Robinson: "Just come out and say it: "Gee, he doesn't sound black at all"

[beaconess]

Eugene Robinson, in today's Washington Post, nails what I've been trying to explain:

An Inarticulate Kickoff

"What is it, exactly, that white people mean when they call a black person 'articulate?'". . . Will wonders never cease? Here we have a man who graduated from Columbia University, who was president of the Harvard Law Review, who serves in the U.S. Senate and is the author of two best-selling books, who's a leading contender for the Democratic presidential nomination, and what do you know, he turns out to be articulate. Stop the presses.

. . .

"Regular readers know that I think this administration's foreign policy is wrongheaded and dangerous. But I leap to {Condoleezza} Rice's defense when I hear people say, in the most patronizing tone, that she's soooooo articulate. What on earth do they expect? The woman has served as provost of Stanford University, national security adviser and secretary of state. Think maybe she ought to be able to speak in complete sentences?

"I realize the word is intended as a compliment, but it's being used to connote a lot more than the ability to express one's thoughts clearly. It's being used to say more, even, than 'here's a black person who speaks standard English without a trace of Ebonics.' . . . And the word is often pronounced with an air of surprise, as if it's an improbable and wondrous thing that a black person has somehow cracked the code. I can't help but think of the famous quote from Samuel Johnson: "Sir, a woman preaching is like a dog's walking on his hind legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all."

"Articulate is really a shorthand way of describing a black person who isn't too black -- or, rather, who comports with white America's notion of how a black person should come across."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/01/AR2007020101495.html

[Old and In the Way]

1. Obama is articulate...wish I could say the same about Biden.

And don't get me started on Bush...I'm still trying to figure out what his native tongue is because it sure as hell isn't English.

[Evergreen Emerald]

2. I am just really surprised that calling someone articulate is considered racist.

This is going too far. Honestly. Obama is articulate. Biden is not articulate. I would describe him as plain-spoken. Pelosi: not articulate at all. Indeed when she speaks I want to finish her sentences for her. She is...bumpy when she talks.

I do not believe I have said anything racist because I believe that Obama's strength lies in his discourse. When he speaks he is compelling because he is articulate. It has nothing to do with his race, just like describing Pelosi as inarticulate has nothing to do with her gender.

[beaconess]

3. No one said it's racist. It IS racially insensitive in certain contexts

as Robinson very clearly lays out. I'm sorry you can't understand the point he - and many others of us - are trying to make.

Obama is not compelling because he's "articulate." Most educated people are articulate, i.e. capable of expressing themselves clearly. Obama is no more articulate than John Edwards or Howard Dean or Dennis Kucinich or Wesley Clark. But for some reason, the fact that he's articulate is consistently commented on, as if it's surprising or worthy of note, while the others ability to articulate is treated with a shrug, as if it's no big deal.

[boobooday]

4. Yes, I agree. It is the patronizing tone

That is what is offensive and that is what Robinson is pointing out.

[beaconess]

8. Exactly!

It's unfortunate that some people think that, unless a person is wearing a hood and burning a cross while screaming racial epithets, they are pure as the driven snow on all issues of race and cannot have any insensitivity pointed out to without equating that with an accusation of racism.

We all have biases, prejudices and insensitivities. The only way to overcome them is to address them. Pointing out that Biden and other whites have certain attitudes that offend blacks - whether knowingly or unknowingly - is not the same as calling someone a racist. Unfortunately, the kneejerk reaction to any such criticism - followed by an immediate refusal to hear what is being said and an attempt to shut down any further disussion of the matter makes it all the harder for us to move beyond these problems.

[Evergreen Emerald]

5. I just read your other post on eloquence

And as I stated, I agree with you that a better description of Obama's strength in discourse is eloquence. And the use of the word "articulate" is inarticulate (as it does not effectively or accurately describe Obama's speaking ability). Therefore, I, although an educated person...am apparently inarticulate, as was Biden in his description of Obama.

[beaconess]

6. Actually, I think you are quite articulate - even the most articulate people can have

articulate-free moments. :-)

[Evergreen Emerald]

16. hehe

my phrase for the day: "articulate-free"

:)

[pampango]

37. Why is "eloquent" less patronizing than "articulate?"

Is it better because "eloquent" measures how inspirational and persuasive a person is rather than their enunciation or grammar? "Eloquent" therefore allows us to praise Obama's speaking style without judging whether he "talks like a white" or uses a more "traditional" African American speaking style. If so, I could accept that.

However, would it be acceptable to differentiate between Jesse Jackson's style as eloquent in a traditional African American style and Obama as eloquent in a more articulate style?

[beaconess]

44. I agree with your first point, but not the second

"Is it better because "eloquent" measures how inspirational and persuasive a person is rather than their enunciation or grammar? "Eloquent" therefore allows us to praise Obama's speaking style without judging whether he "talks like a white" or uses a more "traditional" African American speaking style. If so, I could accept that."

Articulateness is defined as the ability to express oneself clearly. Eloquence is a couple of steps above articulateness - it means an extraordinary facility with language, a speaking ability marked by force and persuasiveness. But, in my - and obviously many other people's - experience, many whites tend to describe as articulate blacks who, as you noted, "talks like a white."

"However, would it be acceptable to differentiate between Jesse Jackson's style as eloquent in a traditional African American style and Obama as eloquent in a more articulate style?"

I don't agree with this. I do agree that Jesse Jackson's style is eloquent in a traditional African American style. However, while he is extraordinarily eloquent, he is also extremely articulate. However, unlike Obama, whose diction and cadence is much closer to a more traditionally "white" manner of speaking, Jackson speaks with a cadence and rhythm rooted in a more African American tradition - however, articulateness and "African American style" are not mutually exclusive. Whether someone is articulate does not really depend upon their tone or cadence or even pronunciation. Some of the most articulate people I have ever known - those with an incredible ability to express themselves clearly - are Baptist preachers who speak much like Rev. Jackson does.

In my view, Obama and Jackson are equally articulate and equally eloquent. They just have different speaking styles. But, as the Biden incident has revealed, many whites truly believe that, unless a black person speaks like Obama (i.e., more like white people speak), they are not articulate. And, perhaps even worse, many of them seem to believe that Obama's manner of speaking is unusual for blacks - unusual enough that they see nothing wrong with commenting on it and expect it to be treated as a compliment.

[Toots]

20. Okay to play the Devil's advocate ..why?

Why is it that white people are amazed when a black person is "articulate"? Is it because they are not used to such things? Do they have preconceived notions about how blacks are supposed to talk and if so why is that? What justification is there for that? Why is this an issue at all?

[EffieBlack]

25. Some white people are, if not amazed, surprised when they run into black people

who are "articulate," translated to mean: "he's a lot like me!"

This is not necessarily based on outright racism - since most white people are not racist (prejudiced, yes, racist, no). It is instead based upon ignorance and lack of exposure caused by continued de facto segregation and social barriers we still have in our society. While few black Americans can go through a day without interacting with and being exposed to all manner of different kinds of white people with varying positions of power, and a broad mix of intellectual, verbal, and other capabilities in a variety of different settings (professional, social, casual etc.), many whites still go through their lives quite well without having any meaningful interaction with blacks. As a result, some whites have a very cramped view of blacks, much of it driven by images they see on the media - which, we all know, hardly presents a balanced picture of black Americans.

A while back, the National Urban League conducted a study showing how few black guests appeared on Sunday morning talk shows. Among other things, the report showed that three people - Condoleezza Rice, Colin Powell and Juan Williams - comprised the vast majority of black talk show guests while very few other blacks appeared. One of the interesting reactions to it was from whites who said, "what's the problem? Rice, Powell and Williams may be the only articulate mainstream blacks they can find to put on the shows. It's not the networks' fault that there are so few blacks who fit the bill."

It wasn't surprising that people believed this since, if they only see a handful of "articulate" blacks portrated as such on television, why wouldn't they believe that it is unusual for blacks to be "articulate." The fact that they remark on it, not to criticize, but to praise and, thus, have good intentions, makes it difficult for some of them to understand why they're being criticized for it, as if their good intentions absolve them of culpability for the negative impact such comments and attitudes can have on other people.

Biden's comments reflect this attitude among many whites. What was surprising is that Biden SHOULD know better since he certainly has been exposed to and interacted with many, many articulate mainstream blacks. I suspect that he slipped back into a mindset that he may have thought he'd overcome.

Imagine this: you're a white man watching a basketball game with an interracial group of friends. Everytime Adam Morrison scores a point, you all cheer, high-five - and each time, one of your black friends, says excitedly, "Damn! Morrison sure is COORDINATED!" And what if, you started to notice that your black friends said this about the other white players, too, but never said it about the black players? Would you find this strange? Would it start to bother you after awhile, even if they were rooting for the same teams as you and liked the players they were "complimenting?"

I have been lurking here for some time, but never felt compelled to participate in the disusssions until this week when I have been saddened to see the depth of denial and defensiveness among some white forum participants on this issue. Instead of trying to understand why so many blacks feel exactly the same way, considering that this could be more than a coincidence or wave of mass hysteria, they criticize the very people who are trying to provide them context and perspective. The refusal to even try to understand and the lack of empathy for the experiences of others is very troubling.

I hope you and others find the above hopeful. Now, I'll go back to my viewing perch.

[fishwax]

27. Nice post, EffieBlack

Welcome to DU! :hi: I hope you feel compelled to post again :D

[Karenina]

28. Welcome to DU, EffieBlack!!!

"Instead of trying to understand why so many blacks feel exactly the same way, considering that this could be more than a coincidence or wave of mass hysteria, they criticize the very people who are trying to provide them context and perspective. The refusal to even try to understand and the lack of empathy for the experiences of others is very troubling."

Your words are deeply appreciated.

[beaconess]

29. Thank you for the wonderful post, EffieBlack and welcome to DU

Don't be a stranger - we need you around here!

:hug:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

57. Read the article again. Vocalize if it helps. -nt

[no_hypocrisy]

7. Biden's slip of the tongue reminded me of a Lenny Bruce classic:

"How to Relax Your Coloured Friends at Parties", although I was pretty sure Biden wasn't thinking before he spoke.

[beaconess]

9. I bet that's a hoot - what did he say?

[no_hypocrisy]

11. Oh, just what you'd expect in the 50's:

That Joe Louis is some boxer . . .

Let me see if we can't find you something to eat. I think I saw some fried chicken and watermelon on the other side of the room.

I'd love to have you come over to my house, only thing is, can you do it after dark?

[beaconess]

17. Ha ha

[EndElectoral]

10. The fear of many blacks is to be labeled Uncle Tom..not sure how we get past this.

[MrSlayer]

12. Biden should have just trashed him.

If this is the sort of bullshit you can expect for trying to be nice, fuck it. He did nothing wrong and he's catching hell. If you are going to have to take shit at least do something to deserve it.

[beaconess]

18. How sad that, not only don't you get it, but even worse, your reaction is foul-mouthed hostility.

[CTLawGuy]

21. I agree

Some people are convinced that all white people are closet racists and will harp on any one questionable thing to scream about it.

If a racist interpretation is one of five reasonable interpretations of something, they will zoom right to the racist interpretation, despite no other evidence that comment was motivated by bias or prejudice.

This does more harm than good to race relations. I realize we all have biases, but it doesn't mean any questionable thing we say is motivated by bias.

[beaconess]

30. Why do you think people "zoom right to the racist interpretation?"

Do you think that blacks - including those who have been trying to educate others on DU in recent days - are paranoid? Are we delusional? Are we stupid? Do we just like always having to waste our time dealing with this shit?

Or could it be that we have considerable experience and insight into this and might have a rational basis for interpreting things the way we do?

Could it be that the fact that so many people still harbor bigoted views and racial stereotypes and even more supposedly "enlightened" people are astoundingly quick to and adamant about defending and justifying expression of such attitudes - to the point of attacking those of us who have the temerity to point it out and casting the perpetrators as victims - are more responsible for the damage to race relations than damaging race relations? Do you really think that if we just shut up, America's race problem will go away?

[CTLawGuy]

31. ok, ill bite

what is your rational basis for thinking Biden's comments are racist?

Frankly complaining about this stuff demeans the real problem of racism that still exists, e.g. Katrina response, police brutality, drug sentencing disparities, the drug war in general, minority vote suppression.

Why are you upset over this when black men get shot 40 times by the cops in "self-defense"?
Why don't you use your voice to talk Election day roadblocks in black areas, and signs in minority neighborhoods that intimidate voters?
I'm sure you'd rather be called "articulate" than be detained and harassed by the cops for driving in the "wrong neighborhood."

A lot of white people think there is no more racism and hearing so much complaining about a vague comment leads them to conclude there is nothing more important to talk about - thus, this must be the worst there is.

You, me and Joe Biden are all on the same side. Please, lets hear about the real problems.

[beaconess]

32. First - your premise is wrong - I have never claimed to think that Biden's comments are racist

and I defy you to find anything I said otherwise.

However, claiming that anyone pointing out racial insensitivity or other problem has accused someone of being racist is a convenient and common tactic to shut down discussion of this very important issue.

As I've repeatedly said (obviously to no effect, since I'm still regularly being accused of doing otherwise) I don't think that Biden is a racist. I believe that he, like most Americans of all races, has prejudices and biases. These problems, while not as virulent as outright racism, cause real problems in our society and, because they tend to be masked and people are uncomfortable talking about them, they fester and perpetuate.

Biden's comment was not racist. But it did reveal a mindset that is very common among many white Americans - that somehow a black person is exceptional if they possess the same attributes that white people are just assumed to have. Referring to a black person - especially one with Obama's credentials and background - as "articulate" is insulting, not only to the person being so-described, but also to other blacks. You may have noticed in these threads how many blacks have weighed in to explain how tired we are of being referred to as "articulate," simply because we can string sentences together well. It is common knowledge in our community that educated blacks are frequently referred to this way, as if it comes as a surprise.

And, as for your concern that white people hearing us "complain about a vague comment" leading to them to conclude that there is "nothing more important to talk about," I will just point out that white people who are so quick to dismiss the very real concerns of black Americans are probably not interested in the "more important" topics anyway. It really is pretty annoying to have white folk - especially supposedly "progressive" whites on DU and elsewhere - preach about inclusveness, etc., but the minute blacks have the gall to raise an issue that makes them uncomfortable, we're told that it is OUR fault that white people aren't willing to do more than pay lip service to the problem.

And finally, I do not need any lectures from you about how I should spend my time and what is and is not important in the fight for civil rights and full equal opportunity for African Americans. I have devoted my life to this cause and have more than paid my dues. And it's ridiculous to tell me that I should prefer to be called "articulate" than to be harassed by the police, as if this is an either/or situation. I would like not to be harassed by the police AND I would like not to be insulted by well-meaning but ignorant white people who still believe that somehow I should be grateful to them for telling me how smart I am and insist I shouldn't be unhappy about it since, at least I haven't been lynched.

I suggest that whites who are truly interested in the "more important" things take the time to listen to what black folk have to say about issues such as these instead of trying to dictate to us what is and is not worth their time to address. You may find that some matters you are so eager to dismiss are really important, after all.

[CTLawGuy]

33. you've said they're offensive comments

why else would you think they are "offensive" other than because you believe they are racist? Why would you say that they are "insensitive" other than becuase you believe they are racist? What other conclusion is there?

"Biden's comment was not racist. But it did reveal a mindset that is very common among many white Americans - that somehow a black person is exceptional if they possess the same attributes that white people are just assumed to have."

How do you know he assumes all white people have these qualities? I grew up around white people who are not very articulate at all, I certainly don't make that assumption.

"Referring to a black person - especially one with Obama's credentials and background - as "articulate" is insulting, not only to the person being so-described, but also to other blacks."

So if I refer to Stephen Hawking as "smart" or LeBron James as "a good basketball player" I'm being insulting? That conclusion may be obvious from looking at the careers and background of those two men, but how is it insulting to point that out?

"You may have noticed in these threads how many blacks have weighed in to explain how tired we are of being referred to as "articulate," simply because we can string sentences together well. It is common knowledge in our community that educated blacks are frequently referred to this way, as if it comes as a surprise.""

Did Biden sound surprised or are you saddling him with what other white people have said in the past? I don't dispute that white people have said that with surprise in the past, but it's not fair to assume Biden possessed the same surprise.

"And, as for your concern that white people hearing us "complain about a vague comment" leading to them to conclude that there is "nothing more important to talk about," I will just point out that white people who are so quick to dismiss the very real concerns of black Americans are probably not interested in the "more important" topics anyway."

All a flap like this does is make the equality movement look bad. It's a fact that many white people will react to this as "what, are you kidding me?" How do you expect to win these people over (and you need them)? I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying that's how it is.

White people can be made to be interested in the real issues Black Americans face. Uncle Tom's Cabin made slavery a moral issue in the 1850s by telling the slavery story to Northern Whites. People are naturally empathetic. I was moved by stories of Freedom Riders being beaten at train stations and Bull Connor assaulting demonstrators with hoses.

The white Lyndon Johnson dropped the Democratic party on a political grenade for the cause of black voting rights. Signing the voting rights crippled the Democratic party, by driving the white south out of the party - but moral righteousness REQUIRED him to do so (thank God the DLC wasn't around then). He didn't do this because some white guy called his black friend "articulate." He did this because blacks were wantonly denied the basic rights of humanity in the sickest and most disgusting ways possible.

Complaining about these comments will not move white people to be sympathetic to you. This will not foster a massive social justice movement. This is a fact. I'm not saying it's right.

I understand that you feel offended because of the connotations behind the term "articulate." I am not disputing that it is ok to express that offense, but it's not helpful to harp on it like you do as if this is some grand injustice.

[beaconess]

35. Let's see - where to begin . . .

why else would you think they are "offensive" other than because you believe they are racist? Why would you say that they are "insensitive" other than becuase you believe they are racist? What other conclusion is there?

The other conclusion is just what I said in my post. There's a difference between being racist and being prejudiced or ignorant or insensitive. Every person has prejudices and biases. Every person is not racist. Racism is a very extreme form of prejudice, which includes hard-core notions of white superiority and an ability and willingness to oppress others. If you really believe that unless you're a racist, you're pure as the driven snow on all issues of human interaction, you have such a limited and superficial understanding of race and racism in America that you really shouldn't be trying to engage on the topic.

"Biden's comment was not racist. But it did reveal a mindset that is very common among many white Americans - that somehow a black person is exceptional if they possess the same attributes that white people are just assumed to have."

How do you know he assumes all white people have these qualities? I grew up around white people who are not very articulate at all, I certainly don't make that assumption.

Wow - you quote me directly saying, "a mindset that is very common among many white Americans" and then in the next paragraph, you demand to know how I assume that "all white people have these qualities." I'm not going to chase after straw men that you set up, so there's no need to answer that question.

"So if I refer to Stephen Hawking as "smart" or LeBron James as "a good basketball player" I'm being insulting? That conclusion may be obvious from looking at the careers and background of those two men, but how is it insulting to point that out?"

If you said that Stephen Hawking was the first mainstream white scientist who was smart, yes, that would be insulting. If you said that LeBron James was the first mainstream black athlete who was a good basketball player, that would be insulting. If Stephen Hawking and other white scientists were consistently referred to as smart when black scientists with similar backgrounds were not consistently identified as such, that would be insulting. If you referred to Stephen Hawking and LeBron James as smart and a good basketball player, respectively as if these were unusual characteristics for people in their race, that would be insulting.

"All a flap like this does is make the equality movement look bad. It's a fact that many white people will react to this as "what, are you kidding me?" How do you expect to win these people over (and you need them)? I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying that's how it is . . . Complaining about these comments will not move white people to be sympathetic to you. This will not foster a massive social justice movement. This is a fact. I'm not saying it's right."

Why do you keep insisting that blacks raising this issue somehow are hurting the "equality movement" or upsetting whites to the point that they won't make any further effort to work to improve the situation? Do you really believe that if we just shut up and behave and don't make waves with white folk, that everything will move along much faster? And why do you place the burden of social change on blacks and blame us if whites decide not to engage in it?

FYI - I'm not trying to "move white people to be sympathetic to" me. I EXPECT white people to behave better than they do and when they don't, I will call them on it. America is not some charity hospital for black people run by white folks who will mete out equality, dignity and rights to us if we just behave and don't upset them. This is MY country, too and I have every right to expect to be treated with courtesy and equality and I'm not going to just go away and shut up because my speaking up might make white people uncomfortable. If white folks are offended by my expressing my expectations, that is THEIR problem, not mine.

"I understand that you feel offended because of the connotations behind the term "articulate." I am not disputing that it is ok to express that offense, but it's not helpful to harp on it like you do as if this is some grand injustice."

I'm not "harping" on the use of a word. I am trying to help some supposedly progressive but sadly ignorant and close-minded people understand why this entire issue has meaning to blacks and others who do get it. The refusal of some people to even make an effort to understand the situation and where we're coming from and their insistance upon defending the indefensible and condescending accusations that those of us who are discussing it of making a big deal out of nothing or setting back the cause of civil rights are doing far more to stall progress in America.

It is obvious that you just don't and probably won't ever understand where we're coming from, so I'm not going to bother trying to educate you further. But even if you don't get it, I hope you will at least respect that many people DO feel this way and stop trying to tell us that our perspective is just flat out wrong and refrain from any further lectures about how blacks should behave in order to get white people to be nicer to us.

[CTLawGuy]

46. obviously you feel passionately

and yes you've taught me. I will now never refer to any black person as "articulate," I'll tell you that much.


Be sure to let me know of any other compliments I am not to give to black people.

[beaconess]

50. No, I think I won't

But if the degree of ignorance, condescension and downright obnoxiousness demonstrated in your posts is any indication of how you interact personally with blacks, I'm sure that the next black person you deign to "compliment" face-to-face will be more than happy to set you straight.

As for me, I'm not going to waste any more of my time on you.

[CTLawGuy]

58. you know me oh so well

Thanks for basically calling me a racist. You know what I don't care. I cannot win in this. I know I am not a racist and I interact with black people just fine. Have a wonderful day.

[Dean Martin]

51. Nice?

Biden specifically mentioned Obama as an African American who is articulate. How is that not at the very least prejudiced?
He didn't just say "Here is a guy who is clean and articulate", he said here is an AFRICAN AMERICAN who is clean and articulate. That immediately says to anyone of that racial background that other African American candidates who have come before them have not been clean and articulate. If that's not racist or prejudiced, I don't know what is.

Geesh.

[beaconess]

52. But he didn't say the "N-word" and he took a breath between "African American" and "articulate"

and he wasn't wearing a white hood, so no harm, no foul.

And how DARE you criticize him and empathize with the black rabble-rousers who refuse to be grateful that Biden paid one of their own a compliment! You're part of the reason that race relations are in such a sorry state today!

:sarcasm:

[Dean Martin]

53. I know.......

I've drawn fire from my fellow whites for daring to criticize my race for being one of the most destructive forces against humanity in general on this planet.

For daring to say that other cultures should just shrug off 2 to 3,000 years of slavery, exterminations, land stealings, culture theft, and just accept that "is the way things are."

And I particularly draw fire for accusing these (well, I had to pause so I wouldn't type insults) same people for just not getting it when I try to explain these things to them.

At least I don't get weird looks for being with my girlfriend (who my parents have accepted wholeheartedly! :D ), but I do get some weird looks for being a big fan of Dave Chapelle, Beyonce, and Mary J Blige. Actually, an amusing side note. A couple of guys when their wives weren't around expressed envy toward me, and later made comments about desiring Beyonce when talking about her, but they clammed up when their wives came back, or when other people came within hearing distance.

And almost every time I run into a fellow Caucasian who likes Chapelle, they almost always love his "black white supremist" skit from his first season better than any of his other stuff.

But I'm digressing........

I grew up in an almost all white little town, but for some reason I never bought into the garbage I was around growing up. Once when I was about 8 or 9 the KKK marched through our town. I heard the grownups (not my mom however, dad wasn't around) make racist comments and later on when I became a teenager I started challenging them. I'd get responses like "When you grow up and have to go to the city and work with them, you'll change your tune." Well, I grew up and went to the city, went to work in a factory, and at the time had more black friends than white friends. I just wanted to listen to music and have fun, and I guess that rubbed off onto other people and they picked up on that. Later on at some point I started studying history, particularly slavery, what the Europeans did to other cultures, what the U.S. did to Native Americans, Hawaii, and other cultures, and it angered me so much I can't express my feelings.

There is an excellent book called "Makes Me Wanna Holler" by Nathan McCall I think all white folks should read. Obama's "Dreams of My Father" is another one. "Black Indians" about the African Americans accepted into Native American tribes (does anyone here know that Florida would not have been settled by even the Seminoles had it not been for the expertise of escaped slaves?) is another one that ought to be required reading. The answer I get the most from other whites is "But I don't care about African history." Or any other cultural history for that matter. And that's precisely one of the reasons so many whites just do not and I fear will never ever understand why these issues are so important and why they will be issues for years and years to come.

Yes, slavery has existed forever and Africans have enslaved other Africans, and Africans sold other Africans into European slavery. But the Europeans (Portugual, Spain, France, England, the Dutch), then the Americans have done so much damage. 3,000 years of cultural genocide, slavery and land stealing cannot be undone in a mere 40 years of civil rights. It just can't, and there's no way for a white person to know or understand what a person of these cultures experiences or suffers.

[fuzzyball]

13. Almost all spelling bee's are won by non-whites....does that make

whites inferior in languages/learning/vocabulary/intelligence?

[spooky3]

38. that's not true, according to a quick googling of recent winners

There are lots of white winners of spelling bees.

[Doctor_J]

14. I regularly call Wesley Clark "articulate"

sorry to all you white people - especially Arkansans - who are insulted by that :eyes:

[damntexdem]

15. Have to ask Stephen Colbert about that one.

;-)

[beaconess]

19. kick

:kick:

[cadmium]

22. Can we disagree? I am totally aware

of the implications of the term "articulate" and the diminishing interpretation of the modifier "clean". I seriously don't believe that Biden meant either of those in the negative way they are being spun. Obama is exceptionally articulate. If he was white people would still be commenting on his power of expression using the term articulate. By saying that he is clean I think Biden is saying that he is free from scandal and baggage. If negative that could be a comment on his inexperience but I really doubt it has anything to do with race. Do you really think that Biden is using these words with a racial overtone?

[Karenina]

24. See if this post clarifies HOW the remarks were heard...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=107387&mesg_id=115382

[CTLawGuy]

34. if Obama were white

then a bunch of assumptions about the comments that are made simply because he is black would not be made. In fact the comments would pass with a yawn.

I actually heard the audio of the comments. There was a SIGNIFICANT pause between "the first mainstream African American" and "who is articulate, clean and good looking."

[beaconess]

36. If Obama were white, the comment wouldn't have been made in the first place.

If you want to take race out of the equation, you've got to remove it from both sides. It was Biden who first injected race into the discussion by bringing up Obama's race as a preface to his comments about his abilities.

[CTLawGuy]

45. race came into the first part

where he said Obama was the first "mainstream African American" (which I take to mean first one which the media gives a chance to win). Then there was a significant pause. Then he says he's "clean", "articulate" etc. No race mentioned in that second part.

[beaconess]

47. Um - it was the same sentence!

Sorry, but I think you're trying WAY to hard to justify Biden's comments and to suggest that anyone who saw someting racial in them - just because his comments about Obama specifically referred to his race - is somehow picking on him. Trying to separate out clauses of a sentence because he paused between them, and insisting they are unconnected or that someone with Biden's experience in public speaking was speaking in complete non-sequiturs makes no sense whatever.

Bottom line - it was Biden, not those who are responding to him, unecessarily injected race into the discussion. If you're unhappy that this issue has become racialized, you need to direct your frustration to Biden, not me.

[CTLawGuy]

48. I'm trying WAY too hard?

who is the one turning a compliment into a mini-scandal?

Do you think Biden meant to go out there and insult an entire race of people?

That's a GREAT way to win the Dem nomination... 50 years ago in Alabama.

Yes he was talking off the cuff, we all do it sometimes.

[Dean Martin]

54. why did race have to come into the statement at all?

If it wasn't at the very least an ignorant statement that wasn't given any thought before it was uttered?

[CTLawGuy]

59. You don't agree that Obama is remarkable as the first black

candidate that, according to the media and the CW, has a chance to win the presidency of the United States. You think it doesn't make sense for him to mention he is African American?

[Dean Martin]

62. I think he's the best candidate I've ever seen, regardless of race

Race has no issue in the matter at all in my opinion. Obama is the best candidate I've seen in my lifetime, whether he's black, white, red, brown, green or purple. I don't think it is necessary to mention race.

[Dean Martin]

55. beaconess is right

You don't hear anyone saying Hillary is articulate, or Edwards is articulate.

And you'll NEVER hear anyone saying GW is articulate! Trying to interject a bit of humor.

[paulk]

23. I never saw it as Biden calling Obama, as a black person,

"articulate". It seemed pretty clear to me, listening to the actual audio, that the second half of what he said referred to Obama as a politician. All those things - articulate, sharp, clean (politically), and good looking are definite advantages for a candidate.

If everything anybody says about Obama is going to be interpreted through the lens of his race, then it's going to be a long campaign.

[beaconess]

26. If we're going to have to parse and analyze everything that's said about Obama, as you have

in order to understand that the racial insensitivity apparent on its face was really something else altogether, it's going to be a REALLY long campaign.

Biden is a grown-assed man and a politician with a wealth of experience. If his comments have to be studied this carefully to determine what he really and what he really meant wasn't what the plain reading of his comments would lead you to believe, the problem lies with him, not with anyone interpreting things "through the lens of {Obama's} race."

[spooky3]

39. I'm not sure whether someone else has already made this point:

I think the context of Biden's remarks was interesting. For his white competitors (Edwards, Clinton), he seemed to make negative comments along the lines of Rethug talking points. Why did he not do the same for Obama? Ahh, but in some sense he did do the same thing, but just cloaked it, consciously or not, in what he thought would be "politically correct" language, damning with faint praise. It's possible that he thinks more highly of Obama than of Clinton and Edwards, but if he did, why didn't he make reference to Obama's positions with which he agrees, and not to Obama's being "articulate and clean" (vs. "(Edwards') not knowing what he is talking about")? If he had made nothing but positive comments about all of his competitors (as a smart candidate would on this occasion) I think whether he was being racist might have been more ambiguous.

[paulk]

40. as far as I'm concerned, you're the one parsing and

analyzing. There is no way an objective look at what Biden said, (and I do encourage everyone to listen to the actual audio), can conclude that Biden is a racist, or that he meant to make a racist comment.

If the liberal PC police insist on finding racism under every rock, then it's not only going to be a long campaign, it's going to be a campaign that Obama will lose. This is a racist country, and if the campaign turns on race as an issue - well, people don't like being called racist, whether it's true from your POV or not. They will tune out Obama on the real issues that should determine a President.

[beaconess]

41. Since I have never accused Biden of being a racist or making a racist comment

your post is nothing but a strawman, which merits no response.

If you want to address the points that I've actually made, I'll be glad to discuss this with you further.

[paulk]

42. the article you posted is clear in it's implications

and you are clear throughout this thread in your agreement with the sentiments expressed in the article.


-------------------


I did address your points.

[beaconess]

43. Wow - you criticize people for reading too much into Biden's comments

and then you turn right around and accuse me of calling Biden a racist - even though I have repeatedly said that I do not believe he is - because I agreed with the sentiments in an article that you believe "implied" he was even though the article made no such claim.

Interesting.

[Kablooie]

49. He IS black therefore however HE talks is how black people talk.

Also how Bush talks is how white people talk.

Kinda makes ya wanta just shut up some days, doesn't it?

[Karenina]

56. On "sounding white"

In my early teens upon being challenged about my speech patterns, I responded, "I'm black, this is how I speak, so this is also how blcak people speak." I came away from that encounter with a handprint on my face and a swollen lip. Being "articulate" does have its pitfalls.

[Kablooie]

60. I think the real issue is that Obama is more erudite and articulate most other senators. Period.

[laureloak]

61. That's total BS. I admire articulate people and I

frequently compliment speakers on their ability to form thoughts quickly and deliver them in a captivating manner. I use the word "articulate". Too bad for them if they can't take a compliment.