News Flash: Dean doesn't own the anti-war vote.

[plurality]

I have had enough of hearing from Dean supporters saying Kucinich 'sold out' by telling his supporters to causus for Edwards if he wasn't viable. Your premise is flawed and I'm tired of it being implied that I'm a sell out because I won't vote for the king of compromise, the poser of principles Howard Dean.

Let's get a few things straight. Howard Dean is NOT anti-war, nor is he anti Iraq war. He barely opposed the war at the begining (Biden-Lugar or 60 days anyone?) and he is in favor of continuing the occupation, which if you are paying attention is a war! If Kucinich was going to be able to maintian his purity on the war vote he would tell his people to caucus for Sharpton who was anti-war and is anti-occupation. But wait a moment, Sharpton had no support, so this group would again be unviable, which means Kucinich people would have to caucus for a major candidate.

And personally I think Edwards is a perfect choice on this. Because 1) He doesn't hold us in contempt as Dean obviously does since he thinks it's perfectly OK to lie and say that you're the only candidate that opposed the war. And 2) He actually has a domestic policy that is similar to Kucinich's because it does something about helping poor people.

So sorry Dean supporters, cry sell out all you want. I think it's quite funny actually, I never thought I'd hear supporters of the King of compromise calling others sell-outs, but hey stranger things have happened. Anyway, cheerio!

[HFishbine]

1. "UN in, US out."

Or vote for Edwards. It really doesn't matter.

[plurality]

2. Pretty much.

"UN in, US out" or continue occupation and continue killing Iraqis and continue shipping home dead and maimed soldiers. Dean's stance on this seems to be quite similar to Edwards, and Clark, and Kerry, and Lieberman, and Gephardt. Or should we maintain our purity and vote Green?

[SlavesandBulldozers]

16. here come the flames

putting Dean with Lieberman now are we? Low blow, untrue, and not in the spirit of good debate.

My suggestion would be, in your case, to go green. Stay pure, ya know? The rest of us will figure out how to take the country back from George W Bush(tm) while you go out and vote for him.

[plurality]

19. sorry but no

The truth of the matter is, it doesn't matter what your position on what should have been done is, but what your position on what needs to be done is.

And Dean's position is to continue the occupation, which is the same position that Kerry, Clark, Edwards, Lieberman and Gephardt have.

And no, I'm not planning on voting Green, because I want Bush gone, but I also realize that on the war, I'm going to be out of luck, because NOONE (including Dean) that has a chance of being nominated has a position I agree with.

[HFishbine]

21. A different view

Some of us think that "what should have been done" does indeed matter. It's a measure of good judgement. Those who opposed the war showed better judgement than those who supported it.

[snoochie]

3. It is ironic, isn't it?

The funny thing is that this was a one-time deal for this caucus, and all the henny-penny routine is coming not from his actual supporters. I guess placing third when you expected to win would be distressing and may drive one to desperate tactics, though.

Wonder how long it'll last.

[plurality]

4. Oh I imagine we'll never hear the end of it.

But c'est la vie. I've already accepted the fact that we'll probably have a turd in a pretty liberal wrapping for a nominee. The one thing I like about Edwards is that he's speaking publically about Publicly Financed Elections and free air time for candidates. Personally I feel that those two issues are the most important there are. They go straight to the heart of overthrowing this plutocracy, but I'm a sell out because I won't vote for someone who says he's anti-war, go figure.

[snoochie]

6. I like that about Edwards too

Very important issues!

I have to hope that once they see the mud isn't sticking and no one is converting it will stop, though.

[stickdog]

22. You aren't a sellout. You should vote anyway you please.

If you want to support an unapologetic Iraq war hawk, please go right ahead.

It's Kucinich who is the sell out, and he sold out to the pro-war, pro-corporate DLC for exactly ZERO delegates.

[plurality]

24. i'm sorry

you're right, Kucinich and I must be misguided. So Edwards, who wants to take money out of politics and return it to the people, through actual action mind you and not rhetoric, is now pro-corporate, and Dean who will ensure our health care is owned by Insurance companies, has no plans for taking money out of politics, has plans for revoking corporate personhood, etc, etc, etc, is an anti-globalization activists dream.

[youngred]

28. Pretty high and mighty to be throwin those stones

you're one of the people who should read and take into account what was said in the original message most judging by the what you were saying all day yesterday.

[in_cog_ni_to]

5. The only reason the Dean supporters

are crying..."sell out" is because Dennis didn't make a deal with their guy. I don't know what they would expect from Kucinich and his supporters after the flyers Dean mailed out lying about Dennis and the war. This is truly baffling. Really, after ALL of the bridges Dean burned along the way, what do they expect? :shrug:

[plurality]

7. Oh I know that's it.

It's just funny to see the level of doublethink that goes on.

For example:

Moseley-Braun is in contact with Joe Tripp et al, then a few days later defends Dean at debate, then next day drops out and endorses Dean, then Dean gives her $20,000 and agrees to help pay her $300,000 debt. And they say, "Move along nothing to see here, this is just politics, it happends all the time, Dean didn't buy her endorsement."

Then Kucinich tells his people to caucus for Edwards when they're not viable and the shouts of, "corrupt backroom deals!" and "sell out!" fill the air.

Just gotta laugh at it all.

[windansea]

8. they say acorns

don't fall very far from the tree

[blm]

9. You nailed that one.

.

[DemBones DemBones]

10. Kucinich and Edwards finessed Dean and Trippi,

and the Dean supporters are unhappily crying "No fair!"

"Life is unfair." John F. Kennedy


DENNIS :yourock:

[Nazgul35]

12. they they they.....

I've been noticing this alot from many poeple here in the last 18 hours....

broad brush painting is alive and well in DU!

Every candidate has supporters who are nasty, supporters who are ideological.....but this need by some of you to foister your own personal beliefs about the motives and actions of a whole group of supporters is what is laughable....

So someone somewhere hurt your feelings in a thread.....get over it....I have! I understand that this is big boy time and not the election of the football captain, as do most supporters of most candidates...

a little less painting with a broad brush will go a long way...

I suggest that you actually go to Kucinich's own blog, there were a few supporters who were actually pissed about this....

[plurality]

15. ok, will "visable Dean supporters that post threads implying...

Kucinich is a sell out because he helped Edwards and not Dean." be suitable?

[Tinoire]

18. Note: Those aren't real Kucinich supporters

They all registered yesterday. Most eventually gave themselves away as Dean supporters. Kucinich supporters remain standing firm. We are used to this tactic & are immune to it; we understood long ago that the war in Iraq is a domestic issue, circles within circles.

A little strategic vote swapping to combat Trippi flying/bussing all his people in and strategically dispersing them throughout the state.

We've been trying to tell Dean supporters from the beginning that he shouldn't bank on getting Kucinich supporters for x,y, or z reason (insert list of all the progressive domestic/trade issues/environmental that we are passionate about for instance). Many Kucinich supporters feel more of an affinity for Kerry and Edwards.

I don't understand all the commotion anyway. It's only the first shot and the horses are barely out of the gate.

Bookies are lined up everywhere trying to get people to throw away their tickets. 3rd place at the start of the race for a mostly grass-roots campaign is not bad.

Quit your bitching Dean supporters (those few, LOUD, ones of you who are just bitching & pissing on everyone because they don't share your conviction that Dean is THE man), roll up your sleeves and get back to damn work if you believe in him!

[goodhue]

33. amen!

the sky is falling stuff and DK-hate is really out of hand.
I'm happy that DK went from 9th to 5th! Onward and upward!

[in_cog_ni_to]

23. Yup,

it's all quite hilarious. I just loved the CMB deal. Curiouser and curiouser. Edwards was the ONLY guy Dennis could make that deal with. So, who could blame him? Not me!

[beaconess]

27. Bingo!

n/t

[Paragon]

11. No one claimed they "own the war vote".

Relax. Breathe. And how did Edwards vote on IWR again?

[plurality]

13. oh so who were all the Dean supporters that wrote threads...

asking, "How could DK send his supporters to Edwards?" expecting him to send his caucusers to, Lieberman?

[Paragon]

14. No...

I think they were expecting them to stay with Kucinich.

[Tinoire]

29. They have little grasp of how caucuses work in that case

It's all about wheeling and dealing in the room until you have enough people standing in your group. If you have too few you don't count.

For months Kucinich supporters were begged not to "throw" away our votes. Would they have preferred we throw away our caucus vote?
I hope not. It was a little strategic dealing- nothing more and no harm done. It's exactly, sadly, how Caucuses work.

[veganwitch]

25. I'm not sure what your implying but

you candidate supported the biden-lugar amendment and tries to ignore that fact. Edwards can't hide from his voting record but dean, because he doesn't have that record, can spin anything he believes 20 ways from sunday.

[Duder]

17. It's politics...

Kucinich is a politician.

[stickdog]

20. Sorry.

Since Dennis got nothing to speak of in return, I suppose he wasn't technically a "sell out."

[youngred]

26. Amen!

Kucinich supporters don't "owe" Dean their votes, and I was very annoyed at the sour grapes reaction to the announcement of the Edwards/Kucinich bargain claiming we'd all given it up and our ideological match was Howard Dean.

Howard Dean has attacked and lied about DK
Howard Dean is one of the more conservative people running
John Edwards has some very similar platforms in regards to social, economic, education and class policy and for taht reason makes him a great second choice and a wise political move for DK.

So to the Howard Dean supporters, try a little respect and outreach rather than brash assumption. Please

[ThirdWheelLegend]

30. I am glad you posted that.

Pretty much my sentiments exactly.

TWL

[Lydia Leftcoast]

32. Agreed

To one who has actually compared both Dean and Kucinich, they are NOT any kind of ideological match. Instead, if I may paraphrase the eloquent Al Sharpton, "Dean's a corporate centrist in a Wellstone jacket."

[plurality]

38. When did Sharpton say that?

Oh wait nevermind, you paraphrased it, in that case, good one!

[goodhue]

31. right on!

As Kucinich put it:
"The longtime poll leader dropped to third, which some pundits are erroneously crediting to Dr. Dean's status as an anti-war candidate. Dr. Dean did not consistently oppose the initial stages of this war and he has said that he will keep our troops in Iraq for years."

Dean folks who think Dean is anti-war should look at his current postition on the occupation and ask how it differs from Kerry & Edwards?

Arguing about a vote from last fall is not a winning strategy without being consistent with regard to the occupation. If the war was wrong, then so is the occupation. Indeed, the occupation is war.
In what sense is Dean anti-war? And how does that differ from Kerry/Edwards in terms of policy prescriptions?

From a Fellowship of Reconcilation press release on Dec. 16, 2003:
"The FOR supports true peace and freedom for the suffering people of Iraq. We believe that this will only happen when Iraq is free from all foreign occupation and from the imposition of any economic or political agenda from the outside. We join with Representative Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio) in demanding that, since the currrent administration's objective of regime change in Iraq has finally concluded, the U.S. (and all allied nations) must immediately end the military occupation of Iraq."

[sangha]

34. give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action

"give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice." Howard Dean

http://fordean.org/aa/issues/press_view.asp?ID=398


Dean’s Rhetorical Twister
Rivals say the Vermont contender has inconsistent war views.
"http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-geraghty032803.asp

"...And then on Feb. 20, Dean told Salon.com that "if the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice."

But a day later, he told the Associated Press that he would not support sending U.S. troops to Iraq unless the United Nations specifically approves the move and backs it with action of its own. "They have to send troops," he said..."

[sangha]

35. *kick*

because I think it's important people know the candidate's real record.

[plurality]

39. yeah, that's what I was talking about

Unfortunately, I've found that cognitive dissonance isn't always limited to Republicans.

[sangha]

40. another kick

for the nightime crowd

[Fleshdancer]

36. Newsflash: I never said Dean "owned the anti-war vote"

newsflash: I never said Kucinich 'sold out'

newsflash: I know Howard Dean isn't anti-war

newsflash: I'm not crying

newsflash: lumping a large group of people together because you don't like what a few people said is insulting.

[youngred]

37. you are one of the minority then

but sorry, DK supporters had to listen all day yesterday to him being called sellouts, a selfish politician, saying he'd lost his anti-war stance etc. Every single person who posted one of things was a Dean supporter. So sorry if this offends you, but your brethren are the ones who started the little ideological battle as Dean did by insulting, snubbing and ignoring DK