I find it quite disturbing that Bush is now getting credit for...

[PROGRESSIVE1]

"making" democracy in the Middle East, if you call it that. The Iraqi War was based upon LIES and Bush just might come out smelling like a Rose in 10 years! You have no idea as to how angry I am over this.

:grr:

[Just Me]

1. It's a taxpayer-funded, deceptive propaganda campaign,....

,...initiated by the right-wing.

The Middle East is far messier now than it was five years ago.

[cthrumatrix]

21. remember it's a war that will not stop ---- it's about oil and the dollar

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

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[Zenlitened]

6. Whah? Discrediting the democratic movements in the Middle East...

... is NOT the solution to controlling the Bush spin.

The solution is to support democracy where we can, while making sure that the facts of Bush's dangerous policies are part of the conversation here in the US.

Welcome to DU.

[Just Me]

8. No. We need to reveal the neoCONs for who they really are,....

,...deceptive, manipulative, war profiteers.

[Clark2008]

13. Just go read some Lebanese newspapers online

and print out the editorial pages.

The biggest English version online is The Daily Star (don't remember the URL just now - read it at home and I'm at work).

They are asking the United States to be a peace broker ONLY (read: don't always side with Israel) and to stay the hell out of their fledgling democracy.

Just keep telling everyone who thinks that the Bush Doctrine caused the Lebanese revolution that it has NOTHING to do with Bush or the United States: they revolted because their beloved PM was killed. Period.

I have friends who are Lebanese and they're aghast that our media is spinning it to read that Bush or the US had anything to do with this. In fact, the Lebanese think the ONLY thing the US MIGHT have had to do with their revolution is a possible connection to Hariri's assassination.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

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[RaleighNCDUer]

18. No, we need to find a way to promote and nurture true democratic

movements in the middle-east. A stage-managed vote that just somehow comes out supporting bush cronies in Iraq is not indicative of developing democracy. A show vote in Palestine, when the Israeli's have the military veto, is not indicative of developing democracy. A popular uprising in Lebanon, forcing the resignation of the pro-Syrian government might be -- but we need to see what they will replace it with. Will Lebanon return to being the most westernized, most cosmopolitan, most liberal country of the Muslim world, as it was before the civil war and 20 years occupation by Israel and 10 years occupation by Syria? As a side note, Was Lebanon a democracy before the civil war? I remember there were power sharing agreements between the christians and muslims, but I don't remember how they selected their chief executive and their government.

I'm not saying that Muslim countries are incapable of democracy. I'm saying that unless democracy is brought about by popular action, rather than imposed by an invading force, it will not survive. Remember, Weimar Germany, democracy imposed by the victors of WWI, survived for only 12 years before Hitler was voted into power.

[jab105]

27. Ummm...NOBODY wants to discredit democratic movements here...

that would be quite harmful...

n/t

[theboss]

3. Look...if ten years from now real democracies exist in Iraq and Lebanon

....And there is a real Palestinian state....

Hell, I will contribute the George W. Bush Monument on the Mall.

Long, long way to go though....

[Skidmore]

4. It will be even more impressive if a real democracy still

exists here too.

[theboss]

5. Well, that would be a plus

But I think we'll be okay.

[Just Me]

9. I don't suppose you would consider crediting the Iraqis and Lebanese,...

,...would you?

[theboss]

12. Of course

But if this drastic change in Middle East policy actually works, Bush <shudder> will deserve some credit.

Look, I don't think Reagan "won the Cold War." But I do think that some of his policy changes likely sped the decline of Eastern Bloc. I also think he did it by taking a huge gamble with our lives and economy that could have been catastrophic. Still not sure the risk was worth it, but I give the man credit for balls. Same with Bush. I think we could be seeing the same results in the Middle East without all the bloodshed in Iraq. But, if somehow this works out...well..God bless 'im.

[Just Me]

17. I imagine they would set up a statue to celebrate their survival,...

,...of Bush's war especially if they manage to reclaim their natural resources.

:shrug:

After all, it's the people who form democracy.

[wtmusic]

7. * will never smell like a rose

to anyone who knows what a war crime is (9 Nazis were hung in 1945 for doing what Junior did to Iraq).

And Iraq will never be more than an puppet state while the American military is there. Is an oppressed puppet state a democracy?

[DulceDecorum]

10. Don't get stressed over a pig with lipstick,

after all it is still a
Greedy Obnoxious Pig.

[AValdoux]

11. The other foot

What if these new democracies are islamic based governments who tell us to go home? Exactly what Bush says he's trying to eliminate in the middle east. His policy in the area only fuels anti-american feelings so why wouldn't they vote for anti-american candidates. Nobody discusses the possibilty of democracy that could possibly be anti-US.

AValdoux

[Clark2008]

14. And that's what they will be

The Iraqi people have already, basically, put the mullah's of Iran in charge and the Lebanese will vote in Hezbollah.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

15. Lebenon will back Hezbollah, are you sure?

[Clark2008]

16. No, I'm not "sure,"

- nothing is 100 percent - but Hezbollah is very popular there.
Actually, Hezbollah isn't even a political "party," but I'm sure their organization will float some popular candidates.

On edit: I stand corrected. Just checked with my Lebanese friend down the hall and Hezbollah is, indeed, a party, and very, very popular. I thought Hezbollah was simply a grassroots organization (that evoked terrorism, too).

[Warren Stupidity]

25. hezbollah runs a huge

charitable organization alongside of its underground activities. They also have an aboveground political wing, in the IRA model, that allows them to participate openly in places like Lebanon. Very smart group. Hugely popular.

Like Iraq, this 'democracy' thing has the islamacists wondering what the f*k bushco is thinking. All across the muslim world military dictatorships are keeping the islamacists at bay, preventing them from taking power at the ballot box.

We are an empire of fools. Bring in the neoclowns.

[stillcool]

20. What the hell is 'democracy' anyway?

And how do you atone for all the wrongs done in this war, and the ones preceding it... that killed millions of innocent people? I don't get this simplistic jargon, applied to the massive power grab thats been going on. Are all those people going to forget?

[AG78]

23. So you must still have

some kind of faith in humanity to be angry. See, I've given up on that. For me, it's confusion. Confusion about this whole thing called space, time, and reality.

For the sake of argument, lets say Iraq is free. Free to do what?

Have credit card debt, I'm sure.

Not to be killed in torture chambers? Maybe, but that can be changed. All they have to do is elect someone who will appoint a man who thinks torture is ok.

Free to create reality TV? Technically, that is freedom.

Free to buy a blue car, instead of a red or green car? Yeah.

Free to have corporations run the country and have more rights than the citizens...I mean, consumers?

Funny thing about freedom; freedom also allows those who want to control you to do so. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there are laws against that. Well, they are there to be broken. You have to fight back against that, but that force NEVER goes away. Hasn't in this country. It just changes shape.

Don't really know how to explain it. Humanity just doesn't work, that could be one way.

I just struggle with the question; what's the point?

Problems never go away, they just change, yet remain the same. Humans today deal with the same issues that people thousands of years ago dealt with, just maybe with a few different variables.

The way language can be used, if you know what you're doing.

If you just try to live simply, someone will always come around and try to take what you have.

If you're the someone who takes what another has, you'll try to do it again and again. Even if that person finally doesn't accomplish taking from another, there will always be another someone right around the corner.

I sometimes hate the way I think. It really bothers me. But racism is alive and well. Slavery thrives. Sexism is still there. War will never go away. People will always make money from trying to kill other people. People will always try to gain more and more power. It doesn't matter what laws are written. It doesn't matter what group of old men thought they heard God. It doesn't matter what New World is discovered. It doesn't matter how big a protest may be.

I really hate thinking that way.

[2diagnosis]

28. "Humanity just doesn't work" - ?

How would you replace it?

[Warren Stupidity]

24. I wouldn't lose sleep over this. (NT)

[madrchsod]

26. remember the furn`n press has an entirely

different view on "Miracle George".as they put it-democracy comes from the people not the government. plus Lebanon was a democratic country before everything blew up 20 some years ago..any other democratic reform in the middle east is a sham...