For Democrats who want to leave the country

[question everything]

On occasions we have threads about this and this week was no difference.

But I was thinking about you the other day, when I was driving and listening to Andrew Young talking about Coretta Scott King on NPR.

The host asked him about King's desire to stay in Boston and Young replied that both the Kings knew they wanted to return to the South - and we are talking mid '50s - to work to change the conditions there.

So please look at their examples. They could have stayed in the north, get a nice faculty position and live the easy life. But they chose to go back and to fight for their beliefs.

This is our country, too. They - who condemn Muslim and Jewish zealots but promote Christian ones at home - hijacked our country. Our country that stood for freedom of speech, for pluralism, for separation of church and state for civic rights.

We can take it back but we cannot do this if you choose to give up.

[JeffR]

1. Right on

And I say this as an American living abroad. Even we expatriates can play a role.

[Zodiak]

2. And we all know how well MLK's story turned out, right?

Please let Americans make their own decisions about their lives. They know what they are leaving should they decide to do so.

[Yollam]

3. Some of us have second home countries, kids, other factors.

We're leaving in April - but we are a binational family, and want our kids to be safe.

If my wife was an American, we would stay here, but her dad's all alone and getting very frail.

It's not always as simple as "Bush's America sucks, I wanna get out."

But getting out of it is appealing at this particular moment...

[Bridget Burke]

13. You are actually going somewhere.

So many post here just wanting to run away!

They don't know any language but English & haven't looked into the actual details of emigrating. Do they have sufficient money and/or skills? Even above legal requirements--what can they offer their new country?

I hope you do well in your new home. And I hope things improve so you can return to the USA--if only to visit.

[Yollam]

21. I know what you're saying.

It sounds good on paper, but if you look into emigrating to say, Canada, you find out that you need a job there to get a visa, or a relative. Plus, upping and leaving your whole family and support structure can be a big to-do.

That's why after every Bush/GOP outrage, there's a lot of hue and cry by democrats wanting to leave, but the actual numbers of people going hasn't been all that high, just a few thousand more than normal.


That being said, if the trend toward Third-Reich-style government continues unabated long enough, there may come a tipping point where a real exodus begins.

A lot of the jews saw the writing on the wall in the late 30s and got the hell out, and I would be the last one to call them cowards.


But yes, at this point, if you don't have a real reason to go, it would probably be best to stay and fight on.

But when Rumsfeld's robot army is online and on the streets mowing down dissenters, all bets are off.

[AtomicKitten]

4. We can never give up.

We must never yield to the bullying of the Republicans, the media, and those on the fringe left -
all rooting for the Dems to fail.

I have a 19-year-old son and I don't want this to be the America we leave him.

[1620rock]

5. Well here in Michigan for those of us who choose to stay...

...it's a comfort to know that Canada is just a bridge toll away.

[Adelante]

22. I hope you have the money, if you change your mind

It's a whole lot more than a bridge toll to be an expat in Canada, according to previous threads on this topic.

[Wind Dancer]

15. What is the "fringe left"?

I keep hearing that term and would love to know the definition.

[Name removed]

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[Wind Dancer]

31. I think many hardcore Dems don't feel represented.

Why label people "fringe left" for not supporting every politician simply because they have a D after their name?

The majority of Americans believe that every person is worthy of basic health-care, job security and pensions, a decent and affordable education, etc. People are frustrated that certain politician's refuse to listen but cater to the corporations. Most people are against the Iraq War - we had the largest worldwide demonstration in history protesting this invasion yet most of our leaders ignored us.

The "fringe left" are the majority.

[AtomicKitten]

33. I don't think some people

here are DU are Democrats at all. The ones I speak of are the 2.5% who consider themselves the majority. But they have no concept of working within an organization. And unless a viable third party option presents itself, the Democratic Party is the only game in town that will bring down the Republicans. Many people of which you speak still want to work within and change the Democratic Party; I was talking about the few that don't.

[Wind Dancer]

36. This administration labeled us a "focus group" prior to the invasion.

The corporate-owned media labels anybody to the left of Clarence Thomas a left-wing extremists so these labels become confusing.

The DLC is responsible for splitting the party, I don't know how any progressive, liberal Dem could support the policies endorsed by this group.

[AtomicKitten]

38. I think people give the DLC much more credit than they deserve.

They were much more powerful in the 1990s, not so much now. I think Howard Dean proved to everyone that grassroots/internet fund-raising is a source to be reckoned with. However, I do agree they represent the conservative bent of the Democratic Party. However, IMO they deserve as much say as the rest of us, and I think it's on that point I part company with some of the more radical aspects left of center. They have gone as far as to accuse me of being a DLC operative or worse. Funny, really.

As a liberal Democrat, I used to write for a Green newspaper 2000-2002 and we agreed on every issue down the line except on how to win elections. I think that same discord is prevalent today. I simply don't think anyone has the right to call for "destroying" another aspect of the party. As much as the left Dems wish to be recognized and respected, I think they owe that same courtesy to the right Dems. It's simply a difference of opinion, and all opinions must be considered. That kind of stuff is hammered out in the primary process, and I am hopeful Howard Dean follows through on changing the status quo in the future in that regard to make our candidate the product of a genuine consensus.

[Wind Dancer]

39. The corporate owned media invites the DLC to represent dems.

The country continues to move further to the right by this RW radical administration. We are controlled by corporate powers, religious fanatics and the ruling elite. James Dobson and the mega churches have gained more power under this administration spreading hatred and extremist views. We are regressing, not progressing.

Women are being denied birth control and abortions laws have been introduced in 4 states. Look at the Supreme Court and tell me we aren't in serious trouble.


The PR firms have done a number on the psyche of this country. RW talk radio attacks liberals constantly spreading propaganda, this is why so many people vote against their own interests. We are still dealing with racism, poverty and lack of health care, etc. It's shameful that gays are denied the right to marry in the year 2006.

I think labeling people as left wing or extreme left is part of the RW framing. Again, Nixon would be considered a liberal in today's Orwellian world.

[AtomicKitten]

41. I wish it were just labeling.

But there is a palpable power struggle within the Dem party, and I don't think I've done any harm by saying people should be more inclusive and not seek to annihilate one faction or another. My focus for years has been on elections, and I can tell you straight up we NEED the balance in the party if we are going to be successful in ALL the states. We just need to tone down the scorched earth rhetoric.

Pay no attention to the RW'ers behind the curtain. Their insane world is propped up now with this administration, but I guarantee civil rights WILL prevail once this regime comes tumbling down. And that is guaranteed because if nothing else power changes are cyclical. I'm betting on the pile of felonies and one honest prosecutor named Patrick Fitzgerald.

[Wind Dancer]

53. You are not addressing the issues I've raised in my posts.

Civil rights are being threatened daily and it will NOT disappear in the next election. Do you relieve believe this country's problems will be solved by one honorable prosecutor? What about election fraud? Do you doubt that is a problem we face this year?

We didn't reach this place in history overnight, the conservatives have spent billions in dismantling every progressive structure that exists. Watergate didn't take down the criminals, they are STILL in power. Read the Powell Memo for more info:

http://reclaimdemocracy.org/corporate_accountability/powell_memo_lewis.html

I don't know what "scorched earth rhetoric" means so please explain.

There is a HUGE power struggle in the Democratic Party. The very politicians that work for the people, (Conyers, McKinney, Kucinich, Sanders, the CBC) are being ignored while the elite gain more and more power. The corporate Dems don't give a rat's ass about you or me.

The art of illusion or created reality needs to be exposed, open your eyes.

[Popol Vuh]

55. Hello FrustratedDemInNc

I agree with your point 100%. And as far as I am concerned, anything we do that leaves the root in place is only going to have the same effect as when you leave the roots of a weed in place.

In my opinion the root, in this case, is the corporate power. And also in my opinion there are simple and effective ways on dealing with it so that we no longer have a weed problem.

Although, I do not consider the kind of weed you can smoke a problem -- if you know what I mean.. :)

[Wind Dancer]

57. I like your analysis, Popl Vuh.

We indeed have a weed problem that includes the corporate, elite and radical fundamentalists.

Our imperial strength will be our downfall if we don't garden properly. We must start at the root cause, replacing our officials with healthy alternatives - using Monsanto weed spray sure isn't the solution.

[AtomicKitten]

56. your frustration is palpable.

But I wish you wouldn't summarily dismiss me, thinking I'm ignorant on the issues. I'm not. I wrote for a Green newspaper from 2000-2002 and worked my ass off for Rush Holt's HR-2239 which Bob Ney stopped cold in committee. I've been active in the Dem party for 30 years. My biggest concern, and there are many to be sure, is that we will never have clean elections again. I have no confidence that that will be resolved because it will take a change of power in at least one house of Congress.

Scorched earth rhetoric means making oaths to leave the party, vote for the opposition to get Dems out, trying to push the DLC out of the party (I wish both sides would acknowledge and respect each other), etc. I'm a liberal Democrat but have been accused of being DLC plant or a Hillary plant; both are so far from the truth it's laughable. I think this obsession with the DLC is ridiculous; they are given much more credit than they deserve because they are no more powerful than the grassroots/internet community. That's what I mean.

Regarding the pile of felonies, it just takes ONE indictment to break through the massive cover-up. And, yes, I do believe Patrick Fitzgerald has the best shot of doing just that. Once the crack is made in the facade, the rest will be exposed. And, again, as soon as at least one house of congress is taken by the Dems, investigations will begin in earnest.

I assure you my eyes are open, and it would be nice if you and others would not insult people by saying such a dismissive, subtly insulting thing like that. People are different; their different personalities cause them to react differently. My "thing" is election fraud, and I'm sure others are focusing their energies on other issues, and damn if we don't have so many issues it seems overwhelming.

It would be nice if people stopped sharpening their elbows to move around here at DU and try at the very least to be civilized to each other. We must be tolerant of differing points of view because, in the end, we are all in this together.

Peace.

On edit, regarding corporate money, ideally we would have public-funded elections with corporations completely out of the process. But until that is in effect across-the-board, I sure as hell want the Dems to be competitive with the Republicans being able to finance the likes of the Swift Boat Liars. Idealism is wonderful, but unfortunately reality kicks in. Don't confuse the two.

[question everything]

60. Thank you for a well thought post

I wonder whether there is a generation gap. We need the young people who will always want to re-invent the wheel, who are impatient with the status-quo leaders - at least, the ones who paid the dues and control the power and money.

I, too, am saddened by the impatience with anyone - an elected official or a DUer who waver from what some consider the only way.

For example - Joe Lieberman. Saying anything positive about him on these pages is like shouting fire in a crowded theatre. People hate him with a passion. Yet, he was elected by his constituents and I will certainly trust his Supreme Court nominees better than any Republican's.

So he supports the war in Iraq. But there are so many other issues. The reality is that as long as there is no draft the war there does not touch many personally - as it was during Vietnam. I am starting to think that just as with abortion and gay marriage two years ago, the war is a distraction of what matters for most voters: access to health care, to good schools, well paying stable jobs and a dignified retirement.

Yes, I agree with you. We have to learn to work together. Each of us can have his/her own litmus test for supporting a candidate. But following this road we will never regain Congress. And for Democrats and liberals to stay at home because their candidate did not win defeats the whole purpose of working for our agenda.

So, yes, someone with whom I do not always agree - like Clinton's rushing back home to send a low IQ person to death - is still preferable on any Republican.

[ProudDad]

49. I don't remember any election

for gate keeper of the democrat party.

I guess I didn't get the memo, eh?

[AtomicKitten]

50. I'm talking about people

that lob grenades at the Dem Party that aren't really Dems at all and have more contempt for the Dems than the Repbs.

Did you get that memo?

[AZBlue]

34. I wouldn't label that fringe at all.

I think by fringe it's meant those who feel the need to attack and complain constantly, those who never have ideas or suggestions of their own, those who feel you must agree with them or else you are stupid and a moron (to list two of the nicer names they use), those whose only goal seems to be to divide and berate. They aren't fringe really because they are so far-left - they are fringe because they are so disagreeable and most people here and in the Dem party aren't like that.

[question everything]

32. I was not aware of them

Thus, they would rather stay at home or not vote for the Democratic candidate so that we can continue to have Republican control of all three branches of government?

Do they also cut their noses?

And what do they have against Skinner and DU?

[leftstreet]

45. Are you thinking of some other site?

The site you're referring to is pretty specific in their guidelines re: not wasting time trashing other online forums.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[formernaderite]

59. so do you consider Conyers and Mckinney fringe politicians?

I don't have enough time for other bulletin boards, but if anything I'd call the DLC fringe...not the likes of Conyers and Mckinney. Is Medea Benjamin a fringe democrat to you? What about Cindy Sheehan? I'm trying to get a handle on who you are referring to. Understand, that my kind of democrat has been around for much longer...the DLC are the new kids.

[Zhade]

58. A pejorative thrown out by conservatives, usually.

No one who throws it around as an insult here can actually use it as it's really defined (Maoist, Stalinist, etc).

[CoffeeCat]

6. I understand what you are saying...

...and I applaud anyone who fights.

Also, I will never judge anyone who wants to leave. History shows us that the Jews who got when the writing was first on the wall---were courageous. Leaving doesn't mean you are giving up. For some, it means getting yourself and your families to safety.

I empathize with anyone who wants to leave.

I will stay and do what I can. However, I fear that it is too late.

They own the voting machines. They own the media. They own the Judiciary. They own Congress. They own the Presidency. They can take my home away if they want. They can spy on me, without cause and without my knowledge. They're passing legislation that makes dissent a crime. They can define me as an "enemy combatant" according to the Patriot Act--just for protesting. Then, they can detain me indefinitely and I have no right to legal counsel. They don't even have to charge me with anything. Then, they can torture me.

Most of our Democrats don't even fight back. Many are fighting with them.

I think it's too late. All of the pieces have fallen into place for them. They have the basic governmental and corporate infrastructure built to suit their fascist agenda.

However, I'm still here and I'll continue to do what I can.

[question everything]

11. One ray of hope is the "true conservatives"

who are dismayed at the growing deficit. Now, they don't want to cut defense and tax give away spending so the only thing left are domestic programs. And at some point all of us, the domestics will rise and protest.

This is every representative's pork: the welfare of the voters at home. And there are only that many manufacturing jobs that the DoD can dole out.

But I agree with you that every person's decision is personal and I am not to judge anyone. I just want all of us to keep the flame of hope burning for those who lost hope. We cannot find any glimmer of hope in the news stories so we need to keep it on these pages.

[Crazy Dave]

7. There's a lot of other things I'm sick of besides our leaders

I've lived in Europe before and would have no problem living there again whether in Spain or Germany. I would even prefer those two countries over new Zealand or Canada. Not saying there's anything wrong with those two great places, just my preference.

[guidod]

47. I want to live in Canada but

I can't get my wife out of Burbank. She is the ONLY thing that's keeping me here.

[applegrove]

8. I agree. King is the fore-father we should hold dear. And whose example

all Americans should strive to follow. Mrs. King's words on struggle were great yesterday. Someone quoted her.

[bluestateguy]

9. Very good point

The people who leave are cowards and drama queens.

[Yollam]

12. Or they actually have solid reasons for doing so.

But thanks for generalizing.

[Lerkfish]

16. or maybe they are principled heroes, who strongly object to torture

and genocide being conducted in their name.

:shrug:

did we demonize people seeking political asylum in the US when leaving an oppressive regime, or did we applaud their wisdom?

[bluestateguy]

19. I'm not going to argue with either one of you people

If you are going to leave, just get out and let us grownups keep up the fight (although we would appreciate your vote every two years, if that's not asking too much from people who scream about voting machine conspiracies every time we lose an election).

[Lerkfish]

23. why argue when its so much easier to namecall and make generalizations?

its so easy to say : The people who leave are cowards and drama queens.

its much harder to actually back that up with reasoned debate.

I think when you use the term "coward" you're very familiar with cowardice as a debating technique.

here's a clue: insults do not an argument make.

I note you ran like a frightened mouse to my question: did we demonize people seeking political asylum when they came to our shores?

[Lerkfish]

28. lol! so I frightened him to silence with my arguments.

some things are very predictable.

[TheWatcher]

54. Oh I don't think you frightened him into silence

But he knows he has nothing to counter the argument with, thus the silence.

He would of course claim to take the "higher ground" by claiming "it's a waste of time to argue with cowards and conspiracy theorists", but the Truth is, he'd probably rather not have the true weakness of his arguments exposed.

Thus your example of using cowardice as a debating technique.

I have absolutely no problem with those who choose to stay and fight, and I have no problem with those who wish to leave. We are all adults, capable of making the choices that are best for ourselves. But my advice to those who really want to leave, is do your research and have a PLAN. Make all considerations about what you are doing, and realize what a huge undertaking you are taking on by doing so.

As for the Poster you responded to, a better question to ask him would be "Were the Jews that left Germany in the late 1930's cowards and drama queens too, or should they have bravely gone to the showers in glorious, dignified defiance?"

We are not at that point yet in this country where we should have to worry about such things, but at this point, anyone who cannot see the growing parallels between then and now are simply not paying attention. While it may not come to such extremes, it is definitely going to get a lot worse, and unsafe for those not willing to go along with the game plan.

[foreigncorrespondent]

63. Nope.

The people who leave actually have a dream of a better life for themselves and their family, and the smarts to realize they can do their fighting from abroad.

[TechBear_Seattle]

10. I am openly gay, openly atheist, openly liberal

The way the country has been going under Bush, I fear I might not have a choice about leaving the country. Assuming, of course, that I don't wait so long that I no longer have the choice.

[murray hill farm]

14. Well...just in case u ever do decide to leave..and i keep saying this

GET YOUR PASSPORT now!! And get one for every member of your family..and tell your friends. A passport is good insurance that when you want to get out/if you ever want to get out, you can do it. As our rights are stripped...and it looks like it is more of that stripping going on every day, i believe that a passport..will no longer remain as one of our rights..and especially when and if we are ever "attacked" again...So just in case...get your passports now...please.

[enid602]

17. Kahlo

In the words of Freida Kahlo (wearing a 'death to the CIA' T-shirt, in the Zocalo just a few days before her death: "I am Mexican, I am a lesbian, I am a communist and a Jew."

[Extend a Hand]

18. For Democrats who leave the country

Good Luck. Please keep in touch. Stay involved. Support the cause with you donations

And by the way, should we loose before I feel I must throw in the towel, or should the nuts in charge start a draft...
can my kid come stay with you?

I don't think we should condemn those people that choose to leave what is for them an untenable situation.

If you want someone to righteously condemn. Condemn those in power that are on a daily basis chipping away at our freedoms.

Condemn those that are destroying our manufacturing base, sending jobs overseas, an consigning even more families to poverty.

Right NOW, those with substantial resources are protecting themselves. Not by physically leaving but by moving their assets out of the country.

[Zodiak]

24. Kudos for an excellent post

I cannot imagine a single expatriot who leaves this country in disgust who wuld not extend a hand to refugees who fled the same country for the same reason.

[driver8]

48. Excellent post! You are absolutely right. We all have our

reasons for leaving or staying. Those who choose to leave should not be judged by those who decide to stay.

We still have the "freedom" to decide where we wish to live, don't we??

[question everything]

61. Oh, I do not condemn anyone and certainly would not refer

to anyone who leaves as a coward.

I just want them to think that whatever they are upset about, that if they stay and fight we have a better chance to correct. Yes, I know, the say after the election is a depressing one. And I have lived through too many days like that.

But after mourning for a few days, we should be able to "snap out of it" and get up and resolve to work hard to get people to vote.

From reading the posts above our main problem is that we are divided. Sure, we are much too educated and intelligent to be pacified with the "Me Tarzan, You Jane" approach of the Republican. But when all is said and done and our party does have a candidate - we have to get out and vote.

Politics is the art of compromising. We will never be happy with our elected officials. But we can work so that we will be heard. That our concerns will make their way into policies. But to get there we need to have our elected officials in Congress and in the White House. And voting for Nader, for example, in 2000 may have felt good, but we are still paying for this and will for at least three more years.

[Kashka-Kat]

20. I ain't going anywhere... but it doesn't hurt to have a passport ready

JUST IN CASE.

[Popol Vuh]

26. Good post question everything

I myself too am so disgusted and alarmed at what I see happening to America that I entertain the logic of leaving while we still have the chance to.

But then I stop and think how easy is it to slap down these corporate fascists who are eroding America. Despite the wealth and despite their propaganda media machine. Not only are we still the many and they the few --but-- we still posses the one most critical element that their power is totally reliant upon -- our labor.

"In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds however, the timid join him, for then it cost nothing to be a patriot" -- Mark Twain

I myself personally believe that the only way we can have the desired affect we wish; is to organize a sizable percentage of the working poor and middle class in this country to take away the one thing they must have from us in order to support their power -- our labor.

Labor (as you know) is the bases of all wealth and without it there can be no wealth, and without wealth the powerful are no longer powerful.

You want to see the poor and middle class slap silly the powerful? Than all we have to do is simply all come together in solidarity and give a big nation wide fuck-you to the corporations and walk out in a national general strike.

You want to see the arrogant oligarchy in this country have a fucking cow? Do a nation wide general strike and I guarantee you you'll see a spectacle you'll never forget.

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. —Such has been the patient sufferance of these hard working poor and middle class Americans; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their current Systems of Government. The progressing history of the present United States Government is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having a progressive direct object to establish an absolute Tyranny over these poor and middle class Americans for the benefit of the corporate Oligarchy.

:rant:

[windbreeze]

42. When Reagan became determined to break the air controller's union

I told my husband...every union in this country, no matter how big and how small, should strike, in support of the Air Controllers, for at least one 24 hour period...because IF they don't...it is the beginning of the end for unions...

I couldn't agree with you more....Shut this country down...lock, stock and barrel..the message would be received loud and clear...but the longer people wait...the harder it will be to do...should have been done all those years ago...but people never dreamed what this bunch really had in store for us..now we see...
wb

[Popol Vuh]

52. Thanks windbreeze

You know........Its still not too uncommon to hear about what Reagan did to the air controller's union in my monthly union meetings and while at labor rallies.

Its very painful for me to see what's happening to our country, especially to our poor & middle class. And I often find it very frustrating (very frustrating) that only a very small percentage of people have both the vision enough and the willingness enough to step up to the plate and use by far the most effective means we as the common folk collectively posses -- the use, or should I say the withholding, of our collective labor.

An act such as a mass nation wide general strike could have such a profound effect in favor of us working folks that I will go so far as to submit to you that we could bring about such major changes as the re-classifying of corporations back to their original status and re-outlaw their lobbying of government -- not to mention many other things. That's the kind of power we posses with our collective labor. But unfortunately I guess too many people are still not willing to step up to the plate and rock the boat.

[question everything]

62. I wonder about that now

Look how car manufacturing jobs are moving from Michigan to the south. Why? Because people there are not unionized and they need the jobs.

There are too many hungry people in this country who will take the jobs that labor will boycott. Solidarity evaporated during the 80s, when we start seeing the change in our economy from a manufacturing to a service one. The jobs that were not outsourced are in danger. Any sense of loyalty between employers and employees has long gone.

Too many workers have endured periods of unemployment and under employment and realize that they, and their families, should be their main concern. Some try to be self employed or to start a new business and consider all government regulations a hindrance. So they vote Republicans.

The Democratic party has yet to understand these changes and to address the concerns of people like that. No union, but a measure of job stability and, most important, access to health care that is not tied to one's job.

[Fiendish Thingy]

27. Many people have come to the US seeking a better life...

...and should not be judged for the reasons (social, economic, political) they choose to leave their homelands. Now the time has come when many may leave the US for the same reason- to seek a better life, to live where your vote is counted, the press is still free, war is a last resort, and the government is competent enough to protect you from predictable disasters (i.e. hurricanes, bird flu, etc).

I've got another couple of years of fight left in me, but if, despite my/our best efforts, corruption continues and the corrupt are not held accountable, elections continue to be stolen, Executive branch crimes go unpunished, my tax dollars continue to be used to support an illegal war, including torture, and the Constitution continues to be shredded, then I will emigrate, for my family's sake, and for my own peace of mind.

[OnionPatch]

40. Your view about it

is about the same as mine. I have a daughter and her life to think about.

I get tempted to go sometimes too, but I know I'll stay for as long as I can. I do feel that I may have to draw a line at some future point, though.

[peacetalksforall]

29. What is best for the children vs singles -

Should children leave or stay to learn why there is a fight going on and whether they are going to put on their headphones or try to help?

Every single decision we have to make is getting harder and harder.

From -
How to stay civil when your own people are trying to destroy you and your country and the people of designated other countries.

To -
Whether to believe Dem leaders.

To -
Leaving the country.







This is our country, too. They - who condemn Muslim and Jewish zealots but promote Christian ones at home - hijacked our country. Our country that stood for freedom of speech, for pluralism, for separation of church and state for civic rights.

[peacetalksforall]

30. May I suggest a distinction in what you said -

"This is our country, too. They - who condemn Muslim and Jewish zealots but promote Christian ones at home - hijacked our country. Our country that stood for freedom of speech, for pluralism, for separation of church and state for civic rights."

They who condemn Jewish zealots?

I'm not sure who you mean by 'they'.

The White House is full of Jewish zealots - zealots for the Likud element of Israel - a very active and overloaded segment of the Pentagon, WH staff and Cabinet, and dozens of affiliated think tanks and outsourced operations who operate for the Repub Party. In addition to the Republican Party agenda to promote all things and people of right wing Israel and partnering with them in a wide scope of operations.

Then, there is the Republican Party voting base - some of whom condemn Muslim and Jewish people among nearly all other foreigners.

There is a dual juggling act going on by Republicans.

I remember my amazement when Robertson and Falwell who I always recognized as bigoted against Jews all of a sudden are claiming them as best buddies. The transformation stunned me. I wish I could remember the year. Ever since the Republican Party went after this religious element and won them over with promises dear to their heart because they need their votes - they (the Party) have accepted Israel right wing operatives to participate in running the U.S. particularly the Pentagon and the Intelligence.

I'm not sure how to say yes or no to your statement.

I agree with the rest - I think we have to stay, but leaving has become a fantasy of escape because the real world has become a day and night nightmare.

[question everything]

35. I was thinking of the settlers in the Occupied territories

and, please, let's not turn this thread into an I/P one..

Many of whom came to Israel from this country but kept their American citizenship so that in the event that their activities caused the destruction of the State of Israel, they will always have a place to go back.

They are as zealots as the Muslims and the Christians who claim to get their marching order from their god and thus have a permission to ignore the secular laws of the land.

Robertson and Falwell and Dobson and Reed are as bad as the Jihadists that were portrayed yesterday on PBS Frontline http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/front/view/#rest who claim that god is on their side and in its name they are killing others.

Remember when Coulter wanted, perhaps still does, to convert to Christianity the people of Iraq?

[peacetalksforall]

43. OK, I understand. Thanks. Yes, we are watching a my God is better

than your God. The number of people who will cancel each other for the trip to Heaven by denying the other is amazing.

[Der Blaue Engel]

37. I'm only leaving when they start rounding us up

I'll join the resistance from abroad if it comes to that; can't be much help when we're all in Gitmo. But until then, they aren't getting my country.

[depakid]

44. Long term structural problems

Can't be "fixed" in the time that's left before oil and natural gas start to get really expensive. The US is unprepared politically to do what it would take to amend the Constitution to bring honesty and fainess back to the process- and people are unprepared culturally (in most places) to engage in rational powerdown. The next decade or two are going to see a perfect storm over the economy and major parts of our ecology- and when that starts to hit, most parts of the US are the LAST places any of you want to be.

Personally, I'm getting my degree and finding a way out.

[cindyw]

46. Plus, you can't go to Canada anymore, A!

[Obamarama]

64. Sorry, I'm still planning to leave....

My mom's family (French Jews) fled literally a month before HItler took France. They were among the very lucky since my grandfather had contacts in academia here in US.

For the past four years or so, my mom has been telling me that a lot of the things she saw unfold as a young woman in Nazi Europe are similar to things she sees in this country today. It chills her to the bone.

I really feel history is repeating itself here in pretty short order. You all stay and fight if you want. I'm listening to my mom, thank you very much.

[SeaBob]

66. going

where are you going, which country? I have been looking for a place to retire myself

[SeaBob]

65. staying

that might have been true in 2000 but now its to late. The system is to broken to fix