Ideal Candidate: Feingold '08, Electable Candidate: Clinton '08

[ProudToBeLiberal]

I bet the same thing will happen in 2008, people will say Hillary is the most electable just like they did for Kerry...we saw where that led to. Maybe instead of choosing the supposedly electable candidate we should choose the ideal candidate who is true to his principles.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

1. Flip them around and you'd be closer to the truth.

Hillary is NOT electable, unless the threshold for Electoral Votes goes down to the mid 160's.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

2. Hillary is the ideal candidate...o_O

errrrr....

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

5. I said "closer". I didn't say it was THE truth.

She is an outspoken, strong, very intelligent, somewhat-liberal woman. Sounds close to ideal.

The primary point was that Feingold is more electable though.

[trogdor]

16. Feingold is from WI, right?

Might pull in a couple of midwestern red states.

Hillary is fine where she is. She'll get re-elected next year, and that will be that.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

19. yup he's from wisconsin nt

[JI7]

3. why not just run Kucinich again

[ProudToBeLiberal]

4. well ma'am, I remember in the primaries

that you supported kucinich, but you thought kerry was the most electable and so you supported him.

[JI7]

7. i did not support Kucinich

i supported Kerry because he was my ideal candidate. Kucinich was never my ideal candidate. but for many on DU i think Kucinich was.

[iwantmycountryback]

97. Kucinich is neither ideal or electable

[nickinSTL]

6. You're assuming Hillary is electable?

I've generally thought Hillary is ok, though her recent run to the right has made me reconsider.

However, a LOT of people, and not just conservatives HATE her.

Not just dislike, but HATE.

I'm not entirely clear why...but they do.

I don't see how she's electable, personally.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

9. That hits the heart of the problem.

Too many formed opinions about her, and not enough of them are positive. It's almost impossible for her to change her numbers to the point where she can get elected.

[luxpara]

8. don't kill me but -

Why don't people like Hillary? Is it because she seems to "centrist" right now?

She might be the most electable candidate we have, and regardless of the sneaky face she puts on, she won't sell out women's rights or gay rights...

[RevCheesehead]

103. are you sure about that??

What about the "advice" (pres) Clinton gave Kerry during the campaign? He told him he should get behind the ban on gay marriage, or at least denounce it. To Kerry's credit, he refused to do so.

If anyone's looking for honesty and integrity, Russ is the one. I just don't believe anything I hear from the Clintons anymore.

Sorry.

[blm]

10. What about Kerry makes you say he's unprincipled?

Hard to imagine that anyone could have a record of public service that includes investigating and exposing more government corruption than any lawmaker in modern history without help from any DC powerstructure and still be accused of being unprincipled.

If you have a point to make in admiring Feinglod then make it without throwing out an insult to Kerry that is demonstrably false.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

12. well we all know where you stand

You're loyal to Kerry.

[JI7]

13. she voted for Kucinich

[ProudToBeLiberal]

14. Even if she did that doesn't excuse her countless other actions

I remember when Dean was leading in the primaries, blm along with one other person who changed their username kept bashing Dean, saying that he was unelectable and kerry was.

[JI7]

15. i remember the electable thing being used against Kucinich

people objected to some of the candidates having voted for IWR.

but there was Kucinich who had voted against it but people brought up the electable thing as reason to support someone else.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

17. self-delete...inappropriate

[JI7]

18. whatever

[ProudToBeLiberal]

20. my heart, oh my aching heart...the rejection broke my heart...

I will always remember you my love.

[blm]

27. I never said Dean was unelectable. I said that ANY of them COULD win

but, that it would be the media that would make the task most difficult.

I didn't care for Dean's campaign style that attacked other Dems to burnish his liberal creds since he actually governed as a centrist. He wasn't liberal enough on civil liberties issues and too probusiness for my liking. But, I would have supported him mightily if he was the nominee.

I always stuck only to the political issues, and not any personal media-driven perception crap. I refused to join in any gloating over perceived missteps or media putdowns. Sorry you didn't appreciate that, but, many Dean supporters did.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

28. hi...

i no understand this complicated talk...

anyway you did kind of redeem yourself when you supported Dean for DNC chair. Thank you for that.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

30. also

at least you're not denying that you bashed tean relentlessly through the primaries even though you were confronted with multiple of facts from janx, madfloridian and other people.

[blm]

37. Get real. There was nothing about Dean that I didn't know because I

bothered to research him.

Hell, it was months before some of his supporters even realized that Biden-Lugar was never SIGNIFICANTLY different than IWR and would not have stopped Bush from invading Iraq.

Dean and Kerry's campaigns were exaggerating their differences for political posturing. Seasoned politicos knew that and so did Dean and Kerry.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

40. well I admire you for the drive and focus you show for bashing dean nt

[blm]

64. Baloney. That's not bashing Dean. My posts about Dean are realistic and I

don't think he is insulted by anyone noting his centrist governance.

I had an HONEST disagreement with Dean back in the primary but never felt the need to attack him personally. I would wager that Dean was uncomfortable afterwards about some of what he said about other Democrats in the primary just as I'm certain there were apologies made by Kerry for any of his overblown differentiations.

To try to turn this all into a grudge about Dean-bashing just seems like a crutch because you really can't accuse Kerry of being unworthy and use his actual record of service to do it.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

69. HOT DOG AND MUSTARD nt

[cestpaspossible]

23. Does that mean you can't answer the question?

If you have no answer to the question, just say so, but trying to imply that the question is invalid because of the person who asked it seems, well, petty and unresponsive.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

25. no I'm saying her answer is predictable nt

[cestpaspossible]

33. SO ANSWER THE QUESTION THEN

The question was:

What about Kerry makes you say he's unprincipled?

You claim you have an answer. What is it?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

35. can you put a link to YOUR post where you asked that question? nt

[cestpaspossible]

39. Sure here it is. Now please just give your answer.

I'm asking the question in this post, right now.

What about Kerry makes you say he's unprincipled?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

42. first he voted for the war, but then he voted against the 87 billion

he voted against the 87 billion not because it was a principle decision but because it was political expedient at that time to do so. He was getting slaughtered by Dean and the anti-war faction at the time.

[Name removed]

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[ProudToBeLiberal]

47. WRONG...Feingold was the only senator who voted against Patriot act

look it up on google.

[cestpaspossible]

52. Sorry, I got mixed up with another one of my heros, Paul Wellstone.

But it really is irrelevant to the point I was making, which you managed to ignore and obfuscate, and which therefore I will repeat again:


It is possible to imagine a base or evil motive for any action that anyone takes. But judging other people on the products of your own imagination rather than on their words and actions is false reasoning

[ProudToBeLiberal]

53. yeah but that argumen is invalid

because your example was invalid. give me a new example please

[Name removed]

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[ProudToBeLiberal]

60. WRONG...Feingold voted AGAINST the Patriot Act...

new example please.

[cestpaspossible]

61. Why don't you try reading the posts you are replying to?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

67. my answer

please refrain from replying to my threads in public, if you want to do so in the future pm me. thank you.

P.S. your respone to my PM was rediculous, so I'm showing you how ridiculous it is. thanks.

[Name removed]

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[ProudToBeLiberal]

76. self delete...I need to keep my word...if you want an answer pm me nt

[Name removed]

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[ProudToBeLiberal]

82. oops wrong place nt

[cestpaspossible]

84. Say again?

I DO have all day, by the way.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

83. nt

[Name removed]

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[ProudToBeLiberal]

88. nt

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

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[ProudToBeLiberal]

92. nt

[Name removed]

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[ProudToBeLiberal]

96. .

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

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[ProudToBeLiberal]

49. here's the link too

about feingold against the patriot act...http://www.archipelago.org/vol6-2/feingold.htm

[blm]

29. The National Security Archives and congressional record prove his mettle

and principles. I have nothing to do with it.

Why don't you state your reasons why he is unprincipled and please explain how he came to have such a historic record without principles?

I'd also like to see you name one other lawmaker who investigated and exposed more government corruption than Kerry. Just one. It should be easy for you if Kerry is as unprincipled and unworthy as you claim.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

32. ok first of all

you really can't make that argument about him exposing government corruption, he didn't really emphasize that part of him during the primaries or the general election. He mostly emphasized his military accomplishments during vietnam. It would have been great if he talked about how he exposed the iran-contra affair...but he didn't.

[blm]

43. YOU said he's unprincipled. YOU use his record to prove your point.

And naming someone who DOES have a record more principled and historic than Kerry would be an interesting benchmark to illustrate your requirement standards and who you do deem worthy.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

45. ok I'll name one Feingold

he voted for ashcroft and rice not because it was political expedient but because he believed in senatorial courtesy, it was a principle decision. Feingold voted against the patriot when all the other senators EVEN Kerry voted for the patriot. Even though the senators was in immense pressure after 9-11 to vote for the patriot act Feingold out of principle voted against it. Feingold help sponsor the McCain-Feingold bill.

[JI7]

51. Feingold voted with Republicans against ban on

semiautomatic assault weapons last year for election purposes. he voted for the ban in 1994.

and Feingold voted against confirming Gonzales as attorney general. no senatorial courtesy there.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

56. here

Feingold has argued that Presidents have a right to select the Cabinet that they want. But Feingold always promised that he would make an exception if a nominee's record or actions raised serious concerns about ethics or competence. After grilling Gonzales at length during a Judiciary Committee hearing in early January, Feingold said he was not confident that Gonzales would respect the rule of law. Accordingly, he voted against confirming the nominee.

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0203-31.htm

I'll get back to you on the weapon ban

here

Feingold said his mind had changed on the assault weapon ban since he voted for it in 1994. In an interview in May, he indicated he would be giving the measure a fresh look.

Tuesday, he said: "I have come to believe that it is a largely arbitrary and symbolic measure. Citizens see it as a first step towards confiscating their firearms."

http://www.jsonline.com/news/gen/mar04/211805.asp

[JI7]

59. i guess he had no concerns about the ethics or competence of Ashcroft

and Rice.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

65. here

With representatives of liberal groups grim-faced in the back of the room, Feingold announced he reluctantly would support the nomination.

Feingold called his support ``an olive branch'' to the new GOP White House but ``not a white flag.'' He urged Bush to renominate for a U.S. judgeship Ronnie White, a black Missouri Supreme Court judge whose nomination to the bench failed in the face of an Ashcroft-led campaign against him.

http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/Ashcroft-Nominated-31jan01.htm

Also about rice i'll let out won DUers answer this question http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=186&topic_id=4733

[JI7]

68. ok, so he didn't think there were problems with Ashcroft and Rice's

ethics and competence. just what i said.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

70. please read the thread before answering thanks :) nt

[JI7]

73. i did read the thread

[ProudToBeLiberal]

74. then you know my response :)

I have no need to repeat myself

[Mass]

55. Even Wellstone voted for the Patriot Act

Feingold should be commended to have voted his conscience in a very difficult situation.

[blm]

71. So. Kerry and Wellstone authored the Clean Elections legislation

before there was McCain-Feingold which would have taken big money out of politics.

But, still, that is nowhere even close to investigating and exposing IranContra and BCCI and the illegal wars in Central America.

Those were pure DANGER areas and Kerry endured the scorn and shunning for years, even by members of his own party.

[cestpaspossible]

11. the 'electability meme' was a corporate media invention - forget it

I defy anyone to provide anything from the Kerry campaign or from John Kerry touting his 'electability' as a reason to vote for him.

This is a falsehood that was perpetrated on us by the corporate media and taken up with gusto by ABKers. It's all based on misleading exit polls that didn't ask the voters to give the reason for how they voted, but asked the voters to choose among several corporate-media selected hypothetical reasons. And that list did not include choices like "he is the most qualified" or "he would make the best leader" or "I admire him" or "he will fight for me".

If you want to find out why someone did something, you can't ask them a multiple choice question.

[lojasmo]

86. My county democratic chair, a shrill kerry partisan

used that meme repeatedly. She worked for the Kerry campaign. There you go.

[Mass]

21. Voting for the 87B, voting for Rice and Ashcroft?

sorry, I certainly could support Feingold when the time comes but nobody is perfect.

Anyway talking about 08 is premature. Let's focus on 06.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

24. For Rice and Ashcroft he said he believes in senatorial courtesy.

also you left out that he was the only senator who voted against the patriot act. Feingold votes on his principles not on some whim or it's the most advantageous thing to do.

[Mass]

26. I like Feingold

It is just that nobody is perfect. Feingold has some votes I disagree with, as all other senators.

I respect him a lot for writing a bill against death penalty, a subject that is clearly not popular in the country. It is a big + for me.

Anyway, I wished the 08 talks would stop.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

22. Hillary is very low on my list of choices.

[Mass]

31. Amusing

How a pro-Feingold post needs to have an anti-Kerry slant. I am not sure I understand why? Would it not be better to post the positives of Feingold. He has a lot of them.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

34. well because it's related

if you were here at DU during the primaries you would remember that Kerry was touted as the most electable and that Dean and Kucinich wasn't electable in the general election. Basically the same thing is going on, Hillary is touted as the most electable... and etc

[Mass]

38. Well, I like the two

and will probably be conflicted if the two run. But now, I am not interested at all in 08. Way too early.

As for Clinton, let's hope she is not the one because she is nothing close to liberal.

[cestpaspossible]

41. You said it. Divisive posts about 2008 won't help us.

[cestpaspossible]

36. Some don't understand that you can't build someone up

by tearing someone else down.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

44. three word...remember the primaries? nt

[cestpaspossible]

48. Could you please explain what you mean by your post?

BTW, do you own a calendar? Do you know what year it is? Do you know when the next elections is? Just wondering...

[ProudToBeLiberal]

50. without learning from our mistakes we will never succeed in progress

during the primaries, many people on DU attacked candidates in order to bring their candidates up. I never saw you arguing against it.

[cestpaspossible]

54. WTF are you talking about?

I've done nothing in this thread except argue against tearing down Democrats.

You never saw me arguing against anything during the primaries because I didn't join DU until after the general election.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

72. well then you don't know what we're talking about

oh btw in the future please don't respond to my threads in public, respond by PM. thanks

[cestpaspossible]

78. I wont accuse you of not knowing what you are talking about.

Since you are so good at divining other people's unspoken motives, why don't you tell everyone WHY I wont accuse you of not knowing what you are talking about.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

79. nt

[cestpaspossible]

81. What was that?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

85. nt

[cestpaspossible]

89. I cant hear you, what?

[ProudToBeLiberal]

93. .

[cestpaspossible]

98. Your turn.

BTW, I'm guessing that if a thread is not actually being used for discussion, but instead for some childish flame game, the mods will probably eventually lock it.

So in the interests of not getting the thread locked, let's stop the childish games, and get back to the discussion where we left it off. You had attacked me as not know what I was talking about, and I responded by refraining from launching a retaliatory attack, and asking you to use the same mindreading abilities you used on John Kerry on me, and tell everyone WHY I was not saying that you didn't know what you're talking about. So.

Why don't you tell everyone WHY I wont accuse you of not knowing what you are talking about.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

100. escuse me you started this childish games

You told me not to pm you anymore or you would ignore me. So what I did was go the opposite and make your comment look stupid. So whos playing this childish games now. HUH? This is my last response to you I feel very insulted that someone would do that. BYE

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

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[stray cat]

57. I think Feingold is electable

He is an independent maverick who supports the little guy. He says what he thinks and does what he says. He appeals to Midwesterners and does not come across as elitist. He is fiscally responsible and has bipartisan support to enforce a pay go bill in the senate.

[politicasista]

62. Oh like Kerry poo-pooed the little people cause he is rich

I think all this electable talk is just a right wing media talking point/spin. We need to stick together.

[Mass]

63. Dont fall in the trap

Dont oppose one and the other. This would be meaningless.

I believe Feingold may be electable too and it is true he comes as a maverick.

We dont need to oppose one against the other as the initial poster is trying to. I have to say that he does nothing for Feingold in my mind. He does not give me any argument to support him, not even against Clinton (not that I need him to give me some).

[cestpaspossible]

66. Yeah, Feingold and Kerry are both great Dems

A Democrat would really have to have their head up their ass to think otherwise, imho.

[saltpoint]

77. Hillary Clinton faces long odds in many states.

Voters perceive her as elitist. My mother's neighbor -- a Democrat -- believes Hillary Clinton is a lesbian. Progressives are cringing at her shuffling to the Right of late in an effort to appear "centrist."

I believe she's going to be whomped in Iowa, placing third or fourth, whomped in New Hampshire the following week placing fourth or fifth, and then obliterated altogether in South Carolina.

[Hippo_Tron]

91. Replace Clinton with Feingold and you're right on...

Feingold is ideal and electable and that's why I'm 100% behind him if he runs.

[yourout]

94. I will vote for Hillary but there is NO WAY she will win.

If you think they played Kerry as a flip flopper they will make her look like chinese acrobat.

[AmericanDream]

102. Hillary is first on my list of ideal candidates... from the bottom!

It's not just that she isn't electable... I don't see any attraction in getting her into the white house... 4 or 8 more years of clintons is just out of the quesiton...

[Cuban_Liberal]

104. I'm not drinking the 'electable' Kool Aid in '08.

No more, thank you very much.

[Zhade]

105. Clinton: NOT WITH MY FUCKING VOTE!

nt!

[Moderator]

106. I'm locking this thread

reason:

Flame-fest