"both parties are the same"...

[SHRED]

...and other similar nonsense.

A simple check of Congressional voting records and Bills authored clearly shows the differences between Dems and Repubs.
To claim that "they are both the same" reveals more about the person saying it then anything else.
It reveals a laziness and willingness to buy into a negative mindset that somehow absolves the person (or so they think) from being an educated and responsible voter.

[leesa]

1. Thank the DLC for that perception. "Ya gotta talk, act and be a Republican

to win as a Democrat" What other conclusion are people going to come to?

[bullimiami]

2. this is a method of confusing an argument you cant win.

anytime a repub sympathizer tells you the parties are no different its because they have nothing to be proud of.

[SHRED]

3. correct

We have heard for years, from the Repubs, that they are way different and more moral but now they try and diffuse their own party from it's flaming nosedive by the, "both the same" nonsense.
Desperation is ugly folks.

[rep the dems]

4. Ugh, I remember one of my friends saying that a few months ago.

I really think that a lot of people who say these things think that it makes them look intelligent, even though they have nothing to back it up with. Then they'll name 2 or 3 democrats that they don't like, thus proving that every democrat in Washington is a jerk. :eyes:

[wryter2000]

11. They think it makes them look sophisticated and knowledgable

As if they're in the know about what goes on behind closed doors.

[rep the dems]

13. Exactly

[savemefromdumbya]

5. this is what you get on the door step

people don't check congressional records and show no interest in any of the legislation that's passed. Most do not have a clue what is going on. All they know is what's on Tv or in the newspapers.....

[SHRED]

6. I concur...

Check out what Bills each party puts forth in Congress.
Check out how they vote.
Check out the $$ backing candidates.

The Repubs are miles and miles ahead in their fight for Corporate domination of us.

It's not even close.

[Warpy]

7. If you're a person who has a job instead of a career,

you didn't do well during the Clinton years, either, although more dead end jobs were available to you should you have decided you really couldn't abide your boss for one more day. Face it, for the bottom 80%, things weren't really that much better on a day to day basis. To them, things like the losses of the Geneva Conventions, the separation between church and state, and habeas corpus are still abstracts.

The Democrats are going to have to recognize that fact if they're going to energize their working class base. They're going to have to offer an alternative to corporatization, globalization and anti labor government.

Both parties have been killing hope for a very long time.

[SHRED]

9. you make good points

I think we can agree also, that the need for more choices at the voting booth is critical.
We need more parties involved.
Do we need to get rid of the electoral college?
Publically funded election process?

How do we break the iron grip both parties have on this lock?

[Peace Patriot]

19. We could start by throwing Diebold, ES&S and all election theft machines

into 'Boston Harbor'!

The latest corporate ruler coups have occurred as the result of private--not to mention Bushite--corporations "counting" all the votes with TRADE SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code, with virtually no audit/recount controls.

I mean, come on.

Let's start with going back to REAL elections.

Then we can talk about political VARIETY.

Step one, priority one: transparent, verifiable elections. (--in the primaries, too!)

-----------------

How?

The people are showing the way by MASSIVE Absentee Ballot voting this fall. It's up to 50% to 60% in some places. BOYCOTT the machines! If the "consumers" won't use it, the "product" is dead.

Simple.

Ridicule the corrupt fools who bought all these expensive, insecure, extremely insider hackable voting machines. DON'T VOTE on the machines! Let them gather dust. FLOOD election officials with MOUNTAINS of Absentee Ballots. Force them to reform the system, or resign. Yeah, AB votes are not particularly "safe" in this corrupt environment--and will not insure accurate vote counts this fall. Nothing can. But if enough people BOYCOTT the machines and vote by AB, this will give election reformers a club with which to beat LOCAL/STATE election officials into getting rid of this rigged electronic system.

Then, and only then, will we be able to start addressing other badly needed reforms--like busting up the war profiteering corporate news monopolies, busting up and seizing the assets of the gas gouging oil giants, and removing private money from political campaigns (for which a Constitutional amendment is needed).

Don't dream of a Congressional Constitutional amendment on paper ballots (as someone here suggests). We couldn't even get Congress to require a "paper trail" for Diebold's election theft machines! And no Congress (s)elected by Diebold/ES&S--Democratic or otherwise--is going to bite the hand that empowers them. (Democrats might require a paper ballot backup, but they will never get rid of "trade secret" programming in the central tabulators--and, with very inadequate auditing and rare recounts, that leaves the corporations still in control; HR 550--the current proposed remedy--leaves a loophole for just this).

Pressure on LOCAL/STATE election officials. That's the path back to democracy. Step one, anyway.

It's not going to be easy. But we can't get anywhere with secret corporate vote "tabulation"--where they can tweak any close election--or outright flip a big majority into a minority--undetectably--and be given cover by the corporate news monopolies AND the Democratic Party leadership. (I'm beyond anger at this--our betrayal by our Party leadership. It's just a fact. This is what Corporate money DOES.)

Step one, priority one: transparent, verifiable elections. Then we'll talk about policy.

------------------

Note: The difference between the Fascists (Republicans) and the Corporatists (about half of the Democrats, including the most powerful of them) is, a) the latter like to maintain the forms of democracy and lawful rule--and thus we peons at least have a chance at justice and fairness on some issues; and b) all money, resources and power to the TOP, controlled by a tiny elite, vs. some money, resources and power spread around to the "lower" levels.

These differences mean quite a lot to the poor and the middle class, in immediate terms. And how anyone can say otherwise, I don't know. To someone making $7/hr, a wage increase--or a gas price difference--of $1 means a lot. However, where the "no difference" meme rings true is on overarching Corporate Ruler policy, such as weakened federal regulation of monopolies (particularly noticeable as to the news media--started by Clinton), globalization and the outsourcing of jobs (started by Clinton), the systematic weakening of environmental regulation (systematic weakening under Corporate Democrats--as opposed to the wholesale brutal assault on environmental regulation under the Fascist Republicans), and the systematic privatization of the commons--our parks, our schools, our hospitals, our military. Upshot: the Fascist Republicans are one face of Corporate Rule. The Corporate Democrats are a more disguised and slightly kinder face of Corporate Rule. And only the REAL Democrats--who have little power in the Party or the Congress--represent the REAL interests of the MAJORITY of Americans, but even most of them would not likely favor (or, rather, feel free to advocate) what really needs to be done, for our interests to be served, and that is the busting up of the corporate monopolies--or at least the worst bad actors among them*--and the seizure of their assets for the common good. For that we need a real political system, free of corporate money, and real elections, free of corporate "trade secret" programming.

-----

*(I'm thinking in particular of, a) the corporate news monopolies, especially those with war profiteering subsidiaries; b) other war profiteers (Halliburton, CACCI, Bechtel, et al); and c) the oil companies. But nominate your own. We've got bad actor corporations all over the landscape--and they didn't get where they are today--turned into monstrous, everlasting, ever-expanding monopolies of wealth and power--starting only 6 years ago.)

[dsc]

16. that is baldly false

Sorry but there is no other word for that. Clinton's time was the only time during the last 30 years in which poverty declined, median incomes rose, minority unemployment declined, minority employment rose, homeowner ship rose. A case can be made that he wasn't perfect on these issues. But it is baldly false to say that the bottom 80% didn't do better under him than under any President since Nixon.

[Greyhound]

18. This is the underlying reality that allows the false claim to continue.

Sure, we hate this lie here in the Democratic echo chamber, but the reality is that the perception persists among the very people we need to support us. As Warpy pointed out, our own Demi-God lead this country for eight years, two with party control of the legislature, and managed to make things worse for those that we left behind.

We may have conveniently forgotten how his administration screwed them to satisfy their corporate masters, but those that were screwed, and their lives ruined, will never forget it. They will likely not support our party either, unless or until we come out with a solid, definitive positions that clearly state that we will stop the off-shoring, we will stop the importation of desperately poor people from other countries to do your jobs for less than half the wage, we will halt the devaluation of the degrees that you've paid tens of thousands of dollars to get, only to replace you with those that get their degrees paid for them by their countries, we will establish universal health-care and education, and accompany those claims with the plans to do it.

Yes, there is a big difference between the parties, just not enough to make any difference in their lives.

[Warpy]

22. Clinton said it best, although his follow through was poor,

"It's the economy, stupid."

I keep seeing economic issue after economic issue keep dropping into their laps and they just stand up and let it drop.

It's incredibly frustrating.

[Greyhound]

23. Absolutely and that is what leads me to believe they have no real

interest in making things better. Economic chaos is the best environment for profiteering, and I think they have decided that this is the end-game.

[iamahaingttta]

8. They both function on Big Money

They are both beholden to Corporatia.
They both depend upon each other to define themselves.

When Gore and Bush were running against each other, I told anyone who would listen that it was a battle between Global Corporate Socialism and Global Corporate Fascism. I felt a little less uncomfortable with the first, but naturally, the second stole the show.

The two parties are different, but not all THAT different.

Sorry...

[wryter2000]

10. You said a mouthful

It reveals a laziness and willingness to buy into a negative mindset that somehow absolves the person (or so they think) from being an educated and responsible voter.

And the corollary, "They all do it," where "it" is whatever negative thing that just came to light. I imagine they all do do it to some extent (with some notable exceptions), but to suggest that both sides do it to the same extent is (as you said) laziness.

[gratuitous]

12. All-purpose answer to know-nothing nonsense

"Prove it." Does the person saying that really think the Democrats would spend 1,500 hours investigating the possible improper use of the White House holiday card list and only 12 hours investigating Abu Ghraib? And that's just one example.

[SHRED]

14. zing!

love it!

[kineneb]

15. good points to use on the "morals" crowd

Dems are not perverts.
don't think I have heard of many Dems being busted for their "interesting" sexual proclivities...
especially with minors of either gender...
Clinton's adventures were with consenting adults of opposite gender...


:evilgrin:

[trof]

17. No-No-No! We're the FUN one.

'Struth.
:-)

[bobbolink]

20. Tell RFK, Jr that

He's saying that Republicans are ALL corrupt, and 75% of Dems are corrupt.

Yup, that's quite a difference.

So, ya better go after Bobby!

[Imagevision]

21. Bush and this HIS ADMINISTRATION - the worst in US. history