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dave123williams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 02:53 AM
Original message
Burning embassies over a CARTOON? WTF?

Does anybody else get a feeling that something is *seriously* out of whack here? Violent rioting over an editorial cartoon? There's GOT to be more to the story than upset over blasphemy...is this rage over Iraq spilling over? Anticipating Iran boiling over? I'm not buying the idea that a small Danish newspaper can cause multi-country riots with a thoughtless jab...I'm just not.

Something about this stinks on ice, but I can't quite put my finger on it just yet. I'm open to ideas, or links to them.
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EST Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 03:00 AM
Response to Original message
1. Get to know a few "winger" repug fundies-
all will become clear. (Think of Pat Robertson...)
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Chrisduhfur Donating Member (163 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
37. I think these guys may be worse
I am not religious but I am not anti-religion either. So I think I have a pretty unbiased view of things. To me it seems as if the violent Christians are more of a lunatic fringe but with the Muslims they seem to see it as being acceptable. Don't get me wrong, I think the vast majority of Christians are intolerant closed minded uhhhh heh *somethings* but most of them would not resort to violence. However, looking at previous events it looks as if Muslims are more than willing to participate and support acts of violence.

Don't believe me? Ask a group of Christians what they think of the abortion clinic bombings then ask a group of Muslims what they about <insert bombing of choice>. Any thoughts on what the results would be?
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EST Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #37
45. You make a good point.
I suspect the biggest difference may result from the people, rather than the religion they adhere to. I know that is a foolish statement, chicken or egg first, and people will invent the religion that supports the picture they have of the world, but there are, indeed, shades of difference, at least historically recently.
When I try to wrap my brain around the genocide that our forebears wreaked on the previous occupants of this continent and realize that, for the most part, they called themselves "Christians" and dehumanized the 'natives' into savages, vicious animals that deserved only extermination.

What marvelous, awful creatures we humans are! As have so many before me, I despair of any chance that we may improve. Somehow, the population seems to end up with nearly half being haters.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 03:03 AM
Response to Original message
2. We underestimated the depth that the Islams hold in their
religious beliefs.

Can you imagine if Muslims of the South paraded an image of Christ in a similar vein?
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 04:30 AM
Response to Reply #2
13. it would hardly result in a similar display
1) "Christians in the South" are far from being representative for Christianity as a whole
2) Other Christians would hardly go and burn Embassies
3) provocative pictures of Jesus circulate already all over the Internet even if teh vsast majority of them is produced in the West
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Harper_is_Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
34. So...Muslims should be like Christians in terms of
what offends them? Is that your point?
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
29. A mosque or two would be bombed in the middle of the
night, because the thug doing the bombing would be embarrassed to show his face.

The occasional Sikh or Arab would be attacked.

The bomber would be caught, and vilified in the press. His actions would be decried as wrong and unprincipled; an afterthought would be, "This makes us look backward." It would be hard to tell if it would be Xians qua Xians, or Xians as Americans, that lead the verbal assault. Those that attacked Arabs and Sikhs would be arrested and charged, then tried.

There might be a few picket lines or demonstrations. Unless the protesters were attacked, it would not become violent. If it became violent, the protesters would be put down and arrested.

And I'm assuming that the cartoons would be worse. Much worse. Because I've seen some truly mocking, cutting, cruel, and sarcastic representations of the J-C god and of jesus.
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laruemtt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 03:05 AM
Response to Original message
3. i think you've got a great point -
it's not like that cartoon happened in isolation. it's gotta be in reaction to the u.s. trouncing the entire arab world. they see their entire way of life being bombed out of existence and i cannot imagine the helplessness they must feel. kind of how we're feeling here now with the way *bushco is taking over our way of life multiplied by a million bombs.............
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Yes. Where profits and capitalism are the goals
and spirituality is ignored.
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inthebrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 03:24 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Your onto something
Yet it is more than the bombs. Bush uses Buzzwords in describing the war in Iraq to garner support from his religio bigot base. One of these words happened to be "Crusade".

Most of us here that and go, "Oh well, that's strange.".

The religio crazies in this country know what he is alluding to. It drives the arab world nutz as well!!
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #3
31. Let the offenders mount their own defense.
Edited on Sun Feb-05-06 11:58 AM by igil
I have no stomach for trying to find excuses that I would find palatable.

Understanding means not trying to figure out what reasons I think would justify their actions, but what they think are sufficient reasons. So far, they've been very clear. They possess language; some speak English. Moreover, I'll take the initial proclamations as probative, and not wait for their advocates to figure out what will get them a hearing and carefully fashion their post hoc honor- and reputation-saving excuses and reasons for a Western audience.

Our displacing their anger to suit our norms is a sure way to not understand their outlook (by which I mean an intellect-based process), and is deeply ethnocentric; after understanding, we can work on whether or not a deeper, sensitive, more emotional "understanding" in the sense "appreciation" is appropriate in this context, and how--or whether--to reach an accommodation.
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Llewlladdwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
39. You folks just don't get it.
There certainly is a 'context' in which the reaction to the cartoons occured. It's called Islam. I guess the subjugation of women and execution of homosexuals common in the Umma is in reaction to US policy as well.
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oioioi Donating Member (320 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 03:16 AM
Response to Original message
5. "Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?" - Johnny Rotten
Iran threatens to cancel European contracts in cartoons row

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/story.asp?j=73437038&p=7343734x

Gold Trades Near 25-Year High as Dispute With Iran Escalates

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000082&sid=a.4MxoNEQUPU&refer=canada

Oil and the dollar

http://washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20060204-103047-9786r.htm
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Nabia2004 Donating Member (566 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 03:20 AM
Response to Original message
6. Step out of the box: Who has the most to gain?
People are being manipulated here. After five years of the Bush Crusade, covert operatives can easily work the people into a frenzy.

...and the PNAC marches on.
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oioioi Donating Member (320 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Sanctity of marriage, War on Christmas, animal-human hybrids, yada yada..
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INDIA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 03:33 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. Covert operatives?????
Edited on Sun Feb-05-06 03:46 AM by India3
You are stupid. Simple as that. COVERT OPERATIVES????? YES, ITS BUSH AND SHARON AT WORK, COVERT OPERATIVES!!!! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!! Conspiracy!!!! You are a joke. Have a nice life.


On edit: I am drunk as hell and angry for no reason. Sorry if that was too mean, but you're still stupid.
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Nabia2004 Donating Member (566 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 03:54 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Is that the best you can do?
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dave123williams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 04:15 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. The fact of the matter is, just like me, you don't really know.
Edited on Sun Feb-05-06 04:18 AM by dave123williams
(on edit - noted that you're drunk; please read below when sober.)

When I see the administration ramping up war rhetoric again, while there's simultaneously embassies on fire in Damascus (wow, what a wild co-inky-dink) I'm of the suspicion that our administration, who have made their bones playing on fear, might have had something to do with it. Covert operatives? Where might we as a country have used them before?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvador_Allende

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ngo_Dinh_Diem

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0871138549/002-6161523-2644821?v=glance&n=283155

(This one's quite interesting)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-Services_Intelligence

...and that's just off the top of my head. Our history of protecting our dimly percieved national interests worldwide is long, and dirty. It's also OK with me, because it's just a simple truism that the modern nation-state will play hardball in this manner. We do it, the Soviets did it - everybody does it. That doesn't mean that it's not shortsighted, and it sure doesn't make it right. It's just the way of the world, unfortunate as that is. The idea that covert ops don't have a significant impact on the course of world events is fatuous bordering on puerile.

What concerns me, why I posted this thread in the first place, is that people burning embassies to the ground over an editorial cartoon just doesn't add up.

Here's what I fear:

They want a piece of Iran; we all know it. They want war without end, because it means *power* without end. The rationale is spreading democracy and freedom, but that's just rhetoric - the concrete action taken as the result of the rhetoric involves a lot of ugliness. Oh, it also involves OUR the Federal Government underwriting another $120 billion in largely un-accounted military expenditures this year alone. Iran would be a boatload more money from the trough; fuck the consequences.

This whole thing *could* really just be spontaneous demonstrations by a lot of people who are just pissed about what they think is blasphemy. The other possibility is that they're being deliberately whipped in to a frenzy to get Americans scared, and ready to fight.

Which is more likely?

We'll soon see.
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #9
22. Did you read the
Quadrilennial Defense Review? (Which mentioned more reliance on special forces and psychological warfare?)

Or did you see the recent news story where the Pentagon admitted that they plant PSYOPS stories in foreign media (which then get picked up by US media)?


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JohnnyRingo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 04:13 AM
Response to Original message
11. Imagine if someone drew Jesus with Ted Kennedy's face
Or God in the image of Hillary and Michael Moore as Moses.
The artist would be shot long before anyone set a fire.

That said..No one should tell me I have to adhere to their religion's laws.
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 04:32 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. already been done and worse
just google "jesus cartoons" and choose "images"
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dave123williams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 05:32 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. You're off base there; the Muslims have a 'thing' about iconic imagery.
Edited on Sun Feb-05-06 05:35 AM by dave123williams
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. That's the Taliban, not "the Muslims" nt
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dave123williams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. Fair enough, but...it is scripture for Muslims...fundie Muslims take it...

...maybe a little to literally.
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #25
44. Isn't that the problem
Edited on Sun Feb-05-06 04:35 PM by Snivi Yllom
fundamentalists taking pages in a book too literally?
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 04:49 AM
Response to Original message
15. Nothing is as it seems.
Peace.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 04:55 AM
Response to Original message
16. Cigars
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Despite the evilness of the Bush WH, the secrecy, and, just stupid policies, this idea that they have something to do with this is just a little out in left field. For this to be a conspiracy, you have to also believe that those rioting are also on the Bush payroll, as well as the Syrian government doing very little to prevent it.

What we have here is good old fashioned lunacy and extremism.
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dave123williams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. I dunno; what set me off was the fact that Syria's a police-state.

Nobody has violent riots there, ever. Not unless it's sanctioned.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Perhaps...
South Africa was a police-state at one time, and there were riots there all the time. There are several other examples of this being true.

I think it is a stretch (and that is being nice) that the US or any other entity, including Iran, is responsible. The only ones responsible are the extremists.
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dave123williams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 05:37 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Hmmmm. Well, who's not an extremist these days?
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. I would say the majority of the world.
However, it is the extremists who make the news.
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dave123williams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #16
26. Right; and as George Carlin so adequately put it....

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Other times, it's a big, brown cock with one end all wet and chewed.".

For me to be on the same page with you, I'd only have to believe that the religious fundamentalists who are rioting aren't easily manipulated to violence, that the Syrian government doesn't routinely crush public demonstrations (as you know it does) and there's tens of thousands of loonies spontaneously burning embassies because of a Danish political cartoon with no circulation whatsoever in Syria, with nobody whatsoever riling them up.

Left field, indeed.

You seem to give a lot of leeway to people who a) operate in secret, b) 9 times out of 10 act in direct opposition to their flowery rhetoric and c) believe earnestly that Freedom and Democracy begin where the last depleted uranium shell burst, and that these admirable ideas take root no more firmly than in the soil of bombed out de-militarized zones.

Maybe you're right; maybe I'm giving them too much credit. Then again, maybe Bush is a zealous puppet not really in control of his own policies.

People here go on and on about PNAC; you know, the funny thing is - Bush is about the only one of them who wasn't a signatory to their originally stated goals:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century#Bush_administration
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UL_Approved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 07:05 AM
Response to Original message
24. This may seem a bit off, but this explains a lot
I haven't posted in months here, so I may be behind on some lingo and inside jokes.

I got busy with other things in life for a while, and got out of the community. On Saturday, I finally decided its time to come back.

I've seen several items of news concerning the cartoon caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad, but the things that got my attention were the burning of the Danish embassy and the mass call for violence that have come out of the past few days.

A site I found when looking for the actual cartoons (I wanted to see what the uproar was all about)is http://www.milblog.org and this site includes some items which may offend DU viewers. I want to warn about this because there are links to LGF and Human Events Online.

At the time of this post, the first article in the blog, simply titled Blackmail, links to a very good post on what is happening here. The basic synopsis of the associated article is that we are seeing a call to arms as a way of playing the developed and established propaganda strings to unify the Muslim world. Multiculturalism is discussed heavily, and the modern view of respecting subcultures within an encompassing multi-racial/ethnic/religious superculture is brought under scrutiny. Direct link: http://www.proteinwisdom.com/index.php/weblog/entry/19791/

Your thread comments about something more sinister or involved here are quite true. It has been stated that these comics were released in September of 2005. Only now are they coming under jihadist scrutiny. One must raise some questions as to the validity of these accusations. The Yahoo! News article which discusses the search for the Syrian weekly gossip magazine Shihane editor Jihad Momani and others associated with this chain of events shows some serious political artillery being brought to the front. The sad part of this is the quote made in Shihane:

The cartoons had appeared along an editorial by Momani that read:

"Muslims of the world, be reasonable... what brings more prejudice against Islam, these caricatures or pictures of a hostage-taker slashing the throat of his victim in front of the cameras or a suicide bomber who blows himself up during a wedding ceremony in Amman?"

This entire parade of hate is an attempt to gain control over Muslim populations from within. There are several reasons for this. The U.S. is getting underway with conquering Muslim countries. Palestine has had elections and has made choices leading to a moderation of politics. This comes at the same time that advances in technology are allowing the citizenry of these nations to access foreign media services.

The end result of these factors is simple: the so-called "hard-liners" are losing control. They are getting exposed for what they are: radical, murderous bastards who corrupt religion and society to suit their needs. These people are part of a worldwide campaign to institute religious theocracies aimed at subversion and domination of the world. This sounds like something out of a comic book, but consider the evidence. In the United States, we saw a massive shift to the political right in the early 1980's. The Iranian embassy was taken over in 1979. In recent years, we see radicals elected to political office in Israel. All of these leaders hammer people with a rhetoric of absolutism, sacrifice to the state for common good, violent military action, and a facade of religious justification. These protests could have come out months ago, but they didn't. Every one of these "protests" are spurned by radicals who see their power base collapsing.

The involvement of the United States in Afghanistan and Iraq is our own dirty little version of this maneuvering. The United States became very wealthy during the Clinton years, and a large portion of that wealth was in the hands of average people, not the rich and their chosen enforcers and acolytes. The Internet also was transformed from an obscure communication medium for scientists and researchers into a mass electronic media for the masses. Bush came in to restore some "balance" to this trend, wherein the goals of concentrating wealth in the hands of the few and an all-out war on information ensued. Canada is also moving to the right with political leaders planning on reducing civil rights, which is also a facet of all other leaders in this movement.

There is a time for everything, and this is shown quite clearly. We have some very complex forms of dividing and conquering people in the world of today. Wedge issues, political multicasting, and other forms of tribalizing our society are starting to take their toll. Liberal and conservative are no longer united fronts. Many camps of liberal exists and even fight amongst each other for influence. The GOP is now fracturing under the strain of the new war debts, immigration issues, and mass corruption allegations in the U.S. congress. And these are just the examples in our country. France saw huge riots from angry Muslims over social conditions in France. The Muslims were segregated in French society and were taken advantage of. A breaking point was reached and riots ensued. These Muslim areas were left as festering homogeneous pockets of ethnic and racial background. Other countries have similar areas of geographical caste segregation. In the U.S., we have Spanish speaking neighborhoods that could very well be extensions of other countries in Central and South America. These people are left poor and united in their anger over unfair treatment. Some points in the future will lead to riots or other unrest.

The whole point of these situations is to prevent change. This is the one thing that is a threat to most world leaders, and has been since humans first walked this earth. The significant difference is that we now have a widespread method of distributing information and of collaboration which was not possible even 15 years ago. World leaders in very corrupt areas such as the Middle East and South America are seeing the end for themselves. Either consciously or subconsciously, they are all pushing the armageddon button as fast as they can. Their existence is limited as long as progress holds, and their only collective hope for survival is the destruction of progress. All people that we see have certain moral and social traditions. The cross-comparison of these traditions is forming a melting pot of ethics and a code of conduct. This is replacing old tribal, ethnic, and religious doctrines. The letter of the law is becoming moderated to the least infringing and detrimental set of values to all people involved. Islamic countries have religious fundamentalists who seek to have absolute authority over people and their life decisions. This regional trend is squarely clashing with western and worldwide values. In a desperate attempt to hold their established grounds, these radicals are pushing for war and mass executions to gain the will of the people back.

More and more, the autocratic decrees and edicts are tending toward self-destructive ends. These people would rather see their societies perish than advance. Whether it be George W. Bush, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, Osama Bin Laden, Ariel Sharon, Yassir Arafat, or Kim Jong-Il, these people see the end of their reign. They cannot reconcile freedom with existence. They will not give up ground to rationalism. Their existence is rooted in mass deception and corrupt desires.

A discussion of these elements could not be complete without some reference to multinational corporations. These entities are reaching across national boundaries and are doing the bidding and are also having influence on leaders who want oppressive societies. The battle for oil in the Middle East is one front for the current executive branch in the United States to keep control over its population. Common leadership of major oil companies and energy companies and the Office of the President in the U.S. are well-known after key facts have been brought to light. The response of these leaders has been to silence critics rather than openly deny accusations. This is exactly what has happened in the Muslim countries of the world with such things as Salman Rushdie's book "The Satanic Verses" and of any criticism of governments in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, or other countries with similar ruling styles. In many of these same nations, oil, natural gas, and even water are all up for grabs by corporate interests and these same interests act as enforcers for the corruption that goes on in places like this.

As pertains to the matter at hand, radical clerics are trying to spin this into the Islamic version of 9/11. They want this to be the big disaster that gets over a billion Muslims up in arms. They want to drive this to armed conflict because they want to secure their survival. If they cannot destroy social progress sources such as Western Europe and North America, then their political lifetimes will have expired within one to two generations. This goes as much for Middle Eastern Countries as it does for the West.

We have enough on our plates to worry about with radical clerics like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell. We have enough to worry about with a president so bent on control that he intentionally sacrificed the city of New Orleans and ALL OF ITS CITIZENS for political gains (breaking strong Democratic voting blocks, routing a city that held free blacks for hundreds of years, etc.) by not allowing federal resources to be put into action and by interfering with local and state disaster agencies all while he could have saved the city, as had happened in Florida only one year previous.

I hope that this can be of some use to people, and I hope I get some comments. I at least hope that I get some people to check out links provided in this post. These are opinions and observations I hold, and I do want clarifications where necessary and further information if people have it. One observation that I have made is that left, center, and right wing blogs all over the place are in agreement that this mass protest is a sham. It is becoming clear that a common thread of worldwide organization exists for this movement. And dare I say that the accusations of all world leaders against other leaders are mostly true and that these accusations are geared at having a real line of propaganda with which to polarize and unite selected groups of potential support. After all, homosexuals are openly and routinely executed in the Middle East, women are routinely raped, tortured, and killed in the name of sexual misconduct, and dissent is a religious sin. But when looks below the surface, in the United States we see that homosexuals are killed and discriminated against (Matthew Shephard) and that women are killed (abortion clinic bombings) as well. The United States wants to conquer Iraq, Afghanistan, and any other country that it can. So does the U.K., France, Germany, China, Russia and Japan. But when we look at the end result of Muslim countries, we see the mass desire for conquest from religious radicals in terms of cultural conquest. The list goes on and on, and we never will get to its totality until we get information shared, cross-analyzed, and distributed to the masses.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. I Think It's Fairly Accurate
I believe, well, suspect may be a better word, that there are some leaders here in the west who see radical Islam as as large a threat as you say and are whipping up conservative Christians into a frenzy *in part* to have our own little idealogical army to counter them.
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dave123williams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. So, you see it all coming apart at the seams...

I can't say as I blame you; we seem to be hop-skip-and-a-jumping blindly from bad to worse in this whole thing. I have to admit, I hadn't taken a step back and seen it as *everyone* in power clinging desparately on to it...that makes some kind of sense, though. I don't see the whole 'brutal repression' thing happening here, quite yet. I do get a strong whiff of it, though.

I was raised Jewish, and most of my religious upbringing focused on a sociological understanding of what went wrong in Germany. When I see parrallels here in the States, it scares the shit out of me. People cheering on the quashing of dissent as patriotic, folks who say 'it's ok if they listen in on my calls, because I've personally got nothing to hide.' without realizing what the very serious and real downside is of that kind of complacency. People who think it can't happen here are just willfully playing the naif, weather they know it or not. I'm probably over-projecting the current circumstance (I hope and pray that's the case), but the way - the plan and the methods with which the establishment clings to power in the US seems to me to be shortsighted and dangerous.

I don't know who it was that first said that the only thing we learn from history is that we don't learn from history. I think that what Bush does is just plain wrong; he doesn't think that there are any consequences to demonizing, that nothing bad comes of demagogeury, that playing to base fear in people won't reap the whirlwind.
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UL_Approved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Some further explanations
I can see how you would be particularly sensitized to the NeoCon shenanigans of today with your upbringing. I agree 100% about the whole deal, and September 11th was the American Reichstag in my opinion; omission is commission if it accomplishes your ends. The main theme of my original post was that these issues are total political tools. Iran is not holding its power structure together like it used to. Cracks will form, and moderation will eventually ensue (even if it takes 2000 years, like Western Europe). By most accounts, the worst abuses came from Stalinist Russia. Conservative figures place the total death count at about 30 million, nearly 5 times the unbelievable toll of destruction that Hitler's machine managed to produce. He held power with authority beyond pale. He sought to quintessentially manipulate and machine the people of his nation and culled entire regions that failed to meet his specification. At the end of his tyranny, he was dying of a terminal illness that doctors either could not or would not treat. His last act of desperate spite was to order all 2.5 million doctors in Russia killed. This is the acts that we see today.

Do you think that we actually WANT to develop oil in Iraq? Or do we NOT want to develop it in hopes of driving up price and reducing the overall supply to gain total control over groups? Or did our foolish leaders get so caught up in the moment that they actually bumbled their efforts as bad as it would seem? And these Islamic nations, with religious absolutism strewn about like manure, covering every facet of society: where is the sustainability of these conditions? Where is the breaking point?

Every time I make the comments, I risk being branded some racist. In Israel, radicals have had control over that government for years. They only made up about 20 to 22 percent of the overall vote, but this gained them power. They got an even slimmer mandate, less than half, than Bush for being elected. And to make matters worse, the modern state of Israel was started with a terrorist campaign. The King David Hotel WAS bombed by radical Jewish extremists. But in the end, this only was an attempt by one group of bullies to take power from another group of bullies. We must remember that the British really had no interest in helping the Jews that were decimated in WWII and by all accounts wanted to finish the job. And the radicals that founded what is now Israel wanted a state of their own, but they wanted it taken out of the hands of people who had 1000 years of continuous settlement there. And at present, a lot of the sacred cow guilt trip has been placed on critics of Israeli government policy. Jews are just as overly sensitive to caricatures as the Muslims when it suits their political agendas (or rather their leaders' agendas).

The list of abuses, counter abuses, and complaints about those abuses goes on and on. In the background of all of these items are the people who end up suffering under the abuse regardless of the boss at hand. The Jews and Muslims who have died around the world from history's dawn until now are mostly comprised of victims of conquest, social inequity, and outright robbery. Christians are right up in this group in terms of unnecessary loss along side most of the other religions the world has seen. The single most important fact of life is that every action has its own merits and has no ties to fortune, fame, or legend. Wrath is an evil in this world, I am sure of it. Generalization and segregation as universal practices are also evils of our existence. Why people get into such modes of existence is perhaps the secret of life. But abuse is abuse, and as much as people try to hide behind doctrines of faith and of tradition the end results are the same.

For the post that I presented first, I may be underestimating the boldness of the gains that jihadists and NeoCons wish to achieve, but they stand to lose all of their power if moderate societies come to fruition. Absolutism and hard-line agendas are an evil in this world, and in many religions and science, these practices run contrary to reality. Osama Bin Laden drank together in college, corresponded when they were both starting in the oil business, and now subvert and dictate together on the world stage. More comradery exists between opposing world leaders than between a leader and corresponding subjects. This is due to job function and common frame of reference as being leaders, but it also stems from a power club mentality. The world wide shadow government, or NWO, as some may think of it, is really not this monolithic entity totally organized and bent on uniform and universal world domination. It is a consensus and arrangement of convenience much like the business ties of bank robbers. They all want the money, the power, the fame, and any other acquirable booty they can tangibly steal. But each one wants it all, and each one will stab the others in the back if it becomes convenient. This is a good way to look at worldwide government in that it explains how dictatorships come into being, and how they survive in the face of mass opposition both internal and external.

One thing stands out now from this trend. The majority of people don't want to think. They just want to scrape by, even if they can do better. They don't have any real desire to become anything and they certainly don't want to lead. But when they realize that leadership is not an option, but is a necessity, then they take the steps to make things work. The presence of the Internet is the single greatest threat to big man way of governance. It also represents the single most powerful weapon against oppression and social abuses that earn the wealth for established power bases. This makes the status quo VERY uneasy. There is a definite war in progress now, and it could be won by either side. If the common people cannot get enough opposition together, then we will be under dictatorship and ultimately a complete collapse of society which follows from the lack of permitted standards of living. Your observations about how Bush is seizing power like Hitler did are quite accurate, but he may not even need to go so far as to disband congress; Bush could simply reduce all opposition below a simple majority and then outlaw a certain political party. Discussions of disenfranchising district federal courts is another avenue of these people.

If we are to truly put these stories in the past, then we need to take care to not be tied to symbols and icons; we must follow facts and unique circumstances as they unfold. The banners, slogans, and platforms of the past are guides, but are not the sum total of what is to come. Be careful as you proceed, but be most careful in assuring that you do proceed.
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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #24
32. Good post!
This really stood out for me as the heart of the matter.

"their only collective hope for survival is the destruction of progress."

What all fundamentalists have in common is an aversion to progress. This is not so much of a "clash of civilizations" as it is a war against progress and modernity. In my opinion, the Abrahamic religions no longer have a place in the modern world and we are seeing thier death throes. It make take hundreds of years, but eventually I think they will go the way of the Greco-Roman pantheons, the Druids, etc.

Yes there are still millions of adherents and believers, most of them kept that way out of ignorance. I believe that if we do not act now to stop the tide of rising religious fundamentalism, then human society had no chance.
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UL_Approved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. I fear that some cliches may be right
I may look bad about this, but it looks like Command and Conquer: Generals is the video game equivalent of the near future that we will see. In this game, the U.S. loses ground and a large amount of world holdings to terrorists. The Chinese come in and take over the terrorists, and they rise to the position of the dominant world superpower. This already seems to be the way things are headed.
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Harper_is_Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
33. I think it's over much more than just a cartoon
anyone who would characterize it that way is doing a great disservice to the truth.

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holdyourbreath Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
36. what's the big surprise? these people are crazy.
everyone wants to act all indignant. would you be indignant to an old person with alzheimers if they were rude and beligerent and threw stuff?

You don't fight insanity with principle.
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ISUGRADIA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
38. A picture is worth a thousand words
Look at the demonstrations against Salman Rushdie 15 years ago because of the book Satanic Verses. The man was in hiding for almost a decade because of the fattwa called against him.

I'm not surprised a cartoon could cause this kind of violent reaction.
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Julius Civitatus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
40. Muslim rioters just trashed a Catholic church in Beirut
according to CNN. After they burned the Danish embassy to the ground.

A cartoon about their prophet in a remote newspaper from a remote Scandinavian country sparks their rage all across. But they sure can defile and destroy symbols of other religions.

"Religion of peace"... sure, whatever.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
41. I read Limbaugh is putting out T-shirts with the offensive cartoon.
Leave it to the troglodytes to resort to bad taste.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
42. This is why
Separation of Church and State if FUCKIN' IMPORTANT!!!

Religions cannot be trusted to respect human rights!
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
43. majorly out of whack
There were no Amish barn burnings after Kingpin.

A few extremists acting like complete assholes with the result being an entire religion portrayed as violent.

Nice going.
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