I am sick of the fear mongering by conspiracy theorists!

[Zynx]

They are not contributing anything to the discussion and are simply cluttering up the forums with their dreck.

They are re-writing history to have us believe Kerry had some magical huge lead that was stolen from him. This is not the case. Kerry was behind in most national polls and most final polls in Ohio. http://surveyusa.com/Scorecards/Scorecard2004AllGeneralX.html

Look it up. The truth is that almost all results in 2004 were within the realm of possibility. We have massive leads in most key races this year and consistent ones. They would have a damn hard time stealing any of the statewide races in Ohio or Pennsylvania.

We're going to win on November 7th. It's as simple as that.

[JuniperLea]

1. Oh go suck an egg... eom

[Zynx]

3. Rather than dismiss this, why not dispute something I said.

The fact is that polling this time is significantly different than in 2004.

[JuniperLea]

7. Quite frankly, I don't want to be sucked into a circular argument

There have been plenty of reports in the past few days alone showing that the voting machines are flipping votes.

Stick your head in the sand if you like, your call.

Everyone needs to get out and vote regardless. I think that's what we all want anyway, so why not say something positive to encourage that end instead of posting flame bait, hmmm?


:eyes:

[springhill]

22. This passage from Mark Crispin's interview.........

sums up my feelings on the subject.

Mark Crispin Miller: Yes. The liberals and progressives who reject the “theory” of Republican election fraud have tended to deploy the same rhetorical technique. We can’t call it a counter-argument because it’s really not an argument at all, but mere ad hominem attack: “Anyone who says this is insane.”

What’s especially disturbing about that reaction is that it repeats the primary talking point of the Bush Republicans, who from the start have changed the subject by smearing those who try to talk about it.

The Bush Republicans relied entirely on ad hominem attack in their highly organized response to The Conyers Report on Jan. 6, 2005. That was the day the Congress formally recorded each state’s electoral votes, and there was a Democratic challenge to Ohio’s numbers, thanks to Barbara Boxer. Following that challenge, each house retired to debate the challenge—which meant debating the abundant evidence compiled by Conyers and his Democratic colleagues on the House Judiciary Committee. It was a remarkable debate, although it wasn’t really a debate, since there was no exchange about the evidence. The Democrats kept trying to focus on the evidence in the report, while the Republicans would just deny that there was any evidence in the report, and heap abuse on those who had the gall to note the evidence. As I point out in Fooled Again, the House “debate” was very tightly scripted, with the same incendiary phrases popping out of different speakers’ mouths, to make the point that anyone who tried to talk about the evidence was a “conspiracy theorist,” “paranoid,” “sore loser,” etc. To all the evidence in the report the Bush Republicans replied by shouting that there wasn’t any, and that whoever said there was, should be on medication in a padded cell.

http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/06/02/int06005.html

[Marnieworld]

69. yep

It's like calling Al Gore a "fear-mongering conspiracy theorist" because he speaks about Global Warming and wants to provoke change. He has tons of facts and science on his side but people dismiss him like this too. Just because something is unpleasant doesn't make it false.

[NEDem]

2. get your flame retardant suit on

I agree with you, for the most part, but the stolen vote people are going to come out of the wood works on this one.

[Zynx]

4. They can bite me.

They contribute absolutely nothing but bitching and moaning.

[NEDem]

5. I agree on that point 100%

[pberq]

26. See post #22 - you are repeating Republican talking points

[NEDem]

46. I don't need to see any link

I think what I think, not going to change my mind.

[Marnieworld]

70. So you believe on Wednesday what you did on Monday?

Despite what happened on Tuesday?

[bluestateguy]

6. but it's so much easier to whine about voting machine conspiracies!

I think you're right. Was Blackwell up to a lot of tomfoolery in Ohio? Yes he was, but it was not enough to swing the election.

[Singular73]

8. I agree 1000000% percent

Kerry was behind heading into election day. I expected him to lose.

We should win this one.

Statistically, it would be tough for them to mess with this one.

[lapauvre]

9. Oh, if only it were limited to "Kerry" conspiracies.

I had to leave my very favorite and intensely posted msn group message board because just about any message thread was open season to bring in everything from "Remember the Maine," to "Did FDR know about Pearl Harbor," to Lee Harvey Oswald (of course he never fired a shot), to Larry Silverstein owning the twin towers, to the "fact" that the buildings were brought down by demolition, to the "fact" that there was no plane crash in PA, to the "fact" that there was no plane involved in the hit on the Pentagon.

This all started as 9/11 anniversary approached and hasn't let up yet.

When I disagreed and made a comparison to the conspiracy theories of the John Birch Society, I was told by the owner of the message board: Anyone who mocks a conspiracy theory is either very ignorant or very evil.

Hey, I detest this administration, but I refuse to accept giving it god like powers to perform impossible tasks just to start a war with Iraq. There would have to be too many people involved.

The John Kerry Conspiracy thing is something of which I am unaware, other than the "swift boating" crap.

However, I do think there was some sort of conspiracy within the DNC when it came to Iowa.
I think Dean was a cinch until the last minute. Far more presence, more intensity, more appeal, more speaking skills, more turning the brown grass roots green. And all of a sudden, bang, we get Kerry.

Kerry did a miserable job of campaigning. The most important thing he didn't condescend to answer was the replaying of the video when testifying before one of the Houses. Historically and truthfully, the statements he was making about atrocities in Viet Nam were not his own but had been brought to his attention at an earlier meeting. That's why it wasn't his medals that went over the fence, but medals belonging to those who asked him to do it. He never bothered to make that clear, and it was used against him.

Sorry. I voted for Kerry because I am opposed to GW. I did not LIKE Kerry, and still don't.

[AlwaysQuestion]

23. C'mon, make my day and tell me you're only kidding; else,

You and others of similar "mind" are precisely why the U.S. is in the mess it's in--indeed, why the world is in the mess it's in. You are wholesale propaganda ingesters; you feed at the trough of swill. Your brain waves are flat lines. The only evidence you will believe is that which is meticulously fed to you by corporate media and your disdain for those who practice plain common sense is repugnantly unsound. And so it is that I compliment the masterful U.S. propaganda machine. I see their product in you--and a magnificent specimen of mush you are. The Russian authorities must be mad with envy.

Having said that, anyone here who believes that if the Democrats take over the reins of Congress things will get much better will be disappointed. Things may improve but only marginally so. I say this because the Democrats have had plenty of time and ammunition to rally the American people into a feeding frenzy over this administration's successful attempts at tearing down the walls of democracy. It didn't. Why?

By the way, if you ever want to dig yourself out from the mire you're steeped in, keep reminding yourself that to those who are in power, you and yours and me and mine are but pawns. Those in high office and those who support them financially use you to their best advantage. They're not in politics or business to make your life easier; they're in politics and business to make their lives easier. And for those exceptions who really do want to make a difference to the common man, they are eaten alive by the system. As your quality of life diminishes; as your schools continue to decline; as the justice system continues to deteriorate; as the inner cities with their rampant drugs and crime become increasingly worse; as the quality of air only worsens; as water becomes scarce and food supplies dwindle from drought or floods , remember one thing, these are the results of wholesale conspiracies against the masses. One day, my friend, you'll choke on that sentence.

[MadHound]

25. So, you buy every single official story?

Then buy this these historical realities. Back in the late thirties FDR had an eight point plan drawn up by his intelligence folks. This was a plan to draw Japan into a war with the US. While officially tossing this plan, it is interesting to note that he followed all eight points. This is a matter of public record.

Another matter of public record is the 1979 findings of the House Select Committee on Assasinations, which found, albeit reluctantly, that yes indeed, the JFK assasination was the result of a conspiracy.

Oh, and what was that whole Iran-Contra mess in the eighties? That's right, an exposed conspiracy.

Conspiracies take place all the time. They are advocated in one of the politicians most basic works, Machiavelli's "The Prince" And there is a fair amount of evidence stating that yes, Bush and his 'Pug minions have stolen to, one degree or another, each of the last three elections. No reason, with their asses on the line, to not suspect that they'll do it again this year.

But hey, go ahead and keep believing that all of politics is honesty and light. Just don't be too let down when you finally realize otherwise.

[durtee librul]

49. One of my friends

was in the audience prior to the WI primary and happened to overhear Kerry tell a staffer that he had it locked up and that they should 'ignore' the rousing response John Edwards was getting with his speech while Kerry was received rather lukewarm...

I am an Edwards backer and proud of it. I have followed his career since his son died in that car crash and I like his message and I like his family as well.

Kerry was pushed on people much like I fear Hillary will be in '08. All I can say, is if they do, they might just as well concede the election before it even starts. She is way too polarizing in my opinion.

[FreeDemocrat]

63. The long and short of real conspiracy

There are a lot of folk like Loose Change that have wild stories and impossible physics, done by totally secret societies that never have a defection or internal squabbles. The physics, the secrecy, the lack of defections where one guy sleeps with a higher ups wife, the lack of squabbles where one side goes out of school to injure the other side, all point to a group that could not possibly contain any humans.

There are however a few stories that do not fit that mold, where the Conspirators have a Website, are proud of what they are doing, do not realize the absolute evil of various policies from "ends justify the means" to just murdering everyone else (of course they would put it differently, like using the death penalty to enforce laws that amount to "disagree with us and you're guilty") and have all the squabbles and defections, typical of any group of humans trying to do something together.

These type of conspiracies are only secret in that they think there is a different face to recruit their members on the web and what they say publicly. The scary part is that they have been mostly right about that.

The use of a broad range of vote fixing (and other) techniques to put Republicans in power and keep them there is just such a "Conspiracy". Most of the techniques are tried and true and used for 100 years in the South by these same fascists back when they called themselves Democrats. The electronic angle is a new bit, but only an extra tool in the box that is loaded with older tools.

To understand a deep spring of these folks ideology BBC did three one hour shows here that examines the antidemocratic Straussian mindset rather than vote fraud. Though to keep control, vote fraud becomes near necessity.

[cali]

10. I'm with you.

Thanks for writing this. Revisionist history sucks, no matter who's doing it.

[enlightenment]

14. You know, I don't necessarily disagree with the OP - though

the approach to the topic is off-putting . . .

Now - a tiny grinch:

cali - can we lose the "revisionist history sucks" meme?

ALL history is revisionist, from the moment it's written, and that particular phrase is a favorite of the conservative left, concerned that "their" version (the one where the good guys wear white hats, women are either angels or whores, and Manifest Destiny came from the mouth of god, not the pen of John O'Sullivan) of history is getting the short shaft.

Please be more specific.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

17. And frankly,

it endangers this election. It makes me much easier to just sit home moaning with your head in your hands.

[Child_Of_Isis]

18. You need to have more faith in DU'ers.

A little thing like a stolen election will not stop them (us) from voting.

After crawling on their bellies to the polls.. cut off both of their hands. I betcha they would use their tongue to vote. :pals:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

24. I like that visual

and that attitude. I'll bet you are right.

[bananas]

11. pollster Zogby predicted a Kerry win on national tv. nt

[Zynx]

20. His own polling showed Bush ahead in the national popular vote.

His own projections for states were slightly different than others. Bear in mind that just one or two states flipping from his projection ends up with what we got.

[Zhade]

39. Link? And sorry for the harsh tone earlier.

NT!

[Zynx]

58. Here's a summary of the final polling:

http://pollingreport.com/2004.htm

Kerry was behind across the board with only a few exceptions.

[Marnieworld]

71. Yah I remember that too

And comments afterwards about the results conflicting with his polls. I'll try and find a link.

[Child_Of_Isis]

12. Of course the republicans wouldn't steal an election!!!!!!

Who spoke such blasphemy????!!!! Off with their heads!!!!!

[slackmaster]

13. Yeah, me too!

[Eric J in MN]

15. Many states were polling within the margin of error before the election

...in 2004, and narrowly went for Bush or Kerry on Election Day.

[Zynx]

19. My home state was one such example. Several polls had Bush ahead

and we won it.

[ButterflyBlood]

21. I agree, but there's no point in arguing with these true believers

Just remember your ignore list.

[mhatrw]

27. I'm sick of people dismissing 100% valid concerns about

unauditable fraud-made-easy voting machines simply because there is no hard proof that they have been used to steal elections. The whole idea behind these black box voting machines is that they don't allow for hard proof when they are used fraudulently.

[Zhade]

31. Plus, the poster is dead wrong. See below.

Kerry WAS leading in the polls.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. 
[link:www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html|Click
here] to review the message board rules.

[Zhade]

29. Huge? No. Lead? Yes. I recall it vividly on election night, before bed.

The proof that the polls flipped in the middle of the night has been posted here many, many times.

I'M tired of people rewriting history to say Kerry wasn't leading, when in fact he WAS.

[Zhade]

30. Yep, I KNEW you were WRONG.

Your thread's premise is flawed. Kerry was, in fact, ahead.

Btw, this comes from DU's own Demopedia. Here's a link to more facts about Kerry's lead in the polls: http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/index.php/2004_Exit_Poll_Analysis

Maybe next time, you should actually be right about what you're decrying. In this case, you're not.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OnTheOtherHand]

34. no need to get personal when you're right

Kerry was indeed behind in most of the national polls, and the exit poll issue has indeed been run into the ground. Seems like every time I ask someone if s/he really thinks Kerry won New York by 31 points, the subject changes right quick.

EDIT TO ADD: I think the OP was about pre-election polls, whereas Zhade is talking about exit polls. Maximum feasible misunderstanding?

[Zhade]

38. I could have been more magnanimous.

I get really heated when people change history to dismiss the very real problem of electoral fraud being caused by the fascists in power.

[OnTheOtherHand]

43. we need Zynx to come back and explain the OP

or not. Maybe there is enough meta in my life already.

I assumed that the OP referred to pre-election polls, since it linked to pre-election polls. As for the exit polls, they just don't prove anything. And none of that has much to do with whether we should trust the machines. Muddle to muddle to muddle.

[ldf]

53. what exit polls?

the corporate media refused to report the exit polls.

why do you think they did that? huh?

could it be because the exit polls didn't support the vote numbers being reported?

exit polls ARE, in essence, vote polls.

pre-election polls are LIKELY voters.

exit polls are talking to those who voted.

and why would someone refuse to participate in an exit poll, and how many refused?

this is another rightwing talking point thread.

[ButterflyBlood]

57. "why would someone refuse to participate in an exit poll?"

Plenty of reasons. Maybe they don't like revealing how they voted. I've been phonebanking and have ran into such people over the phone. It's perfectly understandable in person. That's why we have a secret ballot after all. Or maybe they're in a hurry. In the primary I voted right before class and didn't have a minute to spare. If I had ran into an exit pollster, I would've told them "sorry, no time" and went on.

[OnTheOtherHand]

60. yawn

The tabulations from the state polls were posted on CNN.com a few minutes after the scheduled poll close in each state, at least each state that I was monitoring. It's true that the broadcast media didn't report on the percentages, because the exit polls aren't designed to be used in that way. They are used to help make projections, but if a state is close, the pollsters and networks wait for vote counts before calling a winner. There's nothing spooky about it. Maybe you assume that the polls are more accurate than the vote counts, but that doesn't mean that they do.

The reported rates for the exit poll were 53% completion, 37% refusal, and 10% miss, so nationwide, oh, something like 75,000 people refused. Maybe you could ask them why. Apparently you are convinced that those people are just like the 110K who did complete the survey, or at least voted the same way. Kerry really did win New Hampshire by 15. Hey, I guess stranger things have happened.

You can interpret the OP however you want -- I didn't write it. But if you are going to rant about exit polls, don't go chucking the "rightwing" label at anyone who responds.

EDIT TO ADD: I certainly don't agree with Zynx (#59) that people who talk about voting stealing and Republican GOTV efforts are "trying to depress our turnout." I like to keep things tethered in fact.

[OnTheOtherHand]

62. oops, I meant 53/36/11 n/t

[mhatrw]

36. The OP is NOT right to suggest that concern about unauditable

voting machines is relegated to the realm of unfounded conspiracy theorists.

All US citizens have every right to strongly campaign a reliable, accurate and fully auditable voting system and every right to be concerned that we don't have such a system today.

[OnTheOtherHand]

37. if it did suggest that

The problem with the OP is, people can read into it whatever they want.

What it actually says, I agree with. I also support reliable, accurate, and fully auditable voting systems.

[bobbolink]

41. Nope, it's just mean to divide and conquer...

Keep us distracted and lose energy to that kind of criticism.

Is it working?

[Zynx]

55. I am saying Republicans aren't going to magically come from behind

and erase 7-8 point deficits. They never have. All of the elections that were "stolen" were at best tied. There's this myth Bush was down in the polls and then won big based on turnout. It simply didn't happen.

[Zynx]

54. Those were partial exit polls, not pre-election polls.

We're talking apples and oranges.

[DCCyclone]

33. Thank you Zynx, YOU ARE RIGHT!!!!!! (nm)

nm

[CJCRANE]

35. That's why I read DU.

If I want the official view I can watch the corporate media.

[bobbolink]

40. And I'm sick of divisiveness! Go away!

Go divide and conquer somewhere else.

[slackmaster]

42. Nominated for most ironic post of the day

:toast:

[bobbolink]

44. Irony, schmirony, this whole thread was meant to keep us distracted

Is it working?

[slackmaster]

45. If you really believe that

Then there is something you should have done about it.

I mean, besides replying to it.

Do you know what I mean?

[OnTheOtherHand]

47. are you trying to distract us from our distraction?

I guess I never really do wear out on meta. Just when I think I've seen it all, some piquant twist catches me unawares....

[slackmaster]

48. OK, but what about meta meta?

Are you trying to distract people from being distracted by our distraction from the distraction, or something?

[OnTheOtherHand]

50. bwahahahaha!

Now you know why I've been called possibly the most dangerous poster in the history of Democratic Underground! Kneel and gibber divisively!!

Oh, speaking of posters, my wife really, really likes the art in #13.

So, have you already voted? I can't keep my jurisdictions straight.

[slackmaster]

51. CA-50, city of San Diego, have not voted yet

Stay tuned.

[OnTheOtherHand]

52. I remembered CA-50 for sure

I sent Busby a contribution in your honor, as I recall. That last SurveyUSA poll was pretty encouraging. Tough district, of course. Tuned....

EDIT TO ADD: Now I think I remember: CA has lots of absentee voting, but not early voting.

[bobbolink]

56. go ahead.

It's fine for dividers to complain, but I can't?

wow.... how really interesting.

"Wadda country" Yakov Smirnoff

[slackmaster]

67. If you think it is meant as a distraction, please explain something

Why did you reply to it, thus keeping it toward the top of the list?

(I don't think it is intended as such. If I did, I would have hit Alert.)

[Zynx]

59. Eh?

The only people hurting us are those trying to depress our turnout with all this scary talk about Republicans stealing our votes and how their turnout machine will beat us.

[bobbolink]

65. Well, then put us down on your enemies list.

Gawddess damn it! If you can't handle reality from those of us who have been working our collective butts off, trying to keep this a democracy, then go kiss up to the RW and fart in the faces of all of us Dems.

"The only people hurting us..."

Yeah, the Repubs are your friends, and we're your enemies.

Good going. That goes a long way toward building the Dem party.

[BootinUp]

61. I pledge my support brother

in your hopeless cause against the paranoid forces of evil voting hopelessness DU.

;)

[BoneDaddy]

64. If you are not afraid or angry

then you have not been paying attention.

[Mr_Spock]

66. Hehe - telling the truth on certain topics is sure to get lots of hate posts

I've made the same mistake myself here.

Don't give up just because the majority are against you. I took a rash of shit for this post http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Mr_Spock/2

lol - hang in there...

[springhill]

68. "There are no tinfoil hats anymore."

From Ambassador Joe Wilson..............

At a fundraising dinner featuring MI-09 challenger Nancy Skinner , MI-08 challenger Jim Marcinkowski and the featured guest of the evening, former Ambassador Joe Wilson .

.... serious question about how he thinks the Bush administration will respond if the Dems DO retake both houses of Congress, considering that a) Bush can now LEGALLY arrest, lock up and torture any U.S. citizen he wants to; b) Bush can now declare martial law anywhere and anytime he wants to; and c) Rumor has it that FEMA has contracted with Halliburton to build dozens of detention centers here in the U.S..

His response was, let's just say, not encouraging.

Let me put it this way: Did you see the Oliver Stone/Anthony Hopkins take on Nixon? Towards the end, when his administration is crumbling all around him, he takes Alexander Haig (Power Boothe) aside and asks him what options he has left. Haig rattles off a few last-ditch legal maneuvers, and then states, somberly, that "you do still have...the military..." ...at which point Nixon basically folds, pulling himself and the nation back from the brink of insanity.

Well, apparently something like this really happened, because Wilson described Nixon's final days very similarly. His point was this: Nixon, while deeply flawed, did in the end show some respect for the Constitution.

George W. Bush is the one who literally referred to the Constitution as "just a G-dd*mn piece of paper" some months ago.

In short, Wilson anticipates that starting November 8th (or more likely in January, when the new Congress takes office), the United States will very likely have not one, but several Constitutional crisis' occur.

I prefaced my question by admitting that I might be going into tinfoil hat territory. Unfortunately, Wilson stated that at this point, under this administration "there are no tinfoil hats anymore."

more at:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/11/3/01750/2057

[ClassWarrior]

72. You know, some of my best friends are conspiracy theorists, buttt...

...I'm damn sick of all the fear mongering too. That being said, I'm sure much of it is the product of trolls, rather than real live good ol' fashioned loveable Progressive conspiracy theorists.

Hey, we have a lot of work to do the next coupla days. Let it roll off and press on!

Never Give Up.