What do you stand for and believe in? That's the REAL issue in all this.

[Armstead]

I just have to get this off my chest. The Hackett-Brown flamefest feels like anotehr straw on this particular camel's back...I apply this little rant to myself as much as anyone else. I think it's something we all are part of.

All of the back-and-forth and circular firing squads on the Democratic/Liberal/Progressive side in recent years seems to me to be a case of missing the forest for the trees.

What do we believe in? Really. What the hell do we feel strongly about which has prevented us from simply taking the pasth of least resistance, drinking the KoolAid and becoming Republicans or members of the Apathy Party?

You can avoid all of the churning in your stomach. Really. If you live a quiet life and just think about family, friends and your job, you can get along fine. Think how happy and peaceful you'd be to just go with the flow.

So if you're upset, there must be a reason. Or a lot of reasons.

Is itjust Politics as Sport, and you have picked your team and want to see it win? Or is it an essential sense of right and wrong that you can't turn off? Is it a set of beliefs BEYOND PARTISAN POLITICS that you feel on a gut level? Is it a well-thought out vision of what sociaty could become if we followed certain values and ideas and policies?

Why the hell should we care? What do we agree on that seperates us from Republicans and the Apathy Party?

I think before we continue to throw babies out with bathwater, form circular firing squads, shoot ourselves in the foot fatally -- (Pick whatever analogy you want) -- we all ought to clear our heads and think about what are First Principles, both individually and collectively.

That way we might be able to come up with more consistent and shared strategies, messages, framing, etc. that might actually move us forward instead of rowing this boat around in endless circles.

[Sammy Pepys]

1. We need a better form of "in-house" debating around here...

..."here" being the party I mean. Not only regarding processes, but ideas.

[Armstead]

2. I think we all need better individual soul-searching

Part of the problem may be summed up by Robert Redford's line at the end of The Candidate, when he won his election.

"What do we do now?"

Maybe we all need to ask ourelves that question about what we would want to do if our side does actually win. That, IMO, would probably make the in-house debating more focused and productive on a collective level.

[jedicord]

3. Children's health, most of all, is my number 1 issue.

I find it the greatest travesty that a country such as ours should have so many children with no access to healthcare and are going hungry.

Any time I hear a Repub talk about everyone pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps I want to scream.

It is impossible for a baby to choose his/her parents, therefore they cannot choose their present lot in life. Nor can they do much about it, at least until they come of working age.

Then there's the environment, world relations, animal protection ...

I'm the quintessential bleeding heart liberal.

[Armstead]

4. Bleeding heart liberal is good

That's something we should "own" and emphasize, IMHO.

[RufusEarl]

5. You hit the nail on the head

It was the group you described, the one that don't pay attention to politics. For some reason that group is the one that the DNC and most Dem's want, "the middle"

I can't explain why, i know their are allot of them and that may be the reason. But it doesn't separate us from the other party or define our politics or policies.

But Dem's just don't think they can win an election without them, so Hillery comes up with an anti flag burning proposal, this is directed straight to the middle and pisses me off.

All that said i'll support my local Dem's, but the fact that i do pay attention means i'll be able to separate the DINO's and vote for real democrats, whatever that is.

[jedicord]

6. We DO want them, and where the DNC goes wrong is how they go about it.

Frankly, we need the votes. The RNC is just very good about getting those votes. Although the middle "I just want to earn a paycheck and be left alone" people could care less about government, when faced with a real or imagined threat they will react.

Terror, God-haters, Gays - all wrapped up with a nice little bow.

What we (the DNC) should do is show these people the REAL threats - healthcare (or lack thereof), environment, world relations, all that I've described in my earlier post, and frame these issues in a way that will make these people react and wake up.

How? For GAWD's sake DNC, quit ignoring the RED states during national elections! Quit preaching to the choir! I live in Texas, and you have no idea how many people voted for * simply because they "knew nothing about Kerry". I did not see ONE commercial, he visited our state ZERO times. Who in the heck in this middle group would vote for an UNKNOWN entity? Especially one being demonized by the other side?

:grr:

[RufusEarl]

9. Hi neighbor,

I also live in Texas. God, Guns, & Guys, thats what Republicans preach 24/7 and it works for their narrow minded bunch. But they have a hard time with the middle, the group that only come out to vote ever four years.

And i agree the threats you mentionedz; health care, environment, and how this country is thought of around the world are important. But it's hard to get that on a bumper sticker, but we should keep trying.

The Texas Dem's have some good candidates for state wide office, i'm sure you've checked them out. So i suppose it's time to start knocking on doors, and donating a few bucks.

[jedicord]

10. Hey back neighbor!

Yes, issues are hard to get on a bumper sticker. But when a simple "W" works for the Repubs, there's something wrong. The message is getting out there for them.

And, yes, I do knock on doors and try to get the message out. But I am one person in a sea of sheep. I DID donate bucks, but I will not waste my money until I can see that it is being used.

Howard Dean, bless him, came to our state a few times during the primaries. Hopefully, he gets that the message needs to be taken to the people the DNC has ignored for so long.

Being from Texas, do you believe we have a chance to gain Democratic votes in a national election? I do.

[RufusEarl]

11. This will be the election

Yes i believe this is the year. I went to a rally the other night, to hear Chris Bell and Bob Gammage speak. One thing that Chris Bell said that really stuck with me was this, he said the Capitol in Austin is run just like the White House.

Why that stuck with me was this, i believe people our starting to see how badly this country is being run by this Admin. And i believe and hope that shit runs down hill, and it will catch up with our present governor and repub house and senate members.

Like you i'll be back on the street, being from Texas it's hard to get up sometimes and go out but this year i predict it will be different.

Since you're from Texas stop by my website, and sign my guest book. You can find a link to my website, from the access just above my handle.

[jedicord]

14. Curious, what do you think of Kinky?

I know, I know, it's "wasting votes". But I know many Repubs who want to vote for him, they are so tired of the status quo. They can't yet bring themselves to vote for a Dem, but they do want change.

Of course, I like the gimmick: "Vote for Kinky. Why the Hell not?"

Chris Bell, from what I've seen, is a viable candidate for the Dems. He just needs to get his message out.

[RufusEarl]

16. Kinky

I like the guy, but i don't want him to be my governor. These are serious times we live in, no time for the Kinky's of the world.

If Re'pughs want to vote for him that fine with me, i hope they do that or stay at home. And i agree Chris Bell would be a good candidate, have you had a chance to hear him speak?

[mdmc]

24. who ran ads in Texas during the primary ?

was it Dean?

[jedicord]

26. No Dem that I know of.

But at least Dean came to the state to speak, giving people an opportunity to hear him out. It also gave him some media coverage down here.

But not a penny of the money I gave to Kerry was spent in my state. At least not that I could see (unless you count house signs, which could have been paid for by locals).

[Armstead]

12. Our mushy message is one reason for my OP

I agree that we do need to do a lot better job of selling.

The problem, I'm not sure if we really know what we're selling.

Personally I believe that liberalism with a progressive kick is very sellable, and needn't be soft pedaled or watered-down to be politically viable.

But IMO that requires a difficult mix of ultimate goals and specifics to get there.

As in healthcare. I don't know that we could get Universal healthcare done immediately. But we have to do more e than chip around the edges It requires a real plan that we come out with and push.

It's got to require more than saying we believe everyone should have access to healthcare. The Republicans say that too.

Differentiating ourselves in real concrete terms is as important as a passionate larger message.But if we set that as the goal and have a consistent set of steps to reach that goal, that'd be an important start.

[sandnsea]

8. Nobody cares about flag burning

They care about keeping their kids from being murdered by a child molestor who has been in and out of prison 5 times. That's one example. We need to figure out how to keep our basic values of criminal civil rights, the possibility of rehabilitation, and sincere desire to keep children safe. It's hard to do, so Hillary goes after some dumb-ass flag burning bill instead. That's the problem, not the basic values of most Democrats.

[Armstead]

15. It's the V-Chip strategy

Don't like violence on television? Put in a v-chip.

Instead of attacking the core reasons -- including Big Media consolidation and the wrongheaded emphasis on "profit uber alles" that has made the media irresponsible -- Bill Clinton came out with the V-chip strategy to avoid the real issues while making it seem like we've got a solution.

[mdmc]

21. kick for the woody avatar!

:kick:

I'm all about Woody Guthrie!

[sandnsea]

7. Face reality and talk to the red states

By talk I mean listen too. We have to listen to their needs and ideas about family and community and jobs. We have to face reality about our place in the world. We have to find new ways to talk about issues that respects various cultures and values. We have to do alot more than just beat Bush and the Republicans or the Establishment.

[Armstead]

13. I think most people recognize the problems already -- It's the answers

What I find most frustrating is talking to people like my brother. he's what you'd call a classic middle management type guy with basically liberal instincts mixed with self-centeredness.

People like my brother know that things are screwed up and they're angry about it on an instinctive basis. But they'rre also cynical and fatalistic that anything can be done about it -- because our side stopped offering real answers.

Not to sound like an old fart (age 54) but at least when I was younger, there two basic choices in the partisan system. Many people were Democrats out of self-interest. They knew the Democrats stood for policies that were in their best interests, and it was almost a default position to be a liberal.

Somehow we've got to get back to that sense of making the majority believe that the Democrats and liberals will both make their own lives better and also fill the altrusitic sense that most peopeol also have (even when it doesn;t seem obvious).

[mdmc]

27. this type of discussion is beneficial , and is what I come to DU

for.
:kick:
:dem:


(lame rant below...ignore...)
My friends are all liberal progressives...I just have a hard time getting them out to vote. Actually, I have beaten my friends into submission and they know that on election day, they are GOTV (going out to vote / get out the vote). They know that they are going to have to sign petitions. They know that on election day I might call them to transport a voter to the polls. They used to hide in bars from me, lol. Now they know how important it is now. <-lame

[Coexist]

23. I live in a red county in a red state - I hear them everyday.

Most, when you gently debate them, have no problem with liberals (me- OR my basic beliefs)- just the caricature of them that is out there.

Those who are hard-and-fast bushbots will never change - we will never get their vote.

[Armstead]

29. That's the crux of it

I think when spelled out clearly and relentlessly, liberal positions on wealth, power and econom,ic security appeal to a majority of people. And if some might more socially conservative, then they still accpet the notion of "live and let live" freedom and rights for all.

But we have to know what we believe and "own" those beliefs ourselves if we are going to be able to sell them.

There are some diehard Bushbots who will reject anything that is not cranked out by the RNC too, but its a waste of time to water down our basic principals to try and get them to see the light.

[sandnsea]

38. That's my experience too

In both Oregon and Montana. Sometimes I wonder if beltway Dems are listening to the Bushbots and confusing them with the reasonable middle who truly just vote against the liberal caricature, not liberal values.

[radio4progressives]

17. parcipatory democracy , honest process, real representation n/t

[Armstead]

22. Not to be Socratic but....

what do those mean in specific real-world terms? That's the question we should be asking, both inside ourselves and amongst ourselves.

From what I've seen on DU, you yourself know what those mean, because you have a good grasp of issues and a clear sense of where you want to see things headed.

However, what my point was that things like the Hackett-Brown fiasco shows how our side too often seems to be pulling ourselves in different directions.

IMO, in terms of actual prospects of real change, Brown in teh Senate would be a great step forward in terms of actually having Democrats who would fight for our beliefs and principals.

It would be a great outcome if Brown became a Senator and Hackett got into the House. Alas, that didn't happen, but if Brown gets into the Senate that will still be a major victory for progressives.

But instead of accepting the FUBAR aspects of how this happened and unifying to get a good progressive into the Senate, there's much wailing and gnashing of teeth and -- worse -- animosity and division where none should exist.

[brentspeak]

18. One of the reasons I'm a Democrat and not a Republican

is because I believe in "fair play". What happened to Paul Hackett was not "fair play"; it was more like the kind of dirty politics the Republicans like to play.

Does anyone else think it's a little odd that this current generation of elected Democrats doesn't fight nearly this hard against the Republicans, but that they do fight dirty against their fellow Democrats?

[Greyhound]

36. More than odd, it's as if they were pushing us toward the same fate

the re:puke:s have in store for us. :tinfoilhat:

[radio4progressives]

19. Civil liberties, transparent and accountable governance, principled

ethical, courageous leadership - fighting on behalf of the people.

today Russ Feingold needs our help, and everyone is focused on the latest party shannigans engineering the outcome of elections. that's a big, big issue, but not nearly as big as the violence being done to the only living doctrine that governs our democracy and protects the citizens of this nation from dictatorial thugs, thieves and despots hijacking our country.

today Russ Feingold, is the lone voice in the wilderness..

the question is why?

what do we really believe in?

[mdmc]

20. ranting response

I believe that corporations own America, and that the two big parties are in allegiance with the corporations.
The dems are better then the neo - cons. I support the dems.

I want compassion.
I want liberty.

I'm all for high taxes, big government. I'm all for progressive social issues. I'm all for making humanity a better place (healing, learning, peaceful).

[bvar22]

25. Here is what will "sell" in America!

THIS IS "THE CENTER"


In recent polls by the Pew Research Group, the Opinion Research Corporation, the Wall Street Journal, and CBS News, the American majority has made clear how it feels. Look at how the majority feels about some of the issues that you'd think would be gospel to a REAL Democratic party:

1. 65 percent say the government should guarantee health insurance for everyone -- even if it means raising taxes.

2. 86 percent favor raising the minimum wage (including 79 percent of selfdescribed "social conservatives").

3. 60 percent favor repealing either all of Bush's tax cuts or at least those cuts that went to the rich.

4. 66 percent would reduce the deficit not by cutting domestic spending but by reducing Pentagon spending or raising taxes.

5. 77 percent believe the country should do "whatever it takes" to protect the environment.

6. 87 percent think big oil corporations are gouging consumers, and 80 percent (including 76 percent of Republicans) would support a windfall profits tax on the oil giants if the revenues went for more research on alternative fuels.

7. 69 percent agree that corporate offshoring of jobs is bad for the U.S. economy (78 percent of "disaffected" voters think this), and only 22% believe offshoring is good because "it keeps costs down."


There is a persistant MYTH perpetuated by the DLC and the Corporate Media that "The Center" is somewhere to the 'RIGHT" of Hillary Clinton. It is not. The ABOVE is the CENTER of America (not just Democrats)

Can you think of any reason why the above has NOT been adopted as the Democratic Party Platform?

[Coexist]

28. even Florida raised the minimum wage

even though Outback Steakhouse and the like waged a very expensive campaign to defeat it.

Yeah, Florida.

[Armstead]

32. Nevada too, I believe

There was some otehr "red" state that passed a higher min wage in 2004

[mdmc]

39. kick or post 25

:kick:

[reformedrepub]

30. Ive been on both sides...

Since I used to be a Republican, maybe I can shed some light on it. I'm gonna put on some flame retardant pants though and I hope I don't offend anyone. Here Goes. You want to win, you can still be progressive/populist and win, You just have to frame the debate right.

Abortion-Admit that abortion is not a great thing, but emphasize that it must be kept legal, in order to protect womens lives and mental health (rape and incest)...(abortion should not equal birth control)

Gun Control-You/we have got to make the vocal leaders of the our party aware of the difference between a hunting rifle/shotgun and an Uzi. It makes out party look weak and ignorant to rural/exurban people when we talk about assault rifles and they are standing there holding a semi auto 30/30 in their hands, that said, nobody hunts deer with an AK. Please also understand that some folks live a loooong way from their nearest police officer and too often we are seen as trying to take away their method of self defense.


Illegal Immigration-Illegal Immigration is bad period. We have no idea who is coming across our southern/northern border, and many border areas are incurring huge debt from dealing with Illegals, that said, make it easier for immigrants who want to work, obey the law and contribute to society to enter our country legally.

Outsourcing-Come out strongly against it, lose the wussy position we have now. Find a way to remind Americans than organized labor gave us the middle class.

Health Care-Remind folks that all the congress critters who are against some kind of national health care system, all get top quality health care paid for by the government. Also, people gotta use a little common sense. Very often folks without insurance, head for the ER for things like splinters, hangnails, blisters and run of the mill headaches...I was an EMT, Ive seen this happen. This drives cost up tremendously, not mention the screw job we are all getting from the health care cabal.

Taxes-Make people understand that for every federal tax cut they get, their state taxes go up proportionally. For those that, pay no state income tax..explain to them that is why their services suck.

Iraq-Jeez I don't even pretend I know the answer to this one, other than explain to people that the pre war intel was cherry picked, the troops don't have what they need to win and things like abu grahib happen because you have mess people and admin soldiers guarding prisoners with no supervision.

If we do all this we should be able to start making bigger gains in the midwest, south and rockies....Just my two cents!!

[Armstead]

31. I can't see any need for flame retardant pants

You hit several nails on the head IMO. I'd only add more, such as attacking the very philosophy that allowing a few corporations to take over everything is bed for everyone.

Heck, I'd even go further on gun control than you. I say drop the issue on the federal level. Enforce whatever laws already exist but leave it to the state to regulate beyond that....Otherwise, leave it alone, because it detracts from much more important issues.

But that's just my opinion.

[rucky]

33. Dean called it "A struggle for the soul of the Democratic Party"

The message is simple: Let the people decide. everything else is window dressing.

[Armstead]

34. But who decide what?

I weasn't merely referring to the Hackett flap, but to a much bigger and longer state of confusion on our side (however you define that).

The only way I think it applies here is that the problem in Ohio was more a matter of personality and style and political machinations than where people want to take this country.

Without a clear shared core vision, we are too susceptable to this kind of thing.

[rucky]

35. Actually, that is a core vision.

republicans elect their representatives to act like kings. Once their in, they don't really care what their leaders do.

Democrats put their leaders through hell because we demand more accountability (from the executive and legislative branches). some people want to keep this as a power struggle among two unified factions, led by the elite Dems and elite Republicans, and are working very hard to keep the base "in line" with the leaders. That is against most of our principals - even though it could be seen as a sound strategy, it has no heart. We are not ones to buy into an "end justifies the means" arguement. The PROCESS of democracy is more important than the products, no matter how ugly and anxiety producing it appears to be on its surface. We need to believe this and practice what we preach, and have the courage to know that we will win as long as we stay true to ourselves.

[Armstead]

37. Good point

[mdmc]

40. I believe in Bernie

http://www.canofun.com/cof/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=17297