4 more Dead till it's time to Raise Hell again (1496 U.S Dead in Iraq)

[Up2Late]

4 more to go till we hit another milestone that the MSM might wrap there Talons around if we start Raising Hell about the (soon to be) 1500 U.S. Dead Troops :grr:

Here's a link to a site that's still keeping track of the Coalition Dead
<http://icasualties.org/oif/>

[patrice]

1. Part of Bush's support on this is "Born Again" Christian Crusaders.

Who think All of those who do not believe in Jesus as they do, are going to Hell. That troubles me deeply in conjunction with a strong willingness, CHOICE, to make death and destructions, the BUSINESS OF WAR, or more "Christian" Crusades on unknown INNOCENT "others", and, thus, being just like the Terrorists we say we hate.

I talked to one such (counter protestor) recently at our weekly anti-War gathering here in K.C., on street corners. Sunday, a counter-protestor told me I couldn't "worship" Mary, or use the F-word. He said he might enlist, and anyone who is not "Born Again" and hasn't accepted Jesus as the ONLY lord and "savior" is going to Hell. I also thought it was interesting that apparently, since Jesus saves nothing is required of me except that I accept that "fact". What I do doesn't matter. Faith that requires personal action did not seem necessary to him. That has always puzzled me, because I think it is these same people who say they VALUE personal responsibility. If the only thing that matters is whether I am saved, and if I am saved, what I do does not matter . . . . . Can anyone out there explain these contradictions to me?

I know God so perfectly that I am perfectly right, so what I do does not matter. Besides being blasphemy, isn't this the essence of "fascism"?

[Spinzonner]

2. You're wasting your time and energy

if you think it will reach Bush and the Neocons.

The world is collateral damage to them in their grandiose plans for fixing the world to their image.

[patrice]

3. Precisely the point I was trying to get across to these "Pro-Lifers"

Pro-life resents the commoditization of fetuses. War is the commoditization of All Life . . . .

. . . except for the lives of those in "power". All other life becomes the same as grain-futures, or metal ore, or pork bellies; it is the ultimate (in the Nietzche-ian sense of ultimate = final, last before the end of . . . ), War is the ultimate economy, in which All life is expendable, except the lives of those who have the power to CHOOSE war. They justify the deaths of unknown others with whatever semantic tools/hot-buttons are handy, most especially Religion.

Never underestimate some mens' imperative to engage in Crusades in order to "find meaning", because t/he/y can't generate meaning/value for himself.

[ArkDem]

4. there Talons???

[Up2Late]

5. Just a little "shout out" to Jeffy Gannon

the hero of the GOP:evilgrin:

[gratuitous]

6. But of course, by so posting

You have exposed yourself Up2Late of secretly wanting 1,500 dead soldiers in Iraq, and therefore you're part of the godless "elites" who are causing the great U S and A to not be as successful as Dear Leader wants us to be.

Yes, as difficult as the concept is for you liberals to fathom, 1,500 military wouldn't have died, except that Up2Late made this post! Shameful, isn't it?

It takes an uncommon intellect to see and understand these things, but I can assure you that someone will make the very point of this post on a network or cable news program in the next week, and unlike me, they won't be just talking out their ass for comic effect but be totally earnest.

[Armybrat]

7. That's exactly the impression I get...

...up2late seems to think that those soldiers dying in Iraq aren't human beings, but merely political ammunition.

[patrice]

9. That's your perspective. Not shared.

It means the opposite of what you say.

Assuming that the deaths are acceptable for whatever reason dishonors the deaths.

[Armybrat]

11. point taken,

"Assuming that the deaths are acceptable for whatever reason dishonors the deaths."

Certainly those dying in Iraq arent dying for a just cause. But the men who fought and died in WWII, in the Civil War, and in the Revo. War certainly died for noble causes. But to stage a "Countdown" of sorts to 1500 deaths is in poor taste, IMO. We should support the troops and pray for their safe (and swift) return as opposed to using their deaths as political fodder.

[patrice]

13. You introduce an interesting suggestion as to the perspective History

gives to "facts", though, of course, History isn't an absolute factor either, it does affect the kinds of meanings people acquire about what happened.

Many people have seen death up close and personal, for some of us the sacredness of the private individual experience of "passing on" is now encoded in my own "life". We do not know whether someone citing death statistics respects those personal deaths or not, until we find out more about the speaker.

One thing we do know is that if these deaths are "acceptable" for whatever reason (currently deemed relevant by MSM or whoever), then so is anyone else's death, including yours. War commoditizes the value of life on the open world market. This is also one of the basic assumptions of Terrorists.

And you can get arrested for saying it is okay for a president to die for whatever reason.

[Armybrat]

14. Ok that was a little over my head

I think we can all agree that the Patriots who died during the Revolutionary War died for a just cause. Same for those who fought to end the inhumane practice of slavery, and the many Allied forces who fought to liberate Europe from Hitler's grasp and protect our borders in the process.

However, when Bush lied about WMDs and sent 100s of 1000s of troops over there to die, their deaths are even more tragic because they are unnecessary.

[patrice]

18. And the probabilities are that when the History is written

about this (Iraq + 2 or 3 generations of Americans + wars of some sort in 3 or 4 other MidEastern countries, which are supposed to produce peace between Israel and Palestine), it will bear your statement out.

I was just thinking from what you said, about how there is a meaning that is acquired along with History. That's a social meaning, but I think the personal meaning of death is much different from the social meaning(s) we give it.

[gratuitous]

10. Ah, but who sent them over there to die?

And what are they dying for? Clearly not those old debbil weapons of mass destruction -- there hasn't been anything of the sort in Iraq for over a decade. It's not to get rid of Saddam Hussein, he skedaddled but quick shortly after the invasion.

Don't tell me the troops are over there to secure Iraq's freedom, because that claim surely doesn't stand any scrutiny. What else might Operation Iraq Liberation (OIL) be trying to accomplish?

And if it's for something as cynical as I suspect (and the corrupt Bush administration has given me every reason to believe that it's true), then the soldiers who are in Iraq were placed there by an administration that sees them as political ammunition, mere adjuncts to the furtherance of its political ambition.

You seem to have the right idea, but the wrong culpable party . . .

[Armybrat]

12. gratuitous

I never said I supported Bush's Oil War, but I do hope the troops come home safely (and soon) and to "get ready" for the 1500th death is in extremely poor taste, and gives the other side the wrong impression.

[gratuitous]

16. Poor taste or good taste

My post (and though I don't want to ascribe motive to anyone else, I think this goes for Up2Late's post as well) is that we will soon hit the 1,500th KIA in Iraq. There's nothing you or I can do about that.

But like it or not, large round numbers hold a certain fascination for the human mind -- witness the excitement generated in the general populace by the year 2000. This dubious milestone need not, however, pass by without some sort of mention. There will be those who say that merely marking the occasion is a slap in the face of the military and that it provides aid and comfort to terrorists. I don't accept that.

And bringing up the number of those killed (to say nothing of those wounded, maimed or otherwise rendered hors de combat) might just serve to raise public consciousness. This is not a terribly popular war for people who have bothered to look at it very closely. However, the Fourth Estate has failed miserably in its reporting on the war's prosecution, and 1,500 dead just might alert a few more people to the ongoing atrocity being carried out in their name and with their tax dollars.

If enough people make their voices heard loud enough, it's just possible that some of our political leaders will feel compelled to run around to the front of the groundswell so they can pretend they really are leading. Until the complacency of the warmongers in Washington is shaken, the men and women we have sent over to Iraq aren't coming home anytime soon.

[Armybrat]

17. seems to me your first impulse

should be mourning the soldier's deaths as opposed to "getting ready to raise hell."

[gratuitous]

20. Well, I never said

I never said I was "getting ready to raise hell."

But if publicizing the number of military (and civilian) dead, as well as raising some pointed questions about the other costs associated with this war constitutes raising hell, then I'd have to plead guilty.

I guess I'm a little more in the Joe Hill camp, who told his supporters just before his execution "Don't mourn; organize!" The most fitting tribute to a fallen soldier who I can't bring back is to do what I can to see that there are as few graves as possible alongside his among the "honored dead."

[Up2Late]

25. Well Said

Like you said, All I'm saying is that the MSM is so broken and uncaring, right now about troops that are being killed everyday over there (not to mention the Hundreds of Thousands Innocent Iraqi civilians that have been killed, and will continue to die), that about the only time they ever notice, is when we click over a major number like 1500 or 2000.:pals:

[patrice]

27. Everyone must take it upon themselves to talk with anyone who will listen.

As politely, and honestly as possible.

Bush's War is a horror every morning. I wake to hear of more deaths that need not have happened. That does not absolve the bombers of their responsibility either. There is no such thing as completely innocent nor completely guilty in this war, except for the person who CHOSE IT FREELY, George Bush, and about whom, were i to assume it is okay for GWB to die for whatever reason, like unknown innocent others elsewhere (wherever Bush and Cheney choose) it is okay for them to die, but if you assume the same thing about Bush, the person who CHOSE Death and Destruction, you are arrested.

Endless War, do not fool yourself into thinking they won't do it.

Help Us Krsna! Hare Rama!

[patrice]

19. I think you are right. If people don't know more about how and why

you're saying that, they may think you are using the deaths to your advantage. All of us need to understand one another in more detail. Don't accept what MSM says about us, "You think this . . . . " "You feel that . . . . " "Americans want . . . . " Most of that is BS.

[patrice]

15. Check out discussions as to the irrelevance of body-count during Viet Nam

" then the soldiers who are in Iraq were placed there by an administration that sees them as political ammunition " Not only are these deaths used by Bush to insure that others go to his war, the basic principle of what wins wars does not depend on body count. Google it; there's plenty written on this subject.

A soldier's death does not insure whatever "winning" is defined as, especially when the "win" is 2 or 3 generations, and 3 or 4 other countries away.

[patrice]

8. You are right that this is the next meme they wish to plant in US minds.

One of our counter-demonstrators had a sign with our organization's acronym on it, KCITF, and in quotation marks, "Help us increase torture rooms." The Republican/Born Again Religious Right NOISE machine speaks LIES again.

[Up2Late]

21. You mean it's MY Fault?!?

I'm SORRY:cry:

Oh by the way, we just lost another (1497), MY BAD!

[Armybrat]

24. Thanks for further proving my point

It seems as if the individual deaths mean nothing to you, the big number is just a weapon to use against Bush. With people like you giving the opposition such a bad image, it will be a looooong time before we win another national election.

[Up2Late]

28. I'm Proving your POINT, the only point I'm proving is that you...

...you just don't get it. You're proving my point that you are a Brainwashed POD.:grr:

If if the individual deaths mean nothing to me, I wouldn't have the link to this site on my website for going on 2 years now

<http://icasualties.org/oif/>

I'm Mad as HELL about everyone of our Men and Women that are Killed and Permanently Wounded by this Stupid Unnecessary WAR.

I Love America More that you will ever know, and I don't like people who don't understand how close we are to losing the America that I grew up in, and how dangerous these Fascist occupiers in the WH are.

Go ahead and check out my website <http://www.ihadadream.net/pages/2/index.htm> You won't find ANY anti-American Crap there.

Being opposed to a Bad President is the most Pro-American thing you can be.:grr:

[Armybrat]

30. I never questioned your patriotism

I'm just questioning the way you go about expressing it. I'm confident that we both agree that Bush's war is wrong and its unneccessarily killing far too many US troops. And let's face it, protesting the war isnt anti-American as Fox would have you believe, its probably the most pro-American thing you can do. But uncorking the champagne when we hit another casulty milestone which makes Bush look bad makes us look even worse.

[Up2Late]

31. IT WAS A CALL FOR ACTION!!!

Raising HELL= Start calling and E-mailing the MSM to Wake Up and recognize that another 500 of our Boys and Girls are DEAD since the last time they noticed!:grr:

Man you're Dumb :grr:

[Armybrat]

26. How would you feel if you

were 1497's mother, father, child, etc. and read what you just posted- the "MY BAD!" part- how would it make you feel.

[Crunchy Frog]

29. I would probably be too busy mourning

my loved ones death to bother worrying about what some anonymous poster said on some message board. And I'm sorry, I just don't understand what point you're trying to make.

[Democrats_win]

22. Every death is a sad milestone. The American mind is so corrupted,

we think that 1500, being a round number is signficant compared to other numbers. Consider each family victimized by bushwar, only one number counts.

Objectively, considering all those who died under bush's evil eye, there have been too many deaths.

[Clarkie1]

23. Ted Koppel/Nightline should run another special

Like they did when they read the name and showed the picture of each of the first 1000.

[mainer]

32. we've already passed it

According to this website, we're already over the 1500 mark

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iraq_casualties.htm