Howard Dean stole my wallet!

[Radical Activist]

There seem to be a number of random posts about Dean that don't relate to anything so I thought I would add my own.

Over 80% of Americans pray on a regular basis. We will never win nationally if we don't attempt to attract Christians. This is the party of William Jennings Bryan. It would be nice to see more Democrats preaching the social gospel again. Its very easy to argue for liberal values using Biblical teachings. It doesn't hurt to do so. It might hurt the party if we don't.

[ixion]

1. yeah, except for the separation of church and state...

Bryan was the active principal in the Scopes Monkey trial, and made a complete fool of himself.

Government is simply not about religion.

Just my two cents.

[Radical Activist]

2. Government is about values

and how people interact with eachother. Since a large number of Americans derive their value system from religion, it is unavoidable.

[OzarkDem]

3. Agree

and its time Dems stop letting the GOP hijack the values message, as they have the patriotism message.

[ixion]

12. government is NOT about values... at least it shouldn't be

values are related to the individual and the family, and then extended to the surrounding community.

Governments should in no way, shape or form attempt to legislate morality. To do so is a slippery slope, and always winds us right up where we are today.

Government should be about the facilitation of the common infrastructure, and providing for a common defense, and nothing more.

Just my two cents. :hi:

[Radical Activist]

14. The idea

that we shouldn't enter a war of aggression is a value statement.
The idea that murder is wrong is a value.
The idea that government should take some steps to help those most in need is a value.
Your position sounds libertarian. I think government is a legitimate means for the people to act collectively.

[ixion]

16. I think everyone can agree that murder is wrong

there are a few things like that, that only the extreme sociopaths and social darwinists will disagree with.

I think it's pretty clear that you shouldn't hurt other people, and that everyone pretty much agrees on that point.

And I think that part of the common infrastructure is providing medical care, housing and food to those who need it. Taking care of the poor is a halmark of any enlightened society.

And that's really the crux of what I'm driving at: an enlightened society.

Enlightened societies don't start wars of aggression, or wars against abstractions like 'drugs' or 'terror'.

Enlightened societies don't put non-violent offenders behind bars for making lifestyle choices (e.g. using drugs).

Enlightened societies have come to the realization that a bureaucracy of endless laws is a quagmire that ultimately cannot stand.

What I want is for people to be able to lead their lives without fear of intrusion from their government.

Incidentally, since you seem to need to label me, I'm an independent. :-)

[Jeffersons Ghost]

11. the separation od Church and State is VERY important

but almost EVERY candidate who has ever won high office has held up a Cross in some sense. Separation of Church and State has never superseded a candidate's right to free speech or Public Religious displays, as put forth in the 1st Amendment. Much of what I just wrote is Court opinions.

[robcon]

4. Your statistic sounds wrong

and it is

"Over 80% of Americans pray on a daily basis..."

Actually the number is 47%...

Forty-seven percent (47%) of Americans say that they pray every day or nearly every day. A Rasmussen Reports survey found that 18% say they rarely or never pray.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/2005/Prayer.htm

[Radical Activist]

6. I've seen polls that back the 80% number

A quick google search found this one...

Almost a third of the public say they pray several times a day, and two thirds pray at least once a day. Less than one in 10 Americans say they "never" pray.

Those most likely to pray on a daily basis include non-whites (83 percent), seniors (79 percent), women (75 percent), Republicans (74 percent) and Southerners (74 percent).

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,141885,00.html

[jonnyblitz]

7. it wouldn't suprise me if that many did, seriously.

especially if this number comes from a Faux News poll....:thumbsup: :sarcasm:

[MissWaverly]

5. we need to reach out/Dean is right

We have to fight those who are wrapping themselves around the pulpit so that they can run
their political campaigns inside the shelter of religion, so that every campaign contribution
is tax deductible. We ignore the clout of these individuals at our peril.

[Jacobin]

8. If Hillary is getting paid off by Rupert of the Dark Side

I don't EVEN want to hear anyone bitching about Howard dropping by the DingBat Diner.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

9. Have you ever been in sales?

One of the first rules in sales is to listen to the customer. Figure out something about him/her, how they view the world. When you talk to them, you use the words/worldview they are comfortable with in order to get your point across. (This is also a rule for anyone trying to teach another).

Are you for helping the poor?

Promoting peace?

Championing tolerance?

Well, religious values say these things. If you are trying to convince an undecided voter to vote Democratic, and you see them wearing a cross, or wearing a yalmuka, or perhaps wearing hijab, why not use religious arguments to convince them? This is their worldview, and this is how they can understand where you are coming from. If you start out from a secular humanist standpoint, or even worse, belittle their beliefs, they won't understand you, and won't listen to you.

What we need to be doing is looking for common ground. You do this by listening to the people you are talking to, and showing respect for their world view, even if it doesn't agree with your worldview. If I were to try and convince an atheist to vote Democratic, I would try my best not to use religious analogies to bring my points home-hey, even as I wrote this, I changed "belief system" to "world view" to show respect for atheists here who have objected to the word "belief".

[Radical Activist]

10. great point

reminds me of the same point Saul Alinksy made in a different way in Rules for Radicals where he encourages activists to learn about the Bible since it is the most widely read and understood source of language and stories in American culture.

[ComerPerro]

13. Watch what happens in the MSM whenever a Dem even mentions God

Religion is the wholly owned and exercised resource of the Republican Party. They have the copyright, trademark, patent, whatever else.


Bush talks about how Jesus is his favorite philosopher (partly to look deeply Christian, partly out of ignorance of any other philosopher's name, let alone their philosophies) and the media gushes, lavishing him with praise for being a man of deep faith and one who "walks with Jesus".

Any Democrat gets caught on film attending church (even if they go every Sunday) and the media jumps all over him, calling it pandering and a publicity stunt...



So how do you propose we "reach out" to these supposed Christians?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

15. Walk my talk

I've been called a "good Christian" by more than one person (I'm a Sufi initiate :) ); when an opening comes up, I show what I have done and point out what Bush and my local repuke conman haven't done. Then I ask if they are really sincere, or are they like the hypocrites discussed in the Bible. I talk about the hypocrite who prays loudly in the street, making a big show of it, while a Christian prays in his closet. This makes people think. More than one Christian who used to support Bush has understood this analogy, and some are even saying they feel he is the anti-Christ.

[MercutioATC]

17. Yeah, but the way to do it isn't by misrepresenting our positions.

"Yeah, we don't believe in gay marriage either" is NOT an appropriate way to win votes from fundies.

[LittleClarkie]

18. He acknowledged that he misspoke

He's human after all. I tend to believe that he did indeed misspeak, and didn't intend to misrepresent.

And don't forget the rest of that passage you quoted from talks about inclusion, dignity and rights.

[MercutioATC]

19. That's not what I was addressing. I was speaking of the following:

(quote from the OP)


"Over 80% of Americans pray on a regular basis. We will never win nationally if we don't attempt to attract Christians. This is the party of William Jennings Bryan. It would be nice to see more Democrats preaching the social gospel again. Its very easy to argue for liberal values using Biblical teachings. It doesn't hurt to do so. It might hurt the party if we don't."

I'm simply pointing out that even if it "attracts Christians", selling out gays is unacceptable.

That said, I appreciate that Dean has retracted his misstatement. Let us not, however, be fooled into saying that he "misspoke". Dean is the Chair or the DNC. He's pretty free to state his opinion, even if it differs from the official party line and has done so on numerous occasions. He didn't simply misstate the official opinion of the DNC, he stated his own opinion...that "marriage" is between a man and woman.

THAT'S what I take issue with, not the error itself. Trying to deflect this by pointing out all of the good he has done or claiming that "nobody's perfect, he made a mistake" is disingenuous...

I think that Dean really believes in a "separate but equal" status for gays. Is it enough to discount his achievements? Not for me. However, it IS something for which he should be taken to task.

[LittleClarkie]

21. Now that's a different discussion than I've seen others have

When I've pointed out that civil unions has always been Dean's position, they've said that this was not what they had an issue with, but his "misrepresentation". On the other hand, you seem less concerned with his misrepresentation/misspeaking than whether or not this is his actual position.

Well, yes it is, always has been. If that is what he should be taken to task for, then he should have been taken to task for it long ago. Why now? Because of his comments on CBN? Only for those who had never paid sufficient attention to the man to know how he stood in the first place.

This is nothing new. I don't understand the surprise. That to me seems disingenuous. Only one of our candidates in 2004 supported marriage instead of civil unions. Dennis Kucinich. All the rest supported civil unions.

Even so, two men showed some backbone on the issue: Kerry and Dean. Kerry, for not taking Clinton's advice and supporting DOMA, and Dean for signing a civil union bill in his home state that some thought damaged him for the election. Clinton certainly seemed to think so.

If anyone needs to be taken to task, it would seem to be Clinton.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

20. Black people are only, what 10-15% of the vote?

And there's, what, 30% of white americans still against interracial marriages? I say the next time a high ranking democrat attends a klan meeting, he tells them we should be against interracial marriages.

It couldn't hurt. Why not?

[Radical Activist]

22. That's an irrelevant comparison.

Democrats don't have to change our positions in order to argue for them in terms that will appeal to Christians. I often wonder why more Democrats don't simply say something like, "Jesus told us to love our neighbor. He didn't list exemptions to that policy for gays, illegal immigrants, Muslims and others who are different from yourself."
I know there are racist Christian who follow Bush like he's a cult leader, but there are also others who can be persuaded to see things a different way if an effort is made.