Why Greens etc. are better than Democrats

[murdoch]

I am in my thirties and have followed politics in the US for a while. In all of that time, I have often heard Democrats and liberals say that rich people should pay higher taxes so we could have compassion for poor people and whatnot and let them have food and so forth. I have never ever, ever, ever heard from a Democratic politician that (what Keynes called) rentiers do not deserve what they have, and that all that they are doing is robbing working class people of the wealth they create.

An heir like Paris Hilton or the Walton or Coors heirs sit on their behinds and collect profit, rent and interest from people who do work. If we were on a tropical island and someone claimed they did not have to work and had some right at birth to live off of our work, we would laugh at them. In the US, that the idle class can feast off the working people is some sacrosanct right. As we become the first generation financially worse off than the last one, plunging from a 45 year "Cold War" into another 1984ish never-ending "war on terror", the corporate media says people like me, pointing out how rentiers are parasites are the crazy, out there ones.

We need Greens in office, Cindy Sheehan running against war-mongering Democrats and so forth because the Democratic leaderships speeches are a losing deal. The Democratic and AFL-CIO leadership are so far into selling out working people it's undeniable. People have never even heard about how they're being ripped off, the Democratic leadership acts like we're dogs begging for crumbs from the masters table.

[More Than A Feeling]

1. Here's a thread you might be interested in...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=332019&mesg_id=332019

[WildEyedLiberal]

2. Um, we need Greens so we can tax Paris Hilton?

Um, okay. You run with that platform, then.

[murdoch]

10. Huh? I said the Democrats are the ones who talk about taxing

I said the Democrats are the ones who talked about taxing, I don't know how that turned into Greens. The point is that the Walton heirs, the Coors heirs and whatnot are simply parasites on the people who create all of the wealth, the working people. While European working class parties talk about this, the Democrats never do. They just beg for crumbs from the table.

[WildEyedLiberal]

26. So, you want what exactly?

I assume you want these people's inheritance to be taxed, people like Paris Hilton or whoever.

[murdoch]

36. not really

I want rent, interest and especially profit to be abolished. I don't think the government will do this because the government exists to serve the interest of the rentiers. Of course, labor unions are the main force for working people in the tug-of-war between wages and profits. And only a rank and file led labor union can do this over the long term. If anything is done in the government, I think it is to stay out of the way of what is happening on the ground. I don't see taxes, activist government etc. as a solution, just the opposite.

And as I've said several times here, I've said very little about elections, it is all about the message. If the message doesn't matter, then who cares who wins, it is about as relevant as the difference between the Seahawks and Pittsburgh in that context.

[xultar]

3. Try this...

Http://www.GreenUnderground.com

[GreenPartyVoter]

4. I agree that we need progressives in office but the issue right now is and

has to be: election reform Until we overhaul the system we have no guarantee that our votes count or that the officials are not in the pocket of this, that, and the other corporation. To get better policies we need better policy makers, but to get better policy makers we need a better election system and we need to fix it one town, county, and state at a time.

Election reform: http://www.hostdiva.com/liberalchristians/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=116&Itemid=29

[Warpy]

5. In NM in 2004, Democrats got their votes in the national election

erased (but not in the local judge races). 17,000 of us were disenfranchised by Repug fraud.

Green voters at least got their votes counted.

[GreenPartyVoter]

28. Only because their numbers were too small to matter, I would think. If

they had been a threat to the Repubs taking that office I think their votes would have been monkeyed with as well.

Plus, too, it's ever so useful to keep the Greens and Dems arguing with each other.. gives the Repubs cover while they go around doing more sneaky stuff.

[murdoch]

18. What about the Mexicans?

In California, one out of five people is not a citizen. That means you only need two out of five people in California to support Arnold for him to win, even if 60% of the population is progressive, pro-labor and whatnot. While I do agree that the Republicans throw elections, and are gearing to throw even more with policies, Diebold etc., the most major way this is being done is by not allowing workers coming into the country to vote. Bush's so-called "amnesty" allows Mexicans to work, not to vote.

The above is facts. As far as my personal opinion, there are two separate issues, immigrant rights and immigrant numbers. I think anyone who immigrates to the US and has a job should be able to vote and have full rights. As far as how many can come in, I think that should be a consensus among voters. In my opinion, I don't think immigration numbers should be increased, they should be what they are now, perhaps even slightly less. But anyone who comes in and some employer hires should have full rights.

[GreenPartyVoter]

29. You raise a good point. I am not just talking about Diebold here but

that is a very important point and I am not sure how it should be dealt with. Maybe we need to go back to the drawing board in terms of determining what the right to vote means and who has it.

[Capn Sunshine]

42. Excuse me?

"One out of five is not a citizen"?
By what count? Xenophobia.com?

And who are YOU to dictate rights? My family members have been traveling freely in an area that has a "Border " in the middle of it for well over 250 years. Some are Mexican Citizens, some are American citizens. Let's not even talk about the rights of the Native Americans who have been doing the same thing for thousands of years.

Suddenly one day, a bunch of white guys swoop in with guns and invite their friends, and tell us they don't like our real estate law or method of title? And now I have to address YOU when I ask my cousin from Peubla to come visit?

Chupa mi nopale, blanquito.

[welshTerrier2]

24. "the" issue right now

the role of leaders should be to educate the populace and focus our attention on the choices before us and the directions they recommend ...

taking nothing whatsoever away from the critical issue of election reform, my view is that there is not a "the" issue ... for example, people are dying in Iraq ... the case to end the war must continue to be made ... we continue to allow big money to pervert our political institutions; our entire foreign policy is based on colonial gain ... this cannot continue ... global warming threatens all life on the planet; if we have not yet reached the point of no return we are likely to do so very soon ...

class divisions are worsening and our democracy may be at the point of greatest risk since the country was founded ...

to be sure, without fair elections, little else can be remedied ... but neither can we afford to focus on elections with a single, narrow vision ... the reforms we need can never be an either-or proposition ...

my point isn't that you've said otherwise ... my point is that we should never accept a "the" right issue ...

[GreenPartyVoter]

27. I see it as "the" issue though because without it how are we going to

get people to effect policy decisions such as you mentioned? That's my point. It isn't that I think there are no other important issues, it's that I don't see how we can fully address them without addressing the election reform issue first. So we need to keep making plans for all those other issues and have them ready to implement any time a window of opportunity opens but definitely keep slogging away at reforming the election system all the while. :)

[welshTerrier2]

35. i think we essentially agree ...

taking the case of focusing on election reform to the extreme, consider the following admittedly silly hypothetical ...

let's say we focussed all our energies, every waking moment, on bringing about fair elections ... and let's say we succeeded ...

we would still need to have a platform to run on ... it's perfectly reasonable to argue, as many have, that if we don't fix this corrupt elections system, the other issues really won't matter because we won't have the power in Congress to bring about the changes we seek ... on the other hand, if we don't continue the battle for the hearts and minds of the American people on many other important issues, we might not be able to have our views prevail even if our candidates were to be elected ...

again, i don't see election reform as being addressed "first"; i see it as critically important and i see it as one of a number of issues that must be addressed both immediately and simultaneously ...

[GreenPartyVoter]

37. Yes, I think we pretty much agree. We can make prgoress without

election reform, but we can make more with it. But we have to keep on chugging along either way. :)

[Terran1212]

6. I don't think Greens could win Presidency YET, but...

I'd say a large portion of America would be comfortable with people as Left as them.

We need to get them in Congressional seats in places like California and New York instead of the incumbent Dems. Then get a Dem President and have Greens slowly take Congress.

[LynneSin]

7. Right now Greens aren't going to help me get repukes out of office

and with the sketchy voting systems throughout this country there's no way I'd vote for a Green even if my other option was a repuke and Joe Lieberman. At least Lieberman would support Harry Reid as the Majority Leader

[murdoch]

31. Why all this talk of elections?

Everyone in this thread is talking about elections...the point is the MESSAGE of the Democrats and of the Greens. The Democratic leadership is like non-abolitionists in the 1850s. If the goal is abolition, and they're not even talking about it, they're obviously not going to do anything about it. If the message is the DLC message, who cares who is elected. I myself would prefer President Bush over some Democratic DINO DLC hack. As Truman said, if the only choice is between an all-but-Republican and a real Republican, people tend to prefer the real thing.

[Old and In the Way]

41. I'm sure Diebold won't have any problems giving Greens Democratic

votes in 2006. Who knows? They may even be funding more Greens and 3rd Party candidates in the mid-terms.

And to the OP...when the monolythic RW start splintering into constituent parts, I'll be happy to consider more progressive alternatives to the Democrats. Until that happens, sorry, no sale.

[lvx35]

8. I agree on the issues, but Democrats are fine.

You will eventually have to fight for the soul of whatever party you are in. If you run and abandon the Democrats, and the Greens get big, the corporate players will start moving big money to get high placed people in the Green party, and it will be the same old game all over again, except with a GLC (Green leadership counsel) instead of a DLC!!! There is nothing wrong with the principles and foundations of the Democratic party from a progessive standpoint, so its worth fighting for.

[Terran1212]

11. "corporate players will start moving...money...Green Party"

Green Party bans corporate donations.

Won't happen.

[lvx35]

14. They would get their fingers in one way or another.

Or the green party would be destroyed by them. I believe The real problem of our time is the insane power of corporations, and I think we should confront it head on, in the Dems.

[Terran1212]

17. Dems confront Corporations?

Confronting corporations will have to be done outside the government, with mass movements that force the government to listen (dem or republican)

[madrchsod]

9. good idea ! lets split everybody that is

left of center into little factions, ya that`s the ticket to defeat the republicans and restore our democracy! ya that`s a great idea..

[Terran1212]

13. Good Idea: Let's actually have democracy!

Democracy isn't voting for people who don't represent you. If everyone in America voted their actual opinion, the Dems and Republicans wouldn't last a day.

We'd be an actual democracy, instead of a "choose lesser of two evils because democracy isn't allowed"-ocracy.

[blue cat]

16. I vote 3rd party

if there is one on the ballot, but that really doesn't happen a lot here in Tx., so I vote dem for the rest, except for pres. which is too important not to go with the D for now, until there is a viable 3rd party pres running.

[murdoch]

25. But is the Democratic leadership left of center?

You're speaking as if the Democratic leadership is left of center. I don't share that view.

My father is a construction worker. My last job was making less than $8 an hour at a wholesale club for seasonal work. I am 31 years old, and taking one college course at a state college at night so that I can make decent money, but I could barely afford to pay for school. In fact there was so much red tape to get into school that I spent all of January doing that instead of getting another job.

Anyhow, I consider wage slavery as only slightly better than slavery itself. And I consider the Democrats scraps from the table approach like people who said abolitionism went too far, and that slaves should just be treated better. While I think wage slaves like myself should be treated better, I think that that is only a small thing. I think the only solution is to do away with wage slavery. I do not know why some owner of my wholesale club should get some of the wealth I create there in the form of profit, or should have a say in what I do since I'm the one doing the work.

The Democratic leadership nowadays are like people in the 1850s saying that slaves in the south should be treated better, but let's not rock the boat, since the slaves are legally owned.

[longship]

12. How many Green progressives are in office?

How many Democrat progressives are in office?
This is a no-brainer folks.

BTW, the name of these forums is the Democratic Underground.
Democratic, big "D".

[Terran1212]

15. Bernie Sanders and Jeffords are practically Green

Kucinich calls himself a "Green Democrat"

Democratic =/= American Democrat Party

Democratic means, well, you should know.

[cmd]

19. I think we are all Green Democrats

I just wish the Greens would join us in making a difference.

[Terran1212]

21. The more liberal states should have Greens instead of Dems

Just run grassroots campaigns banning corporate money and the Greens could take the most liberal Democrat positions. They could then slowly work their way into Congress and be a good complement to progressive Dems until they become popular enough for a Presidential bid.

[queenbdem87]

20. this is so unrealistic...

The greens will not get elected in this environment. Of course we as liberals don't agree on several issues with many Democrats in Congress, but the only way we can move in a progressive direction is by electing a Democratic majority. We need to get our foot back in the door before we can start renovating the inside of the house. I'm so sick and tired of liberals encouraging other liberals to vote green. I would love to vote green, but that will not get us a majority against the repugs now. We need to get the repugs out of power as soon as possible. Period. But I guess that objective doesn't even factore into this utopian vision of progressive leadership.

[Caution]

22. Great. Now head on over to GreenUnderground OK?

get it yet? Oh yeh and thanks for 2000. Thanks a bundle. Nothing like contributing to the destruction of a democracy over something that becomes more and more obviously untrue as the days go by (Gore=Bush).

[nofurylike]

23. you mean the greens who couldn't bother with doing all the hard work of

reforming the political structure of this country such that 'other' parties would be viable?
the greens whose egomania made them run for national office before doing that work?
the green men who took over an egalitarian movement and turned it white-male dominated like so many before them?

and, by the way, i was a founding-mother green and i know what i'm talking about.

bye

[John_H]

30. You're right! And don't forget

to vote green in November, especially in very close house and senate elections, just to bring Ralph's 2000 strategy, urging progressives to enable republicans by depriving their opponents votes, to complete fruition. Even though the effects of the GOP's reign of terra will be long lasting--even irreversable in the case of supreme court appointments and environmental policy--the eventual Green Backlash will make it all worthwhile!! But let's face it: as our man Ralph said in 6 long years ago, Democrats are indistinguishable from Republicans. Name one of Bush's policies Gore or Kerry wouldn't have replectated. Name one policy a Democratic congress would not have endorsed. You can't, can you! Of course you can't. Ok, so maybe this backlash didn't come as fast as we all hoped and the republicans are redoubling there efforts stranglehold on america. Maybe Greens' political clout has diminished dramatically. But murdoch, me and the thousands of other greens accross america can sweep Greens into office this time.

Take it from murdoch and me: It's never been more important to make life easier for the GOP. The time to show Democrats the power of the 2% is upon us. We must put Greens in office now, before the republicans succesfully complete their plans to make it impossible to democratically elect anyone excedpt for them.

No more Democratic crumbs for us! Let's give america the giant GOP shit sandwich they deserve!

[Mark E. Smith]

32. Remember when the "Greens" said there was no difference...

... between George W. Bush and Al Gore?

Man, were they full of shit.

[FrenchieCat]

33. !

[nofurylike]

34. all the big fish in a small pond-types. can't work well with others. like

log cabin gays and black repugs.
megalomaniacs, no matter what it costs the country, the world, the suffering...

take the ball and go home. no hassle of hard work for you. if you a white man, you can be a hero on tv, while the rest of us stuff envelopes, march in the freezing cold...


bye again

[murdoch]

38. The Democrats and world suffering

And what about what Democrats have done in terms of world suffering? What presidents got the US into Vietnam? Handed out CIA lists so hundreds of thousands could be massacred in Indonesia in the mid-1960s? Paved the path for Plan Colombia (Clinton, not Bush)?

The Democratic and AFL-CIO leadership have moved so far right, what's the difference between them and the Republicans? Why do so many working class people vote for the conservative party, which is something you never see in Europe?

[Disturbed]

39. Why do so many working class people vote for

the conservative party?

Ignorance &/or stupidity.

[nofurylike]

40. not THOSE democrats. THIS democrat. me. each of us. it is a party

not a past. it is for us to create.

you have two choices. period. unless you intend to do the work to make 'other' parties viable - which would be GREAT!!! please DO THE WORK!!! i am doing it. many are doing it.

BUT, until that happens, you have TWO choices. do you PREFER republican?
if not, get to work making the PEOPLE'S PARTY BETTER AND GREENER

until you help enough to help us CREATE a FULLY REPRESENTATIVE form of government.

get it, yet?

[nofurylike]

44. "so many working" people do NOT vote repug. many do not vote at all,

and that is because repugs block efforts at FAIR electing, such as election day holiday, no photo Id, no long lines... blah blah blah..

***

i know, i've already seen you read so well, and think so much about what people try to teach you...

:sarcasm:

bye again, for real this time.

[Neil Lisst]

43. What we NEED are greens that have enough sense to vote Democratic

instead of helping guys like Bush take over

[snowbear]

45. MURDOCH *** STOP BASHING DEMOCRATS !!!! ****

Just STOP !!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Skinner]

46. Locking

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