DLC has a point.....

[HardWorkingDem]

On the front page of DU, there is a story about how the Dems have to be careful about this wiretapping controversy and for once, the DLC is correct. For example, if it is not clearly shown that Bush's wiretapping program tapped the phones of ordinary Americans or people that truly should not have been spied on, we might not be able to win on this issue.

If the Bushies can successfully sell that this program is controversial but all they people they spied on were somehow "linked" to terrorism, the persuadable American voters people are not going to care about who was caught up in this tapping.

We cannot have rumors of Quakers, Peta and Greenpeace being monitored - it must be SHOWN that they were caught up in Bush's wiretapping.

AND this is not a post supporting the Bushies use of this program, only pointing out pragmatic political points.

[wryter2000]

1. Let's not make any noise

What's a little thing like a Constitution between friends?

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. It doesn't matter who-all was spied on. The point is to prove that they

needed warrants and went ahead and decided they didn't need them.

[Atman]

11. We have the PROOF

Two key items in evidence:

Exhibit A: The constitution.

Exhibit B: FISA.

What more proof does one need? Even the war resolution they keep touting says "all necessary FORCE." Since when has a wiretap been consider "forced" in a military context? They are reaching, big time. We've no need to lend them a helping hand.

[GreenPartyVoter]

16. That's my point. We have a case and everything we need to show

that ** is in the wrong. Why the DLC wants to pussyfoot around something so cut and dried is beyond me.

[HardWorkingDem]

32. Here's the thing....

when these hearings are done, what if Specter comes out and more or less endorses this program? The media is going to blare that "here we have this man of integrity who at first questioned this program, examined it and now finds that while controversial, it has not been illegal."

In other words, the media and pundits are going to give Specter the same republican iconoclast stature that McCain receives. Specter will be seen as another McCain - a legitimate critique of his own party who actually remains to walk lockstep with everything they say and do, while appearing to be criticizing it.

So my words are not misconstrued - the media will sell Specter as one who fairly criticizes his own party, but who we all really know bitches a little bit and doesn't say a damn thing.

[GreenPartyVoter]

35. The media will do all that and more anyway. We need to stop pretending

that we can get a fair shake by what passes for mainstream media these days.

[stickdog]

48. So that's a reason to refrain from raising hell? Because we WANT

to let Specter frame the issue? Because we're scared to mention that Bush is trashing the Constitution without any reasons or results?

[mattclearing]

You are correct, but anything remotely positive about the DLC

will get jeered here. And I will join in. :)

[mrcheerful]

3. Watch Moores 9/11 movie and follow the bouncing ball.

[Stuckinthebush]

4. Then Americans are fools

and deserve what they get.

I for one am not ready to flush Americans down the toilet. I think they are smart, for the most part, and understand that this has to do with Bush overstepping his legal authority, not about protecting America.

I don't support the DLC in this. I think our values should be held up high...the values that say we respect the Constitution.

[havocmom]

5. LOL DLC has a point? DLC is prolly worried what conversations they had

that got recorded
:popcorn: extra butter?

[leftchick]

8. HaHa! Absolutely!

Their conversations with repukes no doubt! :popcorn:

[havocmom]

24. corporate lobbyists too.

junta would blackmail anybody and DLC knows it

[laheina]

23. No doubt! nt

[RubyDuby in GA]

6. So you think the Bush Administration is just going to throw open their

records and show each and every person's information that they were spying on?

I'm also being pragmatic. This will never happen so there is no way to actually prove this point one way or another. The burden of proof must be laid on their doorstep, not ours. Until they do come clean (and hell will freeze over first), we must keep the pressure on.

[leftchick]

7. they weren't rumors there was a newspaper story about it

yeah, let's hold back and watch the repukes eat their own! That's the ticket! :eyes:

[BillZBubb]

9. Baloney, we are fighting for the Constitution.

The onus should be on the ever lying Bush regime to show that they have not violated the Constitution. If they only spied on people "linked to terrorism", where are the arrest warrants for those people? Why hasn't the Bush regime thrown them into jail?

This is a fight that we will easily win big if we actually put up a fight for a change. The usual DLC wimping out is not the way to go. Constitutional rights aren't negotiable for "pragmatic political points".

[HardWorkingDem]

12. Typical DU idealism that keeps getting us spanked...

You know, it's great to be able to keep one's ideals and hopes and dreams about the Constitution and we really all should do such a thing, however, we must look at the real world and fight with tactics that exist in the real world.

All of us here know how and what the Bushies are going to be doing over this issue - they are going to try and probably show that the only people caught up in this spying are people "linked" to terrorists. And the American voters are going to most likely buy into their load of bullshit.

Right now, if the Rethuglicans were to run a poll that said something like, "Do you believe people linked to terrorism are protected under FISA or the US Constitution", the overwhelming majority would say not just "no", but a resounding "HELL NO!"

Vilsack is simply saying that if Dems cannot show regular, innocent Americans were spied on and the Bushies are able to sell that only questionable people were spied on, then the Dems might be in some trouble.

We must stop singing to the choir here and listening to our own voices reverberate in our own echo chamber while thinking they are growing and getting louder.

[BillZBubb]

21. Wrong again.

It is not idealism, but hard ball politics. Ask them simply how many of the people they have spied on "linked to terrorists" are in jail. That is one of several hard, but easy to understand questions that will expose their lies.

The kind of thinking that keeps getting us spanked is DLC wimp outs on every confrontation. We look like limp wristed appeasers who won't fight for what we supposedly believe in.

[stickdog]

49. That's a load of shit. Where are these terrorists? Why couldn't

they go to the FISA court to get warrants after the fact?

There's no fucking terrorists and there's no fucking justifiable explanation for what Bush has done. The only reason for forgoing the FISA court is to spy on people OTHER than terrorists. THAT IS THE FUCKING FRAME!!! Why aren't we using it???

[Montauk6]

10. Wasn't this the Murrow/Friendly strategy against McCarthy?

The significance of breaking the Milo Radulovich story was supposedly to show that HUAC WAS targeting innocent Americans.

[SaveElmer]

13. I am probably identified as a DLC defender here...

Though I am not a member...and I will not engage in the Republican tactic of tarnishing everyone by association. Vilsack was correct up to a point. Democrats have been roasted over the coals by Republicans over the years on our national security credentials...that is a fact. And it is prudent to watch how we frame our positions on this issue...

However, where Vilsack is clearly wrong, is in questioning the legality of this wiretapping. It is CLEARLY illegal. Democrats need to frame the debate focusing on this aspect of it. This will redound to our benefit if we play it right.

[wryter2000]

20. Thank you

I'm clearly not a DLC'er, but I agree that we have to shed the "weak on security" label. Caving in on this issue is not the way to do it. We should be strong for our laws and our Constitution and continue to point out Bush's colossal failings in keeping us safe, both from Al Qaeda and natural disasters.

[guidod]

34. Wire tapping is not illegal.

The dems are saying that Bushdick did not get a court order from FISA to do it, that's illegal.

[SaveElmer]

36. Yes I shortcutted my statement...

Of course I was referring to Bush's actions in this situation.

[flyarm]

14. ok so tell the dlc to do a foia on my phones for the past two yrs

and tell me who has caused all the beeps and blips on all of my phones..at both of my homes and my cell phone!!

bullshit is bullshit..i am no terrorist and i do not call out of the usa!!

so tell me who has been tapping my phones..and do not tell me its my imagination..it is not...it has been so pervasive that the many times i talk to fellow dems and activists...we revert to discussing menstrual flow when it occurs! which is often!
when i came to my winter home in the fall it took 3 days before the tapping began...so i had 3 free days of silence on the phones...before the low sound of tapping began!

so tell the dlc if they want to give * the benefit of the doubt..do a foia and get me the answers to who is tapping my phones and why!

or shut the hell up and do their job and be the party of responsibility and hold these criminals in my white house accountable!
and accountable to my constitutional rights !

fuck the dlc...they are not my party nor do they represent my democratic values!

no one is above the law..not now, not ever ...and its about time real dems take our party back and tell the dlc to shove it up their asses!

most in my family fought and some died for my constitution...and i will not sit back and allow this administration , nor the dlc to tell me my constitution has no meaning!! and that it wasn't worth fighting and dying for!

i say..dlc..go to hell...if you won't fight for truth and honesty and the constitution..then get the hell out of the way..as i will fight them all for my values and those of my ancestors, who fought for those very values!

fly

[Justitia]

15. Is the DLC telling us to "Sit Down & Shut Up" again? -eom

[Capn Sunshine]

17. POINT my ASS

This isn't about politics; it's about the President ADMITTING he broke the law by circumventing FISA Courts. You really think the FISA court would turn down a request to monitor suspected terrorist activities? No. They would not.

Therefore, the President's inability to articulate to a court his purpose makes his actions highly suspect, notwithstanding his AG refusing to be sworn in for testimony about the matter.

What good is violating all of our laws and constitutional accords in this republic if we give the President the ability to do whatever he or she wants because they say so? To "protect" us we destory what we are protecting?

I CALL BULLSHIT ON THIS DANGEROUS PRACTICE.

I don't want my rights protected out of existence, especially by someone who ha already indicated they are willing to give over the country to the fascist scourge, and the world to armageddon.

This isn't political, it's fucking American.

[Adelante]

27. You and Wes agree, Capn

First, we've got to set things right at home. Protecting our Constitution comes first. Country before Party. Congress must fulfill its duties to the American people, not rollover for favors from the Executive branch. We need a full, in-depth, bipartisan investigation of the Administration's bypassing of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.


Congress needs to show resolve that the laws it passes do bind the executive branch, whether in wiretapping, humane treatment of prisoners, or the freedom of information act. Moreover, it is time for a special prosecutor, independent of the Department of Justice, to be empowered to investigate the Abramoff scandal, and pursue the leads all the way through Congress and up to the highest office in the land, if necessary. Get it out and get it over.

From "Real State of the Union"

http://securingamerica.com/node/560


"This isn't political, it's fucking American." :yourock:

[HardWorkingDem]

30. Tell me, where in my point did I CONDONE these acts?!?

Jesus. Quit putting words in posts that aren't there.

Hell, even Vilsack doesn't condone this crap. But what he is pointing out is something we must take into account.

[rocktivity]

18. They've ALREADY lost on the issue

because there is no way they can just not telling the NSA that they wanted to phonetap Al Qaeda suspects, epsecially if they could have gotten a warrant AFTER THE FACT! This issue is OURS! And may I point out that Bush has been doing this PRIOR to 9/11?

:headbang:
rocknation

[Dhalgren]

19. All US citizens are innocent until PROVED GUILTY in a court of

Law! I don't care if the citizen is "suspected" of "contact" with "terrorists" - he or she is still A CITIZEN! That means that the government HAS to follow the LAW! No American citizen should have his or her constitutional rights abridged on the say-so of any elected official outside the confines of LAW! Period! If the DLC or the DNC (for that matter) want to water-down the Bill of Rights, they can go
f*%k themselves...

[laheina]

22. What is an "ordinary American?"

As far as I'm concerned, all of those residents and citizens who were spied on without the evidence to support a warrant--and were exonerated--are people that were needlessly spied on. And THAT violated their rights. Who cares if they were innocent, or that we are all boring people that shouldn't worry about losing our privacy. It's the fact that *it happened* that is wrong. It is wrong in principle. It is just wrong. :rant:

[Jim__]

25. bush broke the law!

His supporters are claiming he has dictatorial powers. If the American people accept this, then the only point in continuing to participate in the political process is to convince the American people that it is wrong and stupid to accept rule by a dictator.

There is no point in electing representatives who have no power to control the executive. That the DLC doesn't get this speaks volumes about the DLC.

[HardWorkingDem]

26. Jesus, not suggesting swallowing principles or ignoring importance of this

But we have to ask what is our purpose here if we cannot get a message out? What good does it do to go home at night and be able to say, "Hey! I didn't compromise once or change my tactics one bit!" And then wake up to where we are now?

We keep losing elections because we refuse to study and acknowledge what is going on. There is an old saying about how a lie gets half way around the world before the truth gets it shoes on. And that describes progressive politics to a T. By the time the lying republicans are getting elected and re-elected we progressives are still trying to explain to the American people all the subtle nuances to our argument.

Then we sit around and bitch and moan about the source of an important point, rather than paying attention to what has been said - we allow our disgust of the messenger to cause us to ignore the concept of the message.

To win, we must understand the way modern day politics if fought.

And one thing we must not do is think that we are catching up because of our fine running machine. We must be honest that our catching up has more to do with the Bush Administration train running off the tracks than changes in our methods, strategies and tactics.

On the intellectual side, what the Bushies are doing is disgusting, illegal and beyond contempt, however, if they are able to do what they want with this topic, the American voters we need will side with them. It is as simple as that. Is it right - hell no! But we are being naive in ignoring the process - that is unless we all are as wealthy as Marlon Brando was and can afford to buy our own little island and retire there while resting on our idealism.

[Doctor_J]

28. It's already on record that more than 99% of the spying was done against

INNOCENT Americans. Christanne Amanpour was a target. At what point do you think we should be able to protest? Furthermore, what * did was ILLEGAL. What part of illegal don't you understand?

[HardWorkingDem]

29. What I am saying is.....

that what you typed is what we MUST get across.

Sometimes I don't think people here even read posts and when they do, they are too busy formulating their reply before digesting what someone wrote.

See, what the senator's should have asked (and I don't know if they did or not) was "DID AMANPOUR GET WIRETAPPED MR GONZALES?!?!?" And when he would not answer, every Dem should have asked again and again and again.

And this is what Vilsac is saying - if Dems cannot get the message out that civil liberties are at risk, then the resulting response might not be that good for Dems.

That's all....there is no agreeing with this practice or condoning it. But the way the hearings went yesterday, I'm not very hopeful about the end results.

[Adelante]

33. Was that confirmed, TOJ?

I remember MSNBC had it on their site and took it down, saying they were conducting further investigation. I never saw a followup and would like to know if there has been any. Thanks.

[Doctor_J]

37. I am making a logical leap, I guess

But that original statement from the NSA guy will hold alot more water for me than some "investigation" conducted by the network of Tweety, Norah, Scarborough, Russert, Tucker, Matt, and Katie.

[Adelante]

40. Yeah

I'd like to know for sure about Amanpour since her husband was so high in the Clark campaign. I'd love to know if bugs picked up campaign strategy.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

31. The FISA court has turned down only FOUR warrants...

Four. Out of thousands of submitted warrants, and 28 years of existence, they've turned down just four.
Not surprisingly, they were all in 2003. The year before the election.

If it's so damn easy for the FISA court to grant warrants, then why
do you think Bush felt he had to go around it?

It's an easy question, and Vilsack is trying to confuse it by saying:
"If the president broke the law, that's unacceptable. But I think it's debateable whether he did..."

Four turned down warrants. www.epic.org/privacy/wiretap/stats/fisa_stats.html
There's your pragmatic political talking point. Instead, we get Vilasck clouding the issue. Lovely.

[radio4progressives]

38. it was shown that the quakers were being domestically spyed on.

thats already happened. how dare you even suggest that they have a point.

and furthermore we have a long taudry history of domestic spying gone unchecked, used against domestic POLITICAL opponents. the Democratic party have been subject to this abuse and have lost ELECTIONS due to this activity. never mind the outrageous activity against war dissenters.

for heavens sakes, sheeple! the constitution is being completely shredded our democracy forsaken - if you don't fight with everything in your power against this - giving NO QUARTER to any APOLOGIST - then you are part of the Problem.

[HardWorkingDem]

Point to source of Quaker spying please....and....

when it all comes down to it, what realistic, basic common denominator comes into play here? It is the voter. We don't have to compromise our ideals, standards or liberties at all, but we need to change our tactics to win. Certainly, no one expects Bush to be impeached with a Republican congrees, correct? And does anyone really expect much action from a Republican controlled Senate in these hearings? I doubt it.

But what we do need is to make our senators ask the tough questions instead of bloviating their bullshit ego supported talking points. We need them to ask pointed questions and do not relent until they get an answer. We need to make them show that undesirable people were also spied on because as Vilsac points out, the everyday mood of the voters in country will not give a shit if the Bushies are able to sell this as they were "just" spying on terrorits and affiliated terrorists. And sadly, I feel this is underway because so many in the media a referring to this program as the "terrorist surveillance program".

And please point to your Quaker source......

[radio4progressives]

50. Is an NBC Pentagon Reporter, Lisa Myers, a Credible Source for you?

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10454316/

Is the Pentagon spying on Americans?
Secret database obtained by NBC News tracks ‘suspicious’ domestic groups

By Lisa Myers, Douglas Pasternak, Rich Gardella and the NBC Investigative Unit Updated: 6:18 p.m. ET Dec. 14, 2005


WASHINGTON - A year ago, at a Quaker Meeting House in Lake Worth, Fla., a small group of activists met to plan a protest of military recruiting at local high schools. What they didn't know was that their meeting had come to the attention of the U.S. military.

A secret 400-page Defense Department document obtained by NBC News lists the Lake Worth meeting as a “threat” and one of more than 1,500 “suspicious incidents” across the country over a recent 10-month period.

“This peaceful, educationally oriented group being a threat is incredible,” says Evy Grachow, a member of the Florida group called The Truth Project.

cont...

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10454316/

[HardWorkingDem]

58. Where is the part about warrantless wiretapping?

Though I do not like this sort of governmental action, this piece is not about warrantless spying on Americans - the discussion that started this thread. There is a difference (though oddly in some ways, what the Pentagon did in this case might even be worse).

[radio4progressives]

53. The Democratic Senators, should have gotten up and WALKED OUT

of that hearing yesterday, when Specter refused to Swear In Gonzo.

The Democrats do have power, even though they are in the minority. they have to USE IT. But they're all too damn priviledged and either support the status quo, or simply haven't a clue of what it means to FIGHT FOR OUR RIGHTS, or HOW to do it. As a group, they simply are a disgrace.

[MrBenchley]

39. Exactly so....

Well said!

[IndianaGreen]

63. So you support law breaking by Bush?

Nice to see where you stand!

[Pithy Cherub]

41. The DLC is afraid of its own shadow.

How can they be trusted to protect Americans if they won't stand and fight for principles, the rule of law and accountability. Good Grief, can they show any more weakness across such a broad range of topics...:nuke:

[McCamy Taylor]

42. WRONG. Everyone get "Illegal Wiretap" bumperstickers. Plaster

them on your car now. Americans remember Watergate and they KNOW that presidents should be impeached for doing what W. did. They saw him admit it on TV. They can not understand why Congress isn't doing its job. (Actually, they know. It is because Congress is Repuhblican).

"Bush Spied" is the reason why W.'s polls continue to tank. It is doing the same damage that "Bush Lied" did. Sure, it isnt the ratings buster that Katrina was, but it is eroding those all important personality points from him, making him seem like a not so nice guy to the American public, taking away his ability to campaign with GOPers this fall.

Who are you going to believe, some anonymous guys at the DLC or me, who has been a Democrat forever and who has always been able to predict the outcome of every presidential election (including how the GOP would use election fraud to their advantage)?

[Greyhound]

43. On top of its head. n/t

[McCamy Taylor]

45. ROFLMAO

[McCamy Taylor]

44. BTW "leadership" sounds good to GOPers, red flag to Dems.

DLC is going to have an uphill battle. You guys would be better off calling yourselves the Women's Collective for Equality of something like that. Then Dems might be more inclined to listen to your words of wisdom.

:headbang:

[AtomicKitten]

46. we need to make the issue of wiretapping our own.

I already posted here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x342615#342935

[stickdog]

47. The DLC HAS NO FUCKING POINT & NEITHER DO YOU!!!

What fucking terrorists have they convicted? If they are really going after terrorists, why can't they go to the FISA court after the fact?

They've ripped up the 4th Amendment and trashed the separation of powers WITH NO FUCKING RESULTS AND NO FUCKING EXPLANATION. That is the ONLY frame that's needed, and the only reason the DLC can't see this is because they are truly Dicks Like Cheney.

[HardWorkingDem]

59. Why don't you actually read what people post?!?!?

Again, I am not condoning this illegal behavior - only pointing out the obvious: if voting Americans only see this as Bush spying on terrorists, these hearings will not do us much good. We have to get the message out what this really means and with what I saw in the hearings, the Dems are in big failure of getting that done.

Jesus, read people's posts before you start hurling fucking insults.

[Totally Committed]

51. Yeah... hide under our chairs until it all blows over....

that's the ticket!

GMAFB!

TC

[Armstead]

52. It has already been shown that they spied on ordinary Americans

Surveillance of Quakers and Halliburton protestors, etc.

The horse is already out of the barn.

[NativeTexan]

54. The DLC is a little to much toward the center here...

...but there is some rationale to it. However, I just see the spying situation, just like the Senate threat of a "nuclear" option, and the overall power-grab by the executive branch. It is FINE with them, because it is THEIR president. When they will realize what they have done, is when THEY have to bow down to a President Hillary Clinton, or President Wesley Clark or someone else they don't like!

Dems in Congress would have NEVER given up that power to the executive branch, no matter WHICH party was in control of the White House. Dems be them progressive, liberal, conservative, moderate, DLC, whatever, believe in CHECKS AND BALANCES!!!

[MadHound]

55. It has already been proven that ordinary Americans were spied on

It has already been proven that Bushco did so illegally and unconstitutionally. This is an issue that is so loaded with horrific conotations that we forced another President out of office in part because of it. This should be a goddamn slam dunk case proving Bushco's complete and utter disregard for the law.

Instead, the Democrats have dillied and dallied, and rather than hit the media hard, have instead let the media message be crafted by Bushco, and now we're seriously behind the curve on this one, and judging from this little DLC bomb, we're never going to catch up.

I'm sorry, but the Democrats are in the process of blowing it on this one, like they've blown on so many issues before. And once again, it isn't going to be them who pay, hey, they've got the money to have their offices and houses swept for taps three times a day. No, it is you and I who will pay for this, with our freedom and our lives.

SCREW THE GODDAMN PRAGMATIC POLITICAL POINTS. WE HAVE ALREADY GOT ALL THE PROOF IN THE WORLD THAT WE NEED, IT IS TIME THAT THIS PARTY FUCKING STOOD UP, AND FOR ONCE, NAIL THESE GODDAMN BUSH BASTARDS TO THE WALL!!!

[Debi]

56. Yes, we should wait until the administration tells us they've

done something illegal or unethical, then we can step forward. Otherwise, since they have told us they've done nothing wrong (Just like Richard Nixon did or Duke Cunningham did) we should beleive them.

We must wait our turn, continue to agree with the Administration's raping of this country and It's citizens, and they'll let us know when Democrats are needed again.

Sheesh :silly:


On Edit:

Tom Vilsack wants to be your president - he needs to court the favor of 'conservative Democrats' away from the likes of Evan Bayh and Hillary Clinton. He's whoring for the DLC, not helping America.

[ulysses]

57. they. broke. the. law.

Vilsack and the DLC are trying to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

[Dr Fate]

60. ...on top of their heads. n/t

n/t

[LittleClarkie]

61. I don't care who they were spying on. The issue is WARRANT or

NO WARRANT.

The issue is not IF they spied on ordinary Americans, it's that after Nixon, safeguards were put in place so that other presidents couldn't do what Nixon did, which was use the wiretaps against political opponents. Bush just bypassed all of that. He broke the law.

Did other presidents wiretap? Sure. Did they do so without a warrant? No. THAT is the issue.

[IndianaGreen]

62. Bush broke the FISA law, a felony!

He should be impeached! Period! End of the story!

Enough of the DLC appeasement crap.

[JWS]

64. "Linked" to terrorists?

Well that's not hard, I'm like totally related to Thomas Jefferson and I met someone who starred in a movie with someone, who starred in a movie with Kevin Bacon. I'm sure if I look at it long enough I can prove somehow that me and Osama bin laden are totally chummy.

[leesa]

65. Oh God I am so sick of you carzy wimps! Why aren't you asking that he

PROVE he's tapping AlQaeda??? What's wrong with you guys?

[sendero]

66. Sorry..

.... your kind of thinking went out with the dodo bird.

Let's reverse the situation. If the shoe were on the other foot, Republicans would be ACCUSING US of spying on political enemies. Because frankly, the FISA warrants are no obstacle to doing what they CLAIM they are doing.

We should be leveling this accusation - MAKE THEM PROVE OTHERWISE. Believe me, just like now the accusation would be in 40 point font and the fact of innocence in 10 point.

If in fact they are innocent, which I highly doubt.

[HardWorkingDem]

68. What is it with people here who evidently refuse to read other's postings?

And then turn around and fucking insult people to boot.

I AM NOT CONDONING THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION'S CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR. What I am pointing out, is if the idiotic voters in this country buy into his bullshit about him creating a god damned "terrorist surveillance program", it is not going to help us one bit.

My god, does anyone here recall the Swift boating of Kerry? Or is that too old all ready? That goes right along with this crap; just like all the bullshit lies that the Bushies got Americans to believe about Al Gore - remember those? You know, the internet, Love Canal, Love Story, et cetera.

My only point is, if our message is destroyed or ignored, then it will make it that much harder for American's to further see through Bush's bullshit.

Jesus. What is it with people here anymore?!?!? I am getting so sick and tired of people hurling insults and diatribes at other's who have contray opinions.

[sendero]

69. I read your post just fine..

... and I disagree with you, the DLC and anyone who thinks likes you. And I'm in a shoot-the-messenger kindof mood. And I offered a better solution to the problem than rolling over yet again and letting the other side frame the issue, WHICH IS PART AND PARCEL OF THE PROBLEM.

When the DLC says "be careful", history shows that means "shut up cuz if you piss off the administration it's bad, bad, bad". That thinking is wrongheaded and is as responsible as anything for the fact that Dems are getting nowhere. I reject it outright.

Perhaps I could have been more tactful, on that point I will concede. I just have a low threshold for this sort of advice, which IMHO has hamstrung our party. Bush should be polling in the 20s by now and the only reason he's not is that Dems are afraid to point out just how rotten he is.

The Dems should be screaming this from the rooftops: "the FISA warrants are no impediiment whatsoever to the surveillance of terrorism-related communications. None, not any". And "who is Bush listening to that he cannot tell a judge as required by our constitution and laws?"

[HardWorkingDem]

71. Tacts vs strategy et cetera...

On the DU, there seems to be a complete meltdown when it comes to knowledge about the difference between tactics and strategy.

What is really infuriating about this place anymore is that when people the typical DU'er's don't agree with make a good point, it is often times completely ignored because of the PERSON making the point, rather than the good information that is contained in that point.

For the life of me, I can't understand how DU'er's can ignore when someone points out, "if Bush is successful in selling his electronic eavesdropping to the American people as that as a 'terrorist surveillance program' then Dems will have a hard time getting their message out about this issue." To me, it is a very simple piece of information and what is even more baffling THIS SAME EXAMPLE HAS BEEN SHOWN TO HAPPEN OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

But what do I get? The typical put words in another person's posts, claims of things I am not or thoughts attributed that are not there.

To state my point, yet again, the Dems must get out in front of this issue (which now with each new nugget of information that is leaking out each day, it might just be happening) and prevent the Bushies from selling it just how Vilsack warned in his original essay.

[mdmc]

67. what CAN'T the neo-cons sell

peace

[mmonk]

70. It's against the current law of the US

to spy on citizens without a warrant. Nothing risky when put in those terms. Only scared dems will shy away from the issue.