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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-11-06 11:27 PM
Original message
Debating Impeachment Among Democrats
By David Swanson

Can you even imagine Republicans, even if they were in a minority in Congress, debating whether or not to call for the impeachment of a Democratic president known and documented as guilty of a wide range of high crimes and misdemeanors? In particular, if you can imagine that, can you imagine the Republicans who opposed impeachment arguing that they were doing so for strategic political reasons?

This is hard to imagine, because the Republicans won a majority in Congress by loudly proclaiming what they would do if they had it. The main thing they said they would do and still say they will do is oppose the agenda of the Democrats.

Meanwhile, Democratic voters and lapsed voters keep waiting for the Democrats to have an agenda. Polls show that most of us want strong positions on single-payer health care, clean elections, ending the war, shifting to renewable energy, investing in education, restoring the minimum wage, restoring New Orleans, and other policies that incumbent Democrats are usually - at best - taking baby steps on.

The Democrats in Congress seem to be operating under the delusion that they might achieve something small by trying to cooperate with the radical right-wingers who rule the committees. The RNC depicts Nancy Pelosi as Darth Vader, but she wants to work cooperatively with them. At some point this behavior develops into self-hatred.

One of the positions that we Democratic voters seem to care most strongly and decisively about is impeachment of the president. In a recent Zogby poll in Pennsylvania, 85 percent of Democrats favored congressional candidates who are committed to impeachment. Over 75 percent STRONGLY preferred such candidates. These and other polls are revealing not just a preference, but a passionate preference.
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/polling

Democrats who think they can run on content-free platforms and win because of disgust for Bush are apparently aware of the disgust that's out there. What they are missing is that it's even higher for Democrats who fail to stand up to Bush. I've been at a number of events around the country - Democratic events and anti-war events - where the applause and cheering for impeachment has been matched only by the booing and hissing for Democrats who roll over and refuse to challenge the Bush regime.

Some commentators say we can't push impeachment until after non-Republicans win a majority in Congress.

This makes no sense to me, because first we need a reason to vote the Democrats a majority. You don't get a majority without offering people a reason to vote you one.

If 85 percent of Democrats want candidates who stand for impeachment, impeachment could help win a majority. These two goals are not opposed, but impeachment may need to come first if winning Congress is to be achieved.

Winning Congress for the Democrats may or may not be needed in order to impeach Bush and Cheney. It also may or may not lead to impeachment. This will depend on what sort of Democrats we elect, how we pressure them once they're in, and whether we've built a massive campaign for impeachment that is already up and running once they get there.

It's hard enough getting Democrats to do what they promise to do during their campaigns. Imagine how hard it would be to get them to do something controversial if we'd all kept quiet about it during the campaigns!

There is always an election around the corner. If that's a reason not to fight for justice, then we can never fight for justice.

It is not a waste of time to push popular positions without any guarantee or even likelihood they'll succeed. It is the only way to make them eventually succeed. And it is the only way to change the political balance.

It is also the only thing Democrats in Congress are doing right now. Why should the Dems push futile proposals on education, energy, the war, and every other issue, but not push a futile proposal on impeachment? If we're going to declare everything futile, then they should just go home until someone miraculously gives them a majority.

OR, they could fight for what people want them to fight for, and provide us a reason to vote them a majority.

We need to demand right now that they sign on (as 23 of them have) to H Res 635, John Conyers' bill to create an investigation that will make recommendations on impeachment.
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/5768

And let's be clear: We need to impeach both Bush and Cheney. It seems likely in fact that we'll persuade a member of Congress to introduce articles of impeachment against Cheney before Bush.

But there are several reasons we should not worry about the remote possibility that impeaching Bush would stick us with Cheney as President.

First of all, an investigation into possible grounds for impeachment, as well as proposals for censure, serves an educational and political purpose, whether or not we get to impeachment. We further discredit the Bushies, and we help to build an opposition.

Impeachment and removal from office are two separate things, one of which has never been done in U.S. history. We should try for removal from office, but we shouldn't worry about it one way or another while fighting for impeachment.

It would be virtually impossible to investigate Bush or Cheney without incriminating the other one. If we impeach one, we impeach both.

Cheney is running the show now backstage. If by some combination of incredibly improbably occurrences he ended up president, we'd be better off with him up front as a walking advertisement for voting against Republicans. We'd be no worse off, since he's already in charge.

It is, in any case, our duty to demand impeachment. If you cannot impeach for the highest crime imaginable, taking the nation to war on the basis of lies, then you can never impeach, or impeachment must be reserved for sex. We must not be the ones to effectively remove the impeachment process from the US Constitution.

It is the duty of every citizen to demand what is right and just, come what may. More important than who sits in the Oval Office is that they know that we can hold them accountable for their actions.

Allowing criminal underlings to provide immunity is a recipe for disaster. If Bush is untouchable because Cheney is criminal, let's stop and think where that leaves us.

And let's stop and think about what it means to be a citizen. We all know that it's unlikely that a Republican Congress will impeach Bush and Cheney. But most of us understand that no important change has ever looked likely - through the course of history - before it's been won. And most of us know that our respect for Democrats will increase dramatically if they fight for what is right, likely or not, plausible or not, reasonable or not. Pundits will call them foolish. People will call them heroes.

Americans are fed up with Bush but even more turned off by Democrats' failure to develop backbones.

Can you imagine every Democrat in Congress standing strongly for impeachment? Can you imagine the pressure that would put on Republicans to join them? I bet you can.

We only need 15 Republicans. Are you going to tell me that nonviolent people's movements can create democracy in Russia, can kick the British out of India, can resist the Nazi occupation in Denmark, can drive a dictator out of El Salvador and another out of the Philippines, can end Jim Crow, can bring down the Soviet Union, can topple military regimes in Argentina and Chile, can end Apartheid, and can bring democracy to the Ukraine, but can't win the votes of 15 Republicans.

How narrow are our dreams! How shrunken is our vision!

Let's think larger! Let's say with Marvin Gaye this Valentine's Day: "Stop beating around the Bush. Let's get it on!"

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/7772


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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-11-06 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. Kicked and recommended.
Edited on Sat Feb-11-06 11:32 PM by calimary
I like this. YES. Let's think larger.

We have to FORCE the topic of IMPEACHMENT on the mainstreamers. Whether they want it or not.

Aim for that critical mass, guys.

Keep working..

Visualize IMPEACHMENT!!!

And then go DO something about it.

(see John Conyers' blog, and Carl Sheeler's, too! Info in my sig line below.)
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-11-06 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. Kicked, recommended, and thank you David!
It's time: Let's get it on.


:thumbsup:
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sandyd921 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-11-06 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yes, get a damn backbone!
How much clearer does it have to be? What do we have to do to get these murderers impeached, tried, and convicted?

To the Democrats in Congress: Do what's right!

Thank you for your post.
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
4. Well stated, David!
I've been after my rep to co-sponsor H Res 635. She wrote me that the House is not and would not be considering impeachment. I corrected her. There are 24 who have already signed on, including Conyers who got the ball rolling. Why would a Democrat refuse to sign on to an inquiry like this? Unbelievable.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:HE00635:@@@P
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 12:53 AM
Response to Original message
5. K&R. David you are providing substantial leadership. Thank you.
Peace.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 01:46 AM
Response to Original message
6. Thank you, David! K & R! Let's get it on! nt
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 01:53 AM
Response to Original message
7. David thank you.. and i do have one suggestion
Edited on Sun Feb-12-06 01:55 AM by radio4progressives
I am very confident that if Leaders of the Congressional Black Congress want to dare to take LEADERSHIP role on this matter, that CITIZENS of all communities will be there at their right along side in Washington - I'm suggesting to hell with the rest of the so called party "leadership", if John Conyers made the call for all Americans including African American communities, we will join in solidarity together on another March to Washington and demand immediate impeachment proceedings, indictment and prosecution.

But it appears the burden is on the shoulders of the few with courage and the spine to take the lead. And we need to do it now. Not wait until mid term elections, because i don't believe that even if there is a Democratic party victory in the House in November, that Democrats will do what needs to be done.

The Alito confirmation demonstrated with crystal clarity that will not happen.

So i asks you to transmit the message to the Honorable Congressman John Conyers to call upon all of us in all communities for a march on washington for impeachment now. We will be there.



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CanOfWhoopAss Donating Member (776 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
8. When Dems had the majority they protected it by
cooperating with the minority party for fear of losing the majority. Well that strategy worked really well. Now they are trying not to fall further into the minority using the same strategy! It's like football you play to win you don't play not to lose.
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
9. Kicked & Nominated.
Welcome to DU. :patriot:

You're right, of course. There would be no debate on "whether" to impeach. It would only be a question of when. Of course, it takes control of Congress to do it. As such, I say proceedings should begin in late November.

-Laelth
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yy4me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
10. What's to debate, Dems.......
Move it!
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Tigress DEM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
11. Committment to IMPEACHMENT can be demanded... but IMPEACHMENT
but IMPEACHMENT itself requires subpeona power which DEMOCRATS as the Minority party in BOTH House and Senate do not have.

I say, YES to demanding that DEMOCRATS show support, sign onto John Conyers Resolution AND shame and humiliate Republicans into signing as well if at all possible. This is one barometic reading I use in evaluating the worth of ANY DEM Candidate, "Do they realize and admitt and support the need to remove criminals from office?"

I add VOTE REFORM and Campaign Finance Reform to the list. Questions should be asked to potential candidates for ANY House or Senate position, what would you do if there was evidence of FOUL Play - AGAIN - in 2008 and what did you do in 2004 and why? Why do we even have to IMPEACH someone who wasn't elected in a fair election anyway?


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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
12. I think the only debate is about timing.
Can you imagine the pressure that would put on Republicans to join them? I bet you can.

Actually, no I can't. I can't imagine Republicans joining Democrats in impeachment. If you can imagine it, perhaps you can name which R's you imagine doing so?

I disagree with you on the notion that we should start impeachment proceedings with a Republican majority in congress, we need a Democratic Majority and we are too close to F it up with a balls to the wall "impeach bush" campign. We are beating the drum slowly, we are getting our ducks in a row, but make NO mistake, WE NEED A DEMOCRATIC MAJORITY TO MAKE IT HAPPEN.

If a person wants to run for office under the premise "vote for me, I'll support impeachment" fine. But, it's absurd to think the Republicans are going to start actually questioning * beyond political posturing for their next election.

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