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Has your Prez Candidate taken a "STAND" and done something "COURAGEOUS" of note?

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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 02:22 AM
Original message
Has your Prez Candidate taken a "STAND" and done something "COURAGEOUS" of note?
and what was the risk to themselves in doing so, and what were the benefits and to whom?

I am referring to John Edward's theme in his speech the DNC Winter meeting.

It was an interesting theme and it has appeal....and so I ask this about each candidate:

What "stand" has your Prez Candidate taken that was "courageous", and what were the risks to them, and what were the benefits and to whom......and why do you consider it courageous?

If more than one thing, great!
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DianeG5385 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 02:29 AM
Response to Original message
1. I found his speech "canned" but like the guy
Edited on Sat Feb-03-07 02:30 AM by DianeG5385
I support Clark, however, because he has been consistent in his opposition to the Iraq war from day one and I think this is very courageous given the oppressive atmosphere on dissent at the time during the build up to the war.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 02:37 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I support Wes Clark too!
Edited on Sat Feb-03-07 02:44 AM by FrenchieCat
and know of many ways in which he stood up courageously and the risks were enormous....

I think that it is swell advice to anyone....Stand up and be courageous and take the hit. If we all did that, this would be a wonderful world!

:hi:
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
38. What she said! Very brave indeed and could have hurt his
chances to even run for President if the war went well... Lots to lose!

He was also one of the first to say Gays should be in the military... that took real guts and he knew it would tick off many fundies and fellow military people etc.

He posed on the cover of some Gay magazine. IIRC Wow! Nervy!

He was one of the first to really out and out criticize bush*...even before Gore!



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AlGore-08.com Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 03:25 AM
Response to Original message
3. Gore has a lot; the biggest two were probably his campaign against global warming & opposing the war
Gore's been a leader on fighting global warming since he first entered Congress in 1978. The right used that for decades to portray him as a left wing nutcase. The press were equally merciless, especially during the 2000 election. The benefits are kind of obvious now - - he's singlehandedly changed the international debate on global warming. Something might just be done to save the human race because he didn't care how much money Exxon-Mobile spent trying to drown him out.

And he gave his first speech against the Iraq war about three weeks before the Congress voted to authorize the invasion. At the time, Gore was the front runner for the 2004 Democratic nomination, which a huge lead on the other potential candidates. It would have been a hell of a lot "easier" for him to have supported the invasion, or avoided the issue. He was ridiculed for this position for several years, until the majority of Americans also opposed the war.

Then there are other things like taking the lead role in the creation of the Internet (and funding the wiring of public schools and libraries) that Gore got cr*p for throughout his career.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Very good and true......and the benefits are many!
:thumbsup:
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lesab Donating Member (82 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. ABSOLUTELY
I agree 100%. Gore is the one for me.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
19. This is very true. n/t
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 03:40 AM
Response to Original message
4. My Candidate? What Candidate? My Candidates Keep Dropping Out
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 03:43 AM
Response to Original message
5. Clark's got plenty moral courage. For instance, his take on the Assault Weapons Ban
It's a no-brainer on the left. But the righties just hate that. To them Clark says, 'You want guns? Join the Army. We've got 'em.'
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-06-07 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #5
45. A no-brainer, you say?
I just finished up a big ol' thread about Clark and his comments on semi-automatics, and I don't have the energy to go through it again right now. Suffice it to say that a lot of lefties are understanding the need for the Second Amendment to be upheld and preserved.

Amendment II Democrats
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Apollo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
7. Al Gore criticizing Dems in Congress
In January 2006, Al Gore accused some Democratic members of Congress of "going along to get along", and of failing to defend the Constitution. The politically "safe" thing for him to do at that time would have been to put all the blame on the Bu$h-Cheney adminstration and on the Republican majorities in the House and Senate. It took courage for Al Gore to criticize the "moderate" or "bipartisan" wing of his own party ten months ahead of last year's Congressional elections.

Al Gore speaking at Liberty Hall in Washington DC on January 16th, 2006

The executive branch time and again has co-opted Congress' role. And too often Congress has been a willing accomplice in the surrender of its own power.

Look, for example, at the congressional role in overseeing this massive, four-year eavesdropping campaign that, on its face, seemed so clearly to violate the Bill of Rights.

The president says he informed Congress. What he really means is that he talked with the chairman and ranking member of the House and Senate intelligence committees and, sometimes, the leaders of the House and Senate.

This small group, in turn, claims they were not given the full facts, though at least one of the committee leaders handwrote a letter of concern to the vice president.

And, though I sympathize with the awkward position, the difficult position in which these men and women were placed, I cannot disagree with the Liberty Coalition when it says that Democrats as well as Republicans in the Congress must share the blame for not taking sufficient action to protest and seek to prevent what they consider a grossly unconstitutional program.

Many did. Moreover, in the Congress as a whole, both House and Senate, the enhanced role of money in the re-election process, coupled with the sharply diminished role for reasoned deliberation and debate, has produced an atmosphere conducive to pervasive institutionalized corruption that some have fallen vulnerable to.

The Abramoff scandal is but the tip of a giant iceberg threatening the integrity of our legislative branch of government.

And it is the pitiful state of our legislative branch which primarily explains the failure of our vaunted checks and balances to prevent the dangerous overreach by the executive branch now threatening a radical transformation of the American system.

I call upon members of Congress in both parties to uphold your oath of office and defend the Constitution. Stop going along to get along. Start acting like the independent and co-equal branch of American government that you are supposed to be under the Constitution of our country.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/16/AR2006011600779.html


Let's all find ways to show our support for Al Gore! :)
www.algore.com
www.algore.org
www.draftgore.com - Sign the petition! :)
www.draftgore2008.org
www.patriotsforgore.com

:kick:
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Amen!
My hoped for candidate has done so much and pretty much everyone here knows what. I hope so fervently that Al runs. It may quash the urges of some to kick off dumbass pissing contests. A girl can hope.

Julie
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More Than A Feeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 10:58 AM
Response to Original message
9. When I had one, he had made a career out of taking stands.
Come back, Russ! Come back!
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
11. Here's one about Clark.....who's taken a stand .......
Wes' attempts to intervene in Rwanda is a good start....that's where 800,000 Black People were macheted to death, and his later advocacy for intervention in Bosnia (where 200,000 died) and Kosovo (Washington finally listened).....


The United States, however, wouldn't invade Rwanda, although Clark pushed his mentor, General John Shalikashvili, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, to push for an intervention. Shalikashvili declined after Clark told him twenty thousand troops would be required, and as Clark says now, "I watched as we stood by as eight hundred thousand people were hacked to death by machete."
http://www.esquire.com/features/articles/2003/030801_mfe_clark_4.html


http://www.crookedtimber.org/archives/001104.html
Clark was almost alone in pushing for a humanitarian intervention in Rwanda.

General Clark is one of the heroes of Samantha Power's book. She introduces him on the second page of her chapter on Rwanda and describes his distress on learning about the genocide there and not being able to contact anyone in the Pentagon who really knew anything about it and/or about the Hutu and Tutsi.

She writes, "He frantically telephoned around the Pentagon for insight into the ethnic dimension of events in Rwanda. Unfortunately, Rwanda had never been of more than marginal concern to Washington's most influential planners" (p. 330) .

He advocated multinational action of some kind to stop the genocide. "Lieutenant General Wesley Clark looked to the White House for leadership. 'The Pentagon is always going to be the last to want to intervene,' he says. 'It is up to the civilians to tell us they want to do something and we'll figure out how to do it.' But with no powerful personalities or high-ranking officials arguing forcefully for meaningful action, midlevel Pentagon officials held sway, vetoing or stalling on hesitant proposals put forward by midlevel State Department and NSC officials" (p. 373).

According to Power, General Clark was already passionate about humanitarian concerns, especially genocide, before his appointment as Supreme Allied Commander of NATO forces in Europe.

----------------
Waiting for the General

By Elizabeth Drew
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/16795
Clark displeased the defense secretary, Bill Cohen, and General Hugh Shelton, then chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, by arguing strenuously that—contrary to Clinton's decision— the option of using ground troops in Kosovo should remain open. But the problem seems to have gone further back.ome top military leaders objected to the idea of the US military fighting a war for humanitarian reasons. Clark had also favored military action against the genocide in Rwanda.


and did help save 1.4 million Muslim Albanians....

Samantha Powers.....

Details his efforts in behalf of the Dayton Peace Accords and his brilliant command of NATO forces in Kosovo. Her chapter on Kosovo ends, "The man who probably contributed more than any other individual to Milosvevic's battlefield defeat was General Wesley Clark. The NATO bombing campaign succeeded in removing brutal Serb police units from Kosovo, in ensuring the return on 1.3 million Kosovo Albanians, and in securing for Albanians the right of self-governance.

Yet in Washington Clark was a pariah. In July 1999 he was curtly informed that he would be replaced as supreme allied commander for Europe. This forced his retirement and ended thirty-four years of distinguished service. Favoring humanitarian intervention had never been a great career move."
http://www.crookedtimber.org/archives/001104.html



and so he lost his job of 34 years....but I guess that can happen when you stand up to do the right thing, no matter the consequences....!

Successive American presidents had done an absolutely terrific job pledging never again, and remembering the holocaust, but ultimately when genocide confronted them, they weighed the costs and the benefits of intervention, and they decided that the risks of getting involved were actually far greater than the other non-costs from the standpoint of the American public, of staying uninvolved or being bystanders. That changed in the mid-1990s, and it changed in large measure because General Clark rose through the ranks of the American military.

The mark of leadership is not to standup when everybody is standing, but rather to actually stand up when no one else is standing. And it was Pentagon reluctance to intervene in Rwanda, and in Bosnia, that actually made it much, much easier for political leaders to turn away. When the estimates started coming out of the Pentagon that were much more constructive, and proactive, and creative, one of the many deterrents to intervention melted away.

http://www.kiddingonthesquare.com/2004/01/index.html

more....
http://www.rapidfire-silverbullets.com/2006/12/kosovo_was_about_genocide_not.html
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Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. "The mark of leadership is not to standup when everybody is standing"
"but rather to actually stand up when no one else is standing." That's a great quote.

(I still can't get that Eminem Slim Shady song out of my head!)
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CarbonDate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. You mean like Hillary Clinton....
...calling for Rumsfeld's resignation after everybody else had?

Or Edwards speaking against the war when it became unpopular (but still supporting military action against Iran)?

Actually, Kucinich has the kind of audacity that Powers refers to here. The problem is that even when he's standing, he still looks like he's sitting. ;) Personally, I'm leaning towards Kucinich pending Gen. Clark's announcement. There are some other candidates I could go for if they convince me, but they all have a lot of ground to cover.
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Luckyduck Donating Member (434 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #12
21. That would be Kucinich
Eminem knows a leader when he sees one

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ripple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
13. He opposed the war at a time when it was not politically expedient
to do so. Now, a lot of others wish they had done the same.

He has also set a date for complete troop withdrawal from Iraq, a date for universal health care to be fully implemented, and he isn't taking any shit off Fox News.

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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Great! So tell us the risk to himself, and who benefits
with this stand?

Cause that's part of the exercise!

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ripple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #14
36. Fair enough
With the stance Obama took against the war, the risks were that he would be pigeon-holed as unpatriotic and weak on terror. Remember, Bushco and right-wing media were flinging that label hard at anyone who disagreed with the invasion. As far as who benefits from his stance, we all might have benefited if more had trusted their gut, rather than basing their decision on how their opposition to the war might impact their poll numbers. In the here and now, we can ALL benefit from his unambiguous stance if he's our candidate in 2008. He's one of the few candidates that the opposition won't be able to tag as a "flip-flopper" (I hate that term, BTW).

He has also taken a risk by setting a date for troop withdrawal, as even some democrats in Congress believe this will "embolden the enemy". Of course, that's absurd, but that will be the criticism he faces. So again, he's risking being portrayed as being "weak on terror". As far as who benefits from his stance, we all do, especially the troops in Iraq who are being used as human pawns.

With regard to universal health care, he risks the "socialized medicine" fear-mongering the righty-tighties are so fond of. Obviously, we will all benefit in the long run- morally, as well as tangibly- if every American can receive affordable health care.

The Fox news thing is an obvious risk, as Rupert Murdoch owns a shit load of media outlets, in addition to Fox. By cutting off Fox, he might very well be cutting off valuable media exposure in markets that could benefit him. We all benefit from his stance, though, particularly if it forces media outlets to be held accountable for what they try to pass off as news.

I hope this is the sort of cost/benefit analysis you were looking for, FrenchieCat.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
15. Where are the Edwards supporters on this?
After all it was his phrase of inpiration that I am quoting.

Will they ignore this post and hopes it goes away?

I'm sure someone has his tale of courage.

At least one story.....
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venable Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
16. it's a good question
and I am going to answer it in something like a generality, which won't go over well, but there you have it.

I think the key line in Edward's speech was: we don't need to re-define the Democratic Party, we need to reclaim it.

The old Democratic core is not very sexy, and it avoids the middle way espoused by the DLC, but it is where Edwards has pitched his tent..

Edwards has rejected the triangulating middle way wholesale, in spite of the fact that it got Clinton elected twice, and is running as an old school, unabashed liberal/populist. This requires making sure that social programs are financed, even if it means higher taxes, or delaying the balancing of the budget. That is risky, but he does not back down from it. Stephanopolous was noticeably taken aback when Edwards said this a few weeks ago, and Edwards didn't flinch. Many will not accept this putting social programs ahead of tax cuts, but Edwards wil stick with it.

The risk to him is that he alienates the Emmanuel branch of the Party, a powerful branch.

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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. "The risk to himself is to alienate the Emmanuel branch of the party"?
Would'nt that be Hillary's branch.

Sorry, don't think that's a risk, its an inevitability....cause he running against her.

But nice try.

So what has he "Done".....not what did he say the other day? :boring:
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venable Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #20
32. not sure I know what you mean
I'll just say he rates the most liberal amongst the candidates, and let's call that a risk when the word is anathema to the media and the population.

(though I think the American public, deep within them, are liberal to the core)
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venable Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #20
34. here's a risk, without question.
http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2007-02-04T163021Z_01_N04358318_RTRUKOC_0_US-USA-POLITICS-EDWARDS.xml&WTmodLoc=NewsHome-C1-topNews-5

show me another candidate in the last very long time who has had the courage to announce in advance that he would raise taxes.
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CarbonDate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-03-07 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
18. Great video from Kucinich:
http://kucinich.us/node/2242/play

Says it better than I could.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. Kewl.....
I'll watch.
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Luckyduck Donating Member (434 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. Kucinich has been speaking the truth about the Bush adminstration
since the beginning.

He led the effort against the war in Iraq and the patriot act, back when many were calling him unpatriotic for standing up for the truth.

He is the one standing up and speaking the truth about Iran, and the need for Impeachment.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 04:48 AM
Response to Original message
24. Clark has done some other things too.....
WESLEY CLARK SLAMS MEDIA CONSOLIDATION
"I don't think it is in the American public interest to further consolidate the media." Answering this reporter's question, the candidate said media consolidation "is damaging to putting out diverse opinions and fostering public dialogue. ... We need to distribute the ownership in media. We need to have the fairness in broadcasting rules put back in place."
http://www.fradical.com/Presidential_candidate_slams_media_violence.htm


and then the media started saying Wesley Who? :shrug:

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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 04:49 AM
Response to Original message
25. Also this from Wes Clark...when he started talking publicly about PNAC....


General Wesley Clark, the late entry into the race for the Democratic nomination for president, is making what critics called a “bizarre,” “crackpot” attack on a small Washington policy organization and on a citizens group that helped America win the Cold War.

In a Tuesday interview with Joshua Micah Marshall posted yesterday on the Web site talkingpointsmemo.com, General Clark gave his evaluation of the Clinton presidency. He said that the Clinton administration,“in an odd replay of the Carter administration, found itself chained to the Iraqi policy — promoted by the Project for a New American Century— much the same way that in the Carter administration some of the same people formed the Committee on the Present Danger which cut out from the Carter administration the ability to move forward on SALT II.”
http://daily.nysun.com/Repository/getFiles.asp?Style=OliveXLib:ArticleToMail&Type=text/html&Path=NYS/2003/10/02&ID=Ar00100



Wesley Clark's Conspiracy Theory
The general tells Wolf Blitzer about the neoconservative master plan.
by Matthew Continetti
12/01/2003 2:00:00 PM

Yesterday on CNN's "Late Edition," for example, Clark said--not for the first time--that the Bush administration's war plans extend far beyond Iraq.

"I do know this," Clark told Wolf Blitzer. "In the gossip circles in Washington, among the neoconservative press, and in some of the statements that Secretary Rumsfeld and Secretary Wolfowitz have made, there is an inclination to extend this into Syria and maybe Lebanon." What's more, Clark added, "the administration's never disavowed this intent."

Clark has made his charge a central plank of his presidential campaign. Clark writes in his book, "Winning Modern Wars," that in November 2001, during a visit to the Pentagon, he spoke with "a man with three stars who used to work for me," who told him a "five-year plan" existed for military action against not only Afghanistan and Iraq, but also "Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Iran, Somalia, and Sudan." Clark has embellished this story on the campaign trail, going so far as to say, "There's a list of countries."

Clark's proof? None. He never saw the list. But, the general recently told the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette, "You only have to listen to the gossip around Washington and to hear what the neoconservatives are saying, and you will get the flavor of this."

You probably get the flavor of what Wesley Clark is saying, too. It tastes, as THE SCRAPBOOK pointed out three weeks ago, like baloney. And sometimes, as in the case of yesterday's interview with Blitzer, it tastes like three-week-old baloney.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/445cqeal.asp




Bush used 9/11 as a pretext to implement Iraq invasion plan
Clark told me how he learned of a secret war scheme within the Bush Administration, of which Iraq was just one piece.
Shortly after 9/11, Clark visited the Pentagon, where a 3-star general confided that Rumsfeld's team planned to use the 9/11 attacks as a pretext for going to war against Iraq. Clark said, "Rather than searching for a solution to a problem, they had the solution, and their difficulty was to make it appear as though it were in response to the problem." Clark was told that the Bush team, unable or unwilling to fight the actual terrorists responsible for 9/11, had devised a 5-year plan to topple the regimes in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Iran, and Sudan.

Clark's central contention-that Bush used 9/11 as a pretext to attack Saddam-has been part of the public debate since well before the Iraq war. It is rooted in the advocacy of the Project for the New American Century, a neo-conservative think tank that had been openly arguing for regime change in Iraq since 1998.
Source: The New Yorker magazine, "Gen. Clark's Battles" Nov 17, 2003



Gen. Wes Clark layed out the PNAC mentality in a long article.

Here's some excerpts from Clark's article, "Broken Engagement"

During 2002 and early 2003, Bush administration officials put forth a shifting series of arguments for why we needed to invade Iraq. Nearly every one of these has been belied by subsequent events.
snip
Advocates of the invasion are now down to their last argument: that transforming Iraq from brutal tyranny to stable democracy will spark a wave of democratic reform throughout the Middle East, thereby alleviating the conditions that give rise to terrorism. This argument is still standing because not enough time has elapsed to test it definitively--though events in the year since Baghdad's fall do not inspire confidence.
snip
Just as they counseled President Bush to take on the tyrannies of the Middle East, so the neoconservatives in the 1980s and early 1990s advised Presidents Reagan and George H.W. Bush to confront the Soviet Union and more aggressively deploy America's military might to challenge the enemy.....
snip
As has been well documented, even before September 11, going after Saddam had become a central issue for them. Their "Project for a New American Century" seemed intent on doing to President Clinton what the Committee on the Present Danger had done to President Carter: push the president to take a more aggressive stand against an enemy, while at the same time painting him as weak.
snip
September 11 gave the neoconservatives the opportunity to mobilize against Iraq, and to wrap the mobilization up in the same moral imperatives which they believed had achieved success against the Soviet Union. Many of them made the comparison direct, in speeches and essays explicitly and approvingly compared the Bush administration's stance towards terrorists and rogue regimes to the Reagan administration's posture towards the Soviet Union.

And the neoconservative goal was more ambitious than merely toppling dictators: By creating a democracy in Iraq, our success would, in the president's words, "send forth the news from Damascus to Tehran--that freedom can be the future of every nation," and Iraq's democracy would serve as a beacon that would ignite liberation movements and a "forward strategy of freedom" around the Middle East.

This rhetoric is undeniably inspiring. We should have pride in our history, confidence in our principles, and take security in the knowledge that we are at the epicenter of a 228-year revolution in the transformation of political systems. But recognizing the power of our values also means understanding their meaning. Freedom and dignity spring from within the human heart. They are not imposed. And inside the human heart is where the impetus for political change must be generated.

The neoconservative rhetoric glosses over this truth and much else. Even aside from the administration's obvious preference for confronting terrorism's alleged host states rather than the terrorists themselves, it was a huge leap to believe that establishing democracies by force of Western arms in old Soviet surrogate states like Syria and Iraq would really affect a terrorist movement drawing support from anti-Western sentiment in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and elsewhere.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0405.clark.html



Apparently for the neoconservative civilians who are running the Iraq campaign, 9-11 was that catalyzing event—for they are now operating at full speed toward multiple, simultaneous wars. The PNAC documents can be found online at newamericancentury.org.

his new book, Winning Modern Wars, retired general Wesley Clarkcandidate for the Democratic presidential nomination, offered a window into the Bush serial-war planning. He writes that serious planning for the Iraq war had already begun only two months after the 9-11 attack, and adds:

I went back through the Pentagon in November 2001, one of the senior military staff officers had time for a chat. Yes, we were still on track for going against Iraq, he said. But there was more. This was being discussed as part of a five-year campaign plan, he said, and there were a total of seven countries, beginning with Iraq, then Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Iran, Somalia and Sudan. . . . I left the Pentagon that afternoon deeply concerned."

A five-year military campaign. Seven countries. How far has the White House taken this plan? And how long can the president keep the nation in the dark, emerging from his White House cocoon only to speak to us in slogans and the sterile language of pep rallies?
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0342,schanberg,47830,1.html


Was David Brooks “careful not to say that Bush or neocon critics are anti-Semitic?” David Brooks was careful, all right. You can see how “careful” he was in the passage which slimed Wesley Clark:

BROOKS: The full-mooners fixated on a think tank called the Project for the New American Century, which has a staff of five and issues memos on foreign policy. To hear these people describe it, PNAC is sort of a Yiddish Trilateral Commission, the nexus of the sprawling neocon tentacles.
We’d sit around the magazine guffawing at the ludicrous stories that kept sprouting, but belief in shadowy neocon influence has now hardened into common knowledge. Wesley Clark, among others, cannot go a week without bringing it up.
http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh010904.shtml



There are many legitimate reasons to criticize the foreign and defense policies of the Bush administration, but Winning Modern Wars would have us believe that the president dangerously derailed the nation’s security policy and diverted resources from the war on terrorism to the dead-end enterprise in Iraq. He blames Bush for everything he believes has gone wrong, and gives him no credit for anything that has gone right, including major steps toward transforming the US military from a Cold War force to one more suited to the current and likely future security environment.

In Clark’s world, vulnerability to terrorism is all George Bush’s fault. Of course, Bush had only been in office for eight months when Al Qaida struck on 9/11. The threat had been incubating during the Clinton years, but that administration had done little or nothing to address it. The most Clark can say about the Clinton administration’s inattention to the emerging terrorist threat is that "in retrospect, it clear that he could have done more."

Clark is a member in good standing of the "Bush lied" school - an outlook based on the claim that the president and his advisers had intended to invade Iraq from the very beginning, and knowingly deceived Congress and the American people in order to drag them into this unnecessary war. As evidence for this, he cites a 1998 letter from an organization called the Project for a New American Century (PNAC) calling on president Clinton to remove Saddam from power. Those who signed the letter included Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz.
http://www.ashbrook.org/publicat/oped/owens/04/clark.html



EXCERPTS FROM HARDBALL INTERVIEW 12/17/04

CLARK: ...I think, you know, a guy like Bill Kristol, what he sees is that Secretary Rumsfeld‘s plan is not unfolding the way that the neocons thought it should unfold in the Middle East. This was supposed to be like a scaffold. You know, you just go in there and carve out Saddam Hussein, boom, the people are liberated. And they‘re all democratic. And then the Syrians jump on board and say, hey, by golly, come and save us too. And then the Iranians and the Lebanese.

It hasn‘t worked that way, because what the neocons didn‘t understand is, that you don‘t get the kind of Democratic reform you want in the Middle East at the barrel of a gun. And they‘re holding Rumsfeld responsible for that. But really, it‘s a flawed conception.

MATTHEWS: That‘s interesting. You‘re the first person I‘ve heard say that, general. Because a lot of people look at it much more narrowly and they say the reason we‘re getting criticism of the general is there aren‘t enough troops there. He said he had enough troops, when really in reality, it was the conception that justified the low troop level. Is that your point? That you did not need a lot of troops, because you weren‘t going to face much of an insurgency.

CLARK: .....One is the point of the neocons, which is not military at all. It is the point of the operation and the fact that you could sort of go in there and lance the boil of Saddam Hussein, get him out of there and everything would turn out OK. And it hasn‘t.
http://securingamerica.com/node/60


More Wesley Clark speaking up about the PNAC plan being reported here...
http://www.cpa.org.au/garchve03/1160usplans.html

Wes Clark really is the man for the job to clean up the shitstorm we are now facing. He knows where all of the bodies are buried. Only Nixon could go to China....and so, it goes!





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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 07:09 AM
Response to Original message
26. I don't have a candidate this time
My last candidate stood up for gay rights, in particular civil unions, even as he had to wear a bullet proof vest while doing so. Since Edwards is getting flack here let me suggest one big courageous move by him. Running on an anti poverty program. No one seems to car about the poor anymore.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. What's the risk to Edwards.....as it seems to be working....and has
Edited on Sun Feb-04-07 07:21 AM by FrenchieCat
since he pitched it back in late 2003 (and an issue that helped Gore in 2000 as well)


But your post reminded me of something else that Clark's stood up about! His risk? His political future by doing something very controversial at the time!




Endorsement by the Washington Blade (largest Gay Newspaper)
http://www.aegis.com/news/wb/2004/WB040109.html
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. I wouldn't tout the Washington Blade
The editor who wrote that editoral was the same one who hired Gannon and is a well known Log Cabin Republican. More on point, the editoral is littered with outright distortions. Dean could have amended the Vermont Constitution. Romney never, as in not ever, supported civil unions except as part of a constitutional ban on same gender marriage. Conversely Dean issued a veto threat against a law banning same gender marriage and was against a constituional ban. It also lied about Gore's postion on gay rights. Gore favored a stand alone civil rights bill for gays and transgendered. That bill would have included both employment and housing. It would have had the same effect as amending the civil rights act.

Clark has spoken great words about gay rights. I would be happy to vote for him in the general. But I wouldn't trust the Blade to tell me who to vote for.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Do you have some additional information on that story......?
Thanks, if you do!
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. I am leaving for church right now
In a few hours I will see if I can find links about that editor.
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #29
37. In fairness he supposedly quit the GOP when they impeached Clinton
I will link you to a few articles which show him to be at best a very conservative independent.

http://www.nyblade.com/blog/index.cfm?blogger=2

http://www.indegayforum.org/staff/show/93.html

The first link is to a NY Blade article and the second is to a forum for which he wrote some columns.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Thanks! That was very thoughtfull & conscientious(?) of you to reply like this!
:hi:
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Also, Clark said things on CNN during the march to War that they didn't like
and ended up getting the boot for it!


More significant than Mr. Clark’s views on domestic policy are his willingness and capacity to speak out credibly against the Bush administration’s security policies. During his stint as a CNN commentator on the Iraq conflict, he skillfully critiqued Pentagon strategy and White House diplomacy without getting himself singed.
http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=15172




Straight talk or nothing for CNN's Dobbs

Retired Gen. Wesley Clark was a long-time CNN military analyst but there's one cable network host he didn't impress: Lou Dobbs. Clark was a guest on Dobb's business show during the Iraq war and the host felt the former NATO boss seemed to push his own political agenda rather than provide the straight military skinny on the Pentagon plan, reports our Mark Mazzetti. The result: Dobbs, who hosts "Lou Dobbs Tonight," told a conference of reporters and military brass last week that he barred Clark from his show for the remainder of the war.
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/politics/whispers/archive/august2003.htm




"THE GUY MUST HAVE A BEDROOM AT CNN,” my wife would joke. It seemed true, because at every hour of the day or night during the Iraq War, retired General Wesley K. Clark could be seen on the Cable News Network as a “military expert” criticizing the Bush Administration.

A quick victory in Iraq “was not going to happen,” he told viewers on March 25, shortly before the quickest blitzkrieg victory of its size in military history occurred. But his words doubtless brought comfort to the fans of a network slanted so far to the Left that the most asked question about its name is whether the “C” in CNN stands for Clinton, Castro or Communist News Network.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9522




Clark maybe a CNN analyst, but not for Lou Dobbs...

Retired Gen. Wesley Clark, who is mulling a presidential bid, gained significant attention for his analysis of the latest war in Iraq on CNN.

But now Clark will no longer be invited on CNN's "Lou Dobbs Tonight" because host Dobbs, a gave money to President Bush's campaign in 2000, said Clark recently came on his show and gave political opinions instead of analysis, reports US News and World Report today
http://www.politicsnh.com/archives/briefs/2003/august/i...





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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. No problem
I like much about Clark I am worried about two things. One his lack of electoral experience which frankly showed last time (skipping Iowa was a huge mistake) and the fact that many of his fundraisers last time were tied to the Clintons and we know who they are backing this time. He may be incapable of getting of the ground unless he can replicate Dean's success with fundraising.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. You are right to some degree about Clark's fundraising ability....
however, if you were to look it up, you would find that Wes Clark had more donations under $200 than any other candidate in the primaries exception for Howard Dean. In addition, Wes Clark did get hollywood donations....

I think that the way that it works, using Kerry and Edwards as examples....one needs money only up until they gain some momentum by actually getting a lot of votes. Both on our '04 ticket really raised less money than just about everyone else in the race....what occurred in Iowa in Free Publicity is what catapulted them in terms of donations from that day forward.

So yes, fundraising is important....but in the long run, Iowa, Nevada and NH are even more important.

Cheers! :toast:
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 07:52 AM
Response to Original message
30. I have another one on Clark!
But this is more about personal courage.....

based on Richard Holbrook’s book, “To End a War”.


In August 1995, the general—three stars, working as J-5 for the Joint Chiefs—went to Bosnia as part of the negotiating team Ambassador Richard Holbrooke had put together to end the civil war that had resulted in the massacre of as many as eight thousand Muslim men and boys at the town of Srebrenica the month before. In Belgrade, Clark had met for the first time Serbian president Slobodan Milosevic, who was sponsoring the Bosnian Serbs. Now the team had to travel to Sarajevo. Told that the airport in Sarajevo was too dangerous to fly into, the team decided to drive and asked Milosevic to guarantee its safety on a road held by Bosnian Serbs. Milosevic did not, and so the team wound up taking a fortified Humvee and an armored personnel carrier on a pitched, narrow, winding mountain road notoriously vulnerable to Serb machine-gun fire. Clark and Holbrooke went in the Humvee, the rest in the APC.

In his book, the general describes what happened this way: "At the end of the first week we had a tragic accident on Mount Igman, near Sarajevo. were killed when the French armored personnel carrier in which they were riding broke through the shoulder of the road and tumbled several hundred meters down a steep hillside."

It is not until one reads Holbrooke's book, To End a War, that one finds out that after the APC went off the road, Clark grabbed a rope, anchored it to a tree stump, and rappelled down the mountainside after it, despite the gunfire that the explosion of the APC set off, despite the warnings that the mountainside was heavily mined, despite the rain and the mud, and despite Holbrooke yelling that he couldn't go. It is not until one brings the incident up to the general that one finds out that the burning APC had turned into a kiln, and that Clark stayed with it and aided in the extraction of the bodies.
http://www.rapidfire-silverbullets.com/2007/01/who_fits_the_profile_in_courag.html#more
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skipos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
33. I wouldn't say Richardson is my candidate yet
Edited on Sun Feb-04-07 09:11 AM by skipos
I'm waiting to see what Clark does. However, Richardson has done some impressive things that no one else in Bush Inc was ever going to do...

"In January 2007 he brokered an agreement between President al-Bashir and leaders of several rebel factions in Darfur, the western Sudanese region, to a 60-day cease-fire. The cease-fire never became effective, however, with allegations of breaches on all sides.<11>"

It's nice to see him standing up for a diplomacy (something Bush Inc hates), when he could just be sitting on his duff in NM...

"Bill Richardson has been nominated four times for the Nobel Peace Prize (in 1995, 1997, 2000, and 2001)<12> for negotiating the release of hostages, American servicemen, and political prisoners in North Korea, Iraq, and Cuba.<13>"

edit: these are from wikipedia.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
35. Kucinich voted against Iraq War Resolution, and Obama was against the war from the gitgo
Kucinich was savaged by the Democratic establishment for not playing along and for not standing alongside Speaker Gephardt in the Rose Garden as the Democrats capitulated to Bush on the war.
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The Count Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #35
43. Obama didn't really risk much at the time - it was the question.
But I do appreciate his good judgment on the war.
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The Count Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-04-07 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
42. I don't have a candidate yet, but a few of them did - one of them get my vote
Edited on Sun Feb-04-07 03:09 PM by The Count
None of the people who sent people to die to further their political career will get it. NOT AGAIN!!!!
I'd say - Clark, Gore, Kuchinic can get a yes here.
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