too nt

[NewYorkerfromMass]

2. Catholics have one too

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Born Again Christians need to get a clue, learn what Jesus and compassion are REALLY about, and finally- respect women's rights to their own lives and bodies.

[pacalo]

9. How about "love thy neighbor" & "judge not lest ye be judged"...

If this is what they're teaching in church these days, I'll honor the Sabbath by staying home.

[tabasco]

3. Wow, those born-agains are pretty gullible.

You can just say you said this stuff and all of a sudden you're one of them. The way they do it, words speak louder than actions. You don't have to practice the teachings of Christ as long as you say the magic words. But if you do practice the teachings of Christ, but haven't said the magic words, you're the enemy. Those people sound pretty dumb to me. Un-Christian too.

[rumguy]

4. good post

honestly this is the first I've heard of the 'sinner's prayer' - where does it come from - it's not in the Bible is it?

[Barad Simith]

7. the "sinner's prayer"

http://www.bible.ca/g-sinners-prayer.htm

[NewYorkerfromMass]

19. Incredible link. Thanks. I had no idea how they hijacked

the Bible in this way. Everyone is "saved" so easily, en masse- the industrial revolution came to religion too.

[truthpusher]

21. Thanks for the link....

What's the deal with the rest of the site?

[Barad Simith]

39. don't know -- I've only seen the page I posted

I hurriedly (too hurriedly, it's now apparent) Googled "sinner's prayer" and came up with that page. My thinking was that it would both answer rumguy's question (as to the definition of the sinner's prayer) and explain why it's bad theology.

I am not necessarily in agreement with anything else on that site, or with the person or group that is responsible for it.

[Barad Simith]

5. same background -- here's an extreme take on this

My religious background was fundamentalist Christian, even more extreme than evangelical. This debate went through the congregation one year, and it was decided:

Before the sinner's prayer and born again experience, everything a person does is a sin. Since the person is in a natural-born state of sin, uncleansed by the blood of Jesus, then any act ... sacrificing his life to save a baby, for example ... was an act of sin.

And any sin committed after the born-again experience was invisible to God. It was covered (hidden) by the blood.

So ... Mother Theresa, being Catholic, was not only going to hell -- she was living a life of sin.

[chookie]

28. How interesting

May I please inquire as to what demonination you belonged to?

Catholic here. Gee, I remember back in the good old days when we were the wackiest folk around, but we sure seem "centrist" now!

Wow -- what you are saying is extremely dramatic -- that even good acts are meaningless unless they are performed in a consciousness of Christ. OUCH! That is harsh. If Mother Theresa is a shameless watery tart, in their eyes, what do they think of, (GASP!) -- Muslims? (Jews are okay nowadays because their return to Israel is thought to bring about the return of Jesus, and apparently Jews are going to "get it right" this time around.)

Question: what might your congregation believe about seemingly sinful acts to aid a holy cause? Would they strictly denounce them, or might some accommodation be made for them?

Also, I hear a lot of hard rightwing Republicans , when caught in even outrageous misdeeds, saying, "I've discussed it with Christ, and he forgives me." Nothing to see here, move on, please.

Boy oh boy, again, I remember back in the good old days when people made fun of Catholics because of the notion of absolution -- but these folk seem to find parallel notions mighty convenient themselves....

[truthpusher]

31. Abortion Doctors...

your question:

Question: what might your congregation believe about seemingly sinful acts to aid a holy cause? Would they strictly denounce them, or might some accommodation be made for them?

Remember the attacks on Abortion Doctors?

[Barad Simith]

42. The short answer is Baptist...

...but there are hundreds of Baptists denominations. Ours was the General Association of Regular Baptist Churches.

(As an adult, I wandered through different fundamentalist and evangelical denominations until eventually becoming a Catholic in 1996.)

Question: what might your congregation believe about seemingly sinful acts to aid a holy cause? Would they strictly denounce them, or might some accommodation be made for them?

As much disdain as I have for the GARBC denomination, I have to admit they were not the "ends justifies the means" types. But there was a certain GARBC evangelist named Tom Williams who often decried the modern "weak" husband who wouldn't physically discipline his wife. (I am not making this up.)

Boy oh boy, again, I remember back in the good old days when people made fun of Catholics because of the notion of absolution -- but these folk seem to find parallel notions mighty convenient themselves....

I know. After my conversion, my fundie friends would give me the old: "You people think you can just sin and go to confession, and everything's okay."

And I'd say, "You don't even have that. Just a quick prayer, and you're off the hook."

[drfemoe]

36. They stole the blood

It was a sacred ritual. It was stolen (like everything else) by the xtians.
They (at least attempt to) steal everything that possesses Power.
*****
Fasting, dancing, and touching "Medicine" is followed by being ceremonially "scratched." This returns to Mother Earth a portion of own's body which She has nourished. The people hold that their blood is the only valuable thing they own; they freely give it.

Scratching, held to be beneficial, purifies the body and strengthens the people. It promotes endurance and general health--it is always considered a "preventive" measure rather than a "curative" act. Most of all, it is communion with Mother Earth, One Above and the community, a recognition of all they share.

Many Women note drops of blood always precede or accompany the inflow of Sacred Power. For men, could this ceremonial scratching with gar teeth or other needle-like implements be a form of communal male menses? Does shed blood signal purification? Are men now able to receive an infilling of Sacred Power--such life-giving or sustaining Power as Women possess? Some think so. (When ceremonial leaders or a group of men step inside the circular shell midden ring marking the boundaries of the Square Grounds, their female nature surfaces, a transformationalism of sorts.)

Before and after scratching, "White Drink" (called Black Drink by anthropologists) is taken which cleanses both actually and symbolically. Through these actions all are purified, cleansed, and brought together in unity and oneness, that is, wholeness with Creator, the Source. With all now capable with Power, all may now safely peer through the "portal."

In culmination, the community feasts, a great feast of Earth fruits. In thanksgiving for all that is and will be, the feast is first shared in portion with the Sacred Fire, center of all these activities and visible heart of the community.

http://www.freenet.tlh.fl.us/Museum/culture/THE%20FIRE.htm
(paras added for clarity)

[Barad Simith]

44. I have an online article that shows a lot of the ways...

...that Christianity hijacked older models for its own purpose.

http://smithbrad.nventure.com/home.htm

[drfemoe]

45. That's pretty much

my reply .. when I was in the xtian religion, I had such torment about the possbile torment of others!
I MEAN . WHY?

Now, that I've escaped that cult, my response to 'believers' who fear for my destination is: talk to YOUR god about it, if he is the one to deliver me to 'hell'.

What an abuse to humanity. RELIGION!

[sandnsea]

6. Faith without works is dead

The basic difference between Catholics and Protestants. Faith can't be earned, true; but without works it's not faith at all.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

16. John Kerry has "works". Of that there is no doubt.

Amazing how these fundies think though. The link I got above was fascinating.

http://www.bible.ca/g-sinners-prayer.htm

[kestrel91316]

8. Uh, just curious...............

What is this "Sinner's prayer" and exactly where in the bible is it found (chapter and verse)??? It wouldn't, maybe, be something made up by the fundies????

[Barad Simith]

10. yes, it's an invention of the fundamentalists

usually goes something like:

"Father, I know that I have broken your laws and my sins have separated me from you. I am truly sorry, and now I want to turn away from my past sinful life toward you. Please forgive me, and help me avoid sinning again. I believe that your son, Jesus Christ died for my sins, was resurrected from the dead, is alive, and hears my prayer. I invite Jesus to become the Lord of my life, to rule and reign in my heart from this day forward. Please send your Holy Spirit to help me obey You, and to do Your will for the rest of my life. In Jesus' name I pray, Amen."

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

26. It sounds a little bit like this, much older prayer:

The General Confession from the Anglican Book of Common Prayer:
"Almighty God, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, maker of all things, judge of all men; we acknowledge and bewail our manifold sins and wickednesses, which we, from time to time, most grievously have committed, by thought, word and deed, against thy divine majesty, provoking most justly thy wrath and indignation against us. We do earnestly repent, and are heartily sorry for these our misdoings; the remembrance of them is grievous unto us, the burden of them is intolerable...."

I don't remember the rest of it, but the language is so much more majestic than anything the Fundies ever come up with -- theology aside. I really don't understand how "the sinner's prayer" makes you "saved" or whatever, if in your life you're still an asshole.

[regnaD kciN]

40. ...to continue...

"Almighty God, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, maker of all things, judge of all men; we acknowledge and bewail our manifold sins and wickednesses, which we, from time to time, most grievously have committed, by thought, word and deed, against thy divine majesty, provoking most justly thy wrath and indignation against us. We do earnestly repent, and are heartily sorry for these our misdoings; the remembrance of them is grievous unto us, the burden of them is intolerable...."

"...Have mercy upon us,
have mercy upon us, most merciful Father;
for thy Son our Lord Jesus Christ’s sake,
forgive us all that is past;
and grant that we may ever hereafter
serve and please thee in newness of life,
to the honor and glory of thy Name;
through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen."

That's from the old (1662) version of the Book of Common Prayer -- the current version also has a somewhat different form in modern language.

The difference between these forms of confession (or the Roman Catholic "act of contrition") and the "Sinner's Prayer" is that the former are meant to be said at regular times by Christians. In other words, we realize that seeking to follow Christ doesn't mean that one cannot sin and be in need of repentence and forgiveness thereafter. In our understanding of the faith, the Christian life is a process of (hopefully) growing closer to God, a process that requires that we also seek to hear God's will and follow it in all our actions, not expecting perfection, but being determined, when we mess up, to recognize it, turn back to God, and strive to do better in the future.

On the other hand, the "Sinner's Prayer" is not meant to be said by Christians, but by those wanting to become Christians. It is essentially a cosmic "Get out of Hell, free!" card so that, having said the magic words, nothing one does from then on will be counted by God as sinful. No wonder the fundies who subscribe to this practice seem quite content, as they trumpet their "saved" state, to bear no mind whatsoever to following the teachings of Jesus.

:eyes:

[drfemoe]

52. and put their

burdens upon the lowly of the earth. forevermore..

What a lovely suicide mission for the planet.

UGH .. worms we are and worms we shall ever be!

Pathology is what I call it.

Heal thyself!!

[Barad Simith]

43. That's why you Anglicans are going to hell...

...because of the majestic language, and the looking down upon of the fundie assholes.

:hi:

[mopinko]

11. when oh when

will religious fanaticism be recognized as the mental illness that it so clearly is??????

[mzmolly]

12. Whatever happened to "Ye shall know them by their fruits"

er uhm, some such verse? ;)

:shrug:

Seems the Fundies forget about the "Bible" an awful lot.

[Gabi Hayes]

13. I'm taping this....is the last half hour or so even worth watching?

are they doing this bit uncritically, like the shots of 911, or the glossing over of the stolen election?

I heard the first part was very very good, but how bout what's on now?

guess I can just FFwd this stuff

[truthpusher]

15. The last half has not been very enlightening

[physioex]

23. Yea I stopped watching the last 30 mins.....EOM

[ProudDad]

25. In The last half

The evil that is the shrub is apparent as is the chance that he may actually be elected is scary...

[SpiralHawk]

14. I got the Original Blessing

And seem to have missed the Original Sin that Bush and his buddies splash around in.

[RevCheesehead]

17. What I found scary...

was when * said "I can be like that...I can do that." To me, it shows his manipulation of the religious right. His model was Pat Robertson. All he had to do was to get on Christian TV and play them like a song...and he still is.

The problem with many evangelicals is that they NEVER consider the possibility that "one of their own" could be a deceiver. "But, but, he's talking about Jesus!" But if they really knew their bible, and not just the parts their pastors tell them to memorize, they would know that Jesus speaks of false Messiahs and deceivers who come "in sheeps clothing."

The "sinner's prayer" is not in the Bible, but it is based on a particular theology of 19th century American Christianity. To me, there is nothing magical about it, for it pre-supposes sincerity. Just like Baptism alone won't get you into heaven, neither does saying the sinner's prayer. And BOTH Baptism (infant or adult) presumes that one will CONTINUE TO GROW IN FAITH AND GOOD WORKS.

Amen.

[truthpusher]

18. The sad thing is....

....I do not think that this movement is an in-noble effort on the part of the evangelicals, it's just very elementary and naive. If the movement is to grow and strengthen it must become more inclusive and reality based. Is the realization that they can be duped by the likes of GWB a lesson that they will learn? Are the Evangelicals willing to abandon the teachings of the New Testament in order to maintain the integrity of their shallow ideology? A religion based on a prayer?

[regnaD kciN]

41. The possibility that "one of their own" could be a deceiver...

George = 6 letters
Walker = 6 letters
Bush, Jr. = 6 letters

Need I say more? ;-)

Maybe not, but I'll let Jesus have the last word:

"And if anyone says to you at that time, 'Look! Here is the Messiah!' or 'Look! There he is!'-- do not believe it. False messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, the elect. But be alert; I have already told you everything."

-- Mark 13:21-23 (NRSV)

[Ladyhawk]

22. Faith is the cause of fuzzy thinking, not the result of it.

Borg-Agains believe the shrub because they already believe in talking snakes. Really, I shouldn't have been surprised when my fundy "friend" ended up supporting Emperor Bunnypants after all the harm he's caused this country. Fundies believe dogma over facts and science. For the most part, "reasoning" with them is a waste of time, for they eschew reason.

I fucking give up on fundies.

[ProudDad]

24. Bush IS the anti-christ

Maybe he's the one the rapture loving born-again's are waiting for.

Wouldn't that be a hoot, eh?

:)

[gauguin57]

29. Sept. article about vagueness (and expediency) of Bush's "religion"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A24634-2004Sep15?language=printer

snip:

"...But Bush had not actually said that abortion is tantamount to murder. Nor, according to aides, has he ever said that all abortions should be illegal. When asked by reporters during the 2000 presidential campaign and again last fall whether abortion should be banned, Bush said the nation was not ready for that step, without indicating his position.

"George W. Bush is among the most openly religious presidents in U.S. history. A daily Bible reader, he often talks about how Jesus changed his heart. He has spoken, publicly and privately, of hearing God's call to run for the presidency and of praying for God's help since he came into office.

"But despite the centrality of Bush's faith to his presidency, he has revealed only the barest outline of his beliefs, leaving others to sift through the clues and make assumptions about where he stands. Bush has said many times that he is a Christian, believes in the power of prayer and considers himself a "lowly sinner." But White House aides said they do not know whether the president believes that: the Bible is without error; the theory of evolution is true; homosexuality is a sinful choice; only Christians will go to heaven; support for Israel is a biblical imperative; or the war in Iraq is part of God's plan.

Some political analysts think there is a shrewd calculation behind these ambiguities. By using such phrases as the "culture of life," Bush signals to evangelical Protestants and conservative Catholics that he is with them, while he avoids taking explicit stands that might alienate other voters or alarm foreign leaders. Bush and his chief speechwriter, Michael J. Gerson, are "very gifted at crafting references that religious insiders will understand and outsiders may not," said the Rev. Jim Wallis, editor of the evang

[truthpusher]

33. Is he the member of a congregation? Does he have a spiritual adviser?

[gauguin57]

30. Article on George's fake conversion

And here's the infamous Gail Sheehy story from Vanity Fair from 2000. This shows how hollow Bush's supposed "conversion" really was. It makes me sick.

http://gailsheehy.com/Politics/polimain_bush3.html

"... Bush's drinking had become more than just an embarrassment to the whole family. Laura Bush, a Midland librarian whom Bush had married when he was 31, tried the soft sell, taking him, along with the Evanses and the Joneses, to a religious lecture series given by Christian author and broadcaster James Dobson. But Bush refused to behave himself. "Laura would be sitting next to George, and George would come around to sit next to me" so the two could crack jokes, says Jones. "What kind of pants did the Levites wear?" Bush would whisper.

"...In 1985, Don Evans urged Bush to join a new kind of men's group—a franchised Community Bible Study program for men, a precursor to the Promise Keepers. ... But Jones doesn't remember Bush taking that spiritual exercise very seriously either. The pastor would ask a question from the lesson: "What happened to the Jew on his way to Jericho?" "He got his butt whipped," Bush shot back. ... And when his attention span was exceeded, he set his watch to go off in the middle of the pastor's spiel. The other men guffawed, and the following week they all set their watches and the class turned into a cacophony of alarm bells.

Jones, who can point to the exact date when he became a born-again Christian, never heard Bush describe a conversion experience. "He never said he was spiritually empty. It's my understanding that his profession of faith was made in 1986, after the Reverend Billy Graham visited."

"... Probably mindful of Big George's savaging by the Christian right, Mrs. Bush told reporters that her son has always read the Bible. (Bush challenged that myth in a recent interview with The Washington Post: "No, I wasn't reading the Bible when I was younger.") It is also his mother who likes to tell the conversion story ... "

[Born_A_Truman]

34. Did anyone else

get the impression when Bush was invited to 'discuss policy' in the Frontline program with the party money guys that they chose him for their 2000 candidate because he had a name and they thought they could use him?

Read between lines=stupid puppet.

I did!

[drfemoe]

32. Too bad

the 'sinner's prayer' (what an abject jest at humanity) could not save him from his dementia.

What good is it?
Heaven can wait. We live Here, NOW.

It's *gwb* ...

http://www.adbuzz.com/bushbuzz.htm

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1047530

[gauguin57]

35. I went through my born-again Christian phase in high school.

I used to give those little pamphlets to people, telling them all they had to do was pray the little prayer and "accept Jesus as their personal savior," and they'd go to heaven. I felt, at that time, that the Bible compelled me to go out and share something that I thought was wonderful; I was quite high on Jesus at the time (hey, I was a kid), and wanted others to feel the same way. And I surely didn't want my friends going to hell.

I was like one of those freakin' witch-trial judges in "The Crucible."

One day, after a few years of thrice-weekly bible studies and retreats and burning my Ouija board in my parents' backyard grill and hearing people denounce supermarket scanners because the antichrist could perhaps someday use them to put the mark of the Beast on people ... I woke up, and realized what a freakin' SCAM it all is. That neither I nor any one book could have all the answers. That there are a gazillion religions in this world ... that there is one Truth but a gazillion WAYS to that truth ... and that I was being a little self-righteous prig, who was sinful and flawed and human.

I realized that I now felt that being a good person and trying my best to help my friends, my family, my community, my country, my planet -- to make the world God gave us a better place -- THESE were the keys to a good spiritual journey.

And I realized that people who felt they could do whatever they wanted in this world -- lie steal cheat kill warmonger -- as long as they'd said the little prayer were DELUDED and hypocritical.

Ladies and gentlemen, the pResident of the United States!

[truthpusher]

37. Reminds me of what I experienced...

Same thing: Fear of Ouija boards also the devil getting stomped (whenever you had a problem pray 'devil I stomp on you'), all sorts of demons (everybody's problems were caused by demons), speaking in tongues (weird and goofy).

Being around Born Agains was very very weird.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

46. What actually struck me watching Frontline

Was that when George decided to run for office, someone decided he needed a wife. His friends and supporters gathered around and produced Laura whom he married THREE months later and then left her behind as he immediately hopped on the campaign trail, all but ignoring her unless he needed her for a photo op.

Isn't that the most romantic love story you've ever heard?

[truthpusher]

47. reminds me of the movie 'Rosemary's Baby'...Yikes!!!

[Ripley]

48. LOL!

I caught that part too!

I used to really think Frontline was a hard-hitting investigative program. I was really disappointed with how lightweight they were on Chimpy. They actually portrayed him as a True Texan without the obvious facts to the contrary. He sure pulled the wool over their eyes! Why aren't they pissed at him? How can a real cowboy vote for a fratboy who is afraid of horses?

[Strawman]

49. I'm very much FOR Kerry after watching this

I've always been a supporter of Kerry, but more of an ABB person. But watching John Kerry on this show through the years and seeing his sincere concern about public service and his degree of passion and engagement and the amount of thought he puts into doing the right thing on every one of these important issues makes me think that there are probably not too many people, if any, who are better fit to serve as President.

I can't think of a word with enough magnitude to describe how poorly George W. Bush's character compares to that of John Kerry. What was telling is that what Bush's people pointed out when speaking about his religiosity is that what really excited Bush most about his being an evangelical was not so much the ideas behind that faith but that it provided him an avenue to power (initially the Texas governor's office). His supposed resoluteness is really nothing more than a way of favorably spinning his complete moral paucity and lack of concern for anything other than having his ego stroked. That's not a virtue. It's the absence of virtue. Why isn't this fucking obvious to everyone by now? I respect the fact that John Kerry has been known to agonize over difficult decisions. It shows that he is a profoundly moral person. It's not called flip-flopping. It's called thinking and it's guided by a sincere desire to do the right thing.

[blm]

53. Well said.

And thankyou.

[truthpusher]

60. Nice quote...

'It's not called flip-flopping. It's called thinking and it's guided by a sincere desire to do the right thing.'

I'll use this (with your permission of course :) )

[Strawman]

62. thanks

and sure go ahead and use it :)

[Ilsa]

51. I got the same impression.

Like he was worried someone might accuse him of being gay or something if he wasn't married.

BTW, it didn't look like they planned much in the way of a wedding. It looked like she was wearing a Sunday dress with a little bouquet. I wonder if George H.W. and Babs were there? I've never seen pics of Pickles in a gown. You'd think they'd make a big show of the namesake getting married, at least for political purposes.

[Ripley]

54. They really are a dysfunctional family aren't they?

The proud parents didn't even attend their twins' college graduations.

Laura doesn't strike me as a golddigger, so I wonder what really motivated her to hitch up with the boozing, womanizing, snotty, low achieving New Englander?

[BuelahWitch]

57. Yes, the Bushes were in the "wedding" pictures

Bar and Poppy were standing beside Jr.

[Supersedeas]

50. the string of "independent" smear group assoc. w/ * distinguishes Kerry

Independent groups that smear Ann Richards with homosexual rumors and outright lies about the TX crime rate.

Independent groups that smear McCain about his vetenam record and the adoption. Bush's CNN appearance where he says, "Let me finish, let me finish....I respect your service to this country." (Sound familiar)

And now we have the Swift Boats.


Kerry brings straight policy politics - Bush and his cadre of Right Wing thugs bring smear and smear.

Frontline had the courage to show the distinction - and the Network media...eerily quiet about history and tactics.

[TexasBushwhacker]

56. IT WILL BE ONLINE OCT. 15TH

For those dopey people like me that forgot to watch or set their VCR's.

[SammyWinstonJack]

61. Thanks for the heads up

I am dopey too. :-)

[liberal N proud]

58. You can say the words all you want, but if you don't live the life

then the words mean nothing!
Jesus Christ can see right through the paper shroud they cover themselvs with.
It is like saying these words and only these words will you be saved, all others do not exist in their eye.

This bord again shit is really begining to piss me off. What about those of us who grew up with faith?
Do we have to fall off the wagon (so to speak) then come back and say the majic prayer and be dunked by a preacher, then we are OK again?

[misterphelps]

59. "born again" a tool in reach for power

That's what I saw... Bringing Jr. in on his daddy's campaign to woo the fundamentalists. Didn't they remark how easy it was to get those congregations to follow along when they hear their language? I'm even more cynical about this guy now

[VolcanoJen]

63. I just finished watching "The Choice."

I absolutely love this program, and look forward to it every presidential year. This year's was especially excellent.

Remember the reporter covering Bush Sr. in Texas, Kay Bailey? Is that Senator Kay Bailey Hutchinson?